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  #61  
Old 10-22-2012
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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tritri, you got a good point here:

Quote:
Originally Posted by tritri View Post
... because I finally understand how to turn body rotation into forward momentum. Now the trick is that everything has to be timed perfectly (legs, arms, rotation) for it to work properly.
Yes, if that is the quintessence, we can easily meet here.

And, Charles, yes, I didn't mean to insult you in any way, of course. And I appreciate your thoughtful post.
If you value my writing better than 'not too bad' then I am swimming not as welll as I am writing, indeed. I would never question your experience, which is a lot more substancial than mine. And as tritri pointed out, maybe we talk about the same thing. My personal take on rotation in freestyle is that it tends to be too large, and I try to limit it - not through limiting it but by trying to channel it into forward propulsion. This is something where I had difficulties if I were to explain how I am doing that.
Nevertheless - when we talk about propulsion from rotation - the step from your video where you rotate nicely but don't move forward at all to the assertion of just adding a magic element and than it is moving you forward - too big a step to be real. The propeller moves water or air by being rotated. No problem. But we are not shaped like propellers and the only part that we could pitch against the water - our hands - are already busy with some forward-backwards movement in the freestyle stroke.
I am not saying that rotation is bad, or is not reducing drag, or is not making energy usage efficient or is not making us swim faster all together or it is not the key to rhythm and effortless swimming, all that is ok and body rotation in freestyle is very important. But rotating a human body in the water does not move it forward or backwards. Yes, it is that simple for me. Some things are simple. And shouldn't get mixed up.
I thing sometimes people get carried away a little when they try to explain their experiential findings in swimming. Sometimes it simply is misunderstanding.

Happy rotation folks
and hang on in there...

Last edited by haschu33 : 10-22-2012 at 06:24 PM.
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  #62  
Old 10-22-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I don't know if anyone has ever carried out an experiment on how much propulsion a propeller creates at zero pitch angle. To my simple brain the answer has to be zero but a propeller at zero pitch angle will still disturb the air it passes through unless it's one of those propellers scientists are fond of that has zero thickness as well.

There is presumably an optimum angle for a hand and arm acting as a kind of propeller when sculling and I seem to remember that it is around 45 degrees, but of course when you scull out in front or under the shoulders or back at the hips you have to keep constantly changing the pitch in the well-known figure eight pattern.

Quite possibly sculling and propellers are completely irrelevant here because the swimmer in the clip isn't really sculling it seems to me but gently pushing back, with most of the force coming from the rotation - or is it just my imagination?
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  #63  
Old 10-22-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
tritri, you got a good point here:



Yes, if that is the quintessence, we can easily meet here.

And, Charles, yes, I didn't mean to insult you in any way, of course. And I appreciate your thoughtful post.
If you value my writing better than 'not too bad' then I am swimming not as welll as I am writing, indeed. I would never question your experience, which is a lot more substancial than mine. And as tritri pointed out, maybe we talk about the same thing. My personal take on rotation in freestyle is that it tends to be too large, and I try to limit it - not through limiting it but by trying to channel it into forward propulsion. This is something where I had difficulties if I were to explain how I am doing that.
Nevertheless - when we talk about propulsion from rotation - the step from your video where you rotate nicely but don't move forward at all to the assertion of just adding a magic element and than it is moving you forward - too big a step to be real. The propeller moves water or air by being rotated. No problem. But we are not shaped like propellers and the only part that we could pitch against the water - our hands - are already busy with some forward-backwards movement in the freestyle stroke.
I am not saying that rotation is bad, or is not reducing drag, or is not making energy usage efficient or is not making us swim faster all together or it is not the key to rhythm and effortless swimming, all that is ok and body rotation in freestyle is very important. But rotating a human body in the water does not move it forward or backwards. Yes, it is that simple for me. Some things are simple. And shouldn't get mixed up.
I thing sometimes people get carried away a little when they try to explain their experiential findings in swimming. Sometimes it simply is misunderstanding.

Happy rotation folks
and hang on in there...
Rotating your body in the water causes a very (extremely simple) phenomenon:

As your left hand side goes down, the right hand side goes up.

Question 1: Is gravity involved in the left hand side going down. My assumption is that yes it is. Not to a big extent (see note at the bottom), but to a certain (although minimal) extent.

If so, then can we also state that the right hand side that goes up be helped by the fact that the left hand side is going down?

Then if so, what the Isolated rotation tends or tries to demonstrate, is that the fact that LHS goes down, and that RHS benefits from it by the same token (after all, both sides of your body are tied together right?), then it's possible that indeed this sculling motion which occurs after the body starts rotating back up, be helped by the gravity effect experienced by the opposite side going down.

That's it, and nothing else is assumed or implied by the Isolated rotation experiment.

The other piece (where I'm rotating unachored) tends to demonstrate that sometimes science forget, or overlook the body twist effect (in Frenche we call this Tangage, so that would be what... pitching? tossing? I donno) also plays a role. It's apparent at Backstroke, I think no one can deny it. Some good swimmers report experiencing Tossing at Freestyle too.

Let me reuse my best tool to help people understanding the first principle I tried to explain you (gravity stuff). Dirty Harry. Harry Wilstshire...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p1wnu0xzvjo

Look at minute 0:20 sec.

