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  #11  
Old 10-01-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeffinhawaii View Post
I wonder if anyone has ever tried creating a swim tank with a heavier viscosity fluid to train in? Would it work? Something between water and maple syrup that allowed slower motions at higher resistance and high flotations. I wonder if superman glides in corn syrup would enhance ones form? Maybe I'm just craving waffles.
It's been done!
http://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/1...aic.10389/full
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  #12  
Old 10-01-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Mmmm, there's an easier solution. Go to the gym, perform a hard session, then get to the pool. You'll get your maple sirup without the drag associated with it.

In fact, just chatting here, not recommended any of these things. But swimmers are probably