Simple. Is gravity involved in sinking Javier Gomez? If so, it is reasonable to assume that Gravity be also involved in the stroke, even whilst not sinking an opponent. Again there, anecdotal evidence. So many fast swimmers (Harry Wiltshire is worth sub 17 over 1500 any time of the day), report feeling that they put their whole body weight on the downsweep (that's downward body rotation). An elite triathlete of mine, former swimmers once said in his words : "When I swim the free, I **Lock** my leading arm putting all my body weight on it. Same as sinking an opponent basically. And if you look back at Harry's clip, you'll notice that all his strokes are identical as the one used to sink Gomez. It's as if he didn't have to modify his stroke mechanics for this.... Conclusion?

So there's weight handling evidence, mostly anecdotal, and I got to follow these leads, hence a portion of my works.

Bottom note: I know nothing about science. There probably are theories for explaining things that get affected by infinitely small changes. Allergie would be an example I guess. Takes traces to trigger an allergic reaction. IN swimming, it takes traces of anything to have a significant impact. So even if Gravity doesn't play a big role, that role could be significant enough to trigger significant changes.

In other words, every one on this site has enough power to perform the Isolated rotation as demonstrated by Luc, my model. This is why I state that this drill is democratic. Doesn't take muscular power, doesn't take flexibility. You have all it takes. Then WHY can't YOU do it just like this guy do. The reason(s) are a bunch of very minor details, and it's possible that handling gravity be one of these minor details.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-22-2012 at 07:42 PM.
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  #64  
Old 10-22-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Charles, you are right about tangage. In aeronautics there are three axes: pitch, roll and yaw which are in French, axe de tangage, axe de roulis and axe de lacet.

In freestyle and backstroke swimming we generally try to keep pitching and yawing to a minimum, indeed we try to exclude yawing altogether. Some roll is necessary and helpful.

In breaststroke and butterfly the amount of pitching or undulation, which is perhaps not quite the same thing as pitching, because the human body can bend at the waist, seems to vary quite a lot.
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  #65  
Old 10-22-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Thanks Richard, I'm almost there... euhh, not quite :(

When you look at this clip, what do you observe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JfJ-slsH93s

There's roll (roulis) that's obvious. But I'm breaking the longitudinal axis. How would we call this?

This is what backstroke specialists do (a lot) and that freestylers do (a little). It's this phenomenon which science may overlook when claiming that unanchored body rotation is impossible.
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  #66  
Old 10-22-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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This video reminds me of an experiment I read about about thirty years or more ago. People were arguing about whether a cat can flip from upside down to land on its feet and they proved that it could. They dropped the cat on its back and photographed it in time lapse and it twisted around using its core muscles and landed neatly on its feet.

I saw the photos in New Scientist.
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  #67  
Old 10-22-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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I found this on youtube:

http://uk.video.search.yahoo.com/vid...50382464954533
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  #68  
Old 10-23-2012
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Saw that same experience on TV a couple of weeks ago.
Cat vs man.
The cat -> just like Richard said.
The man did rotate a little bit with no anchor. But the best he could achieve was landing on his side (he was dropped from a few meters, so the fall lasted less than a sec. )
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  #69  
Old 10-23-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hi Charles,

Charles:
Quote:
But I'm breaking the longitudinal axis. How would we call this?
it's called conservation auf angular momentum. The body of your guy works as two cones (or cylinders with cones sides in contact.) Both body spin in opposit directions related to their connected CG longitudinal axis. So the agnular momentum of the whole body is conserved.

This can be seen very impressive at Richardsk's cat videos. The tail is very helpful for the cats... (Tower divers(?) use the same. They are able to introduce rotation even in free fall/flight).

Regards,
Werner

PS: It'd be very interesting to see if additonal to this roation could be introduced a cork screw effect and produce propulsion....

PPS: Not in this forum, but I'd buy "your book" as soon as published...
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  #70  
Old 10-25-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
PPS: Not in this forum, but I'd buy "your book" as soon as published...
You guys are slowly seeding this idea in my mind LOL

But it's so funny. It's a translation distortion. There's a french expression that says (literally) *In my book* things should be this way, or that should be done this way, meaning I believe that. In *my* here suggests that it's written only in 1 book, mine, ie for what it's worth somehow.

Hey I thought I was due for an update.

Tried to teach the Isolated Rotation last Tuesday, total failure once again. Arrrgggrrr this thing...

Conclusion is very clear: Beginners tend to really have major difficulty keeping their core together and working it in a productive way, as soon as they're asked to rotate with minimal and unusual support. They swim with their arms way way too much. How can we blame them, mental image of someone swimming is a body flipping the arms over then under then over then underwater.

Anyway this drill is a very strange one. I'm not sure it's worth working on it when you can do it, and it's a nightmare to teach to someone that doesn't get it rapidly.

I will stick to it though as there are no other drills out there at the moment that challenges the core that much.

My questioning at the moment is when I finally get to teach it fluently, will my people make outstanding progress?

Once your core works well, that the body is horizontal and streamline? What else needs to be done? Not that much....

So try it everyone if you want, then come back yelling names at me I will understand. Any help from any coach that tries it, work it out within 5min and manages to teach this will greatly be appreciated.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-25-2012 at 02:31 AM.
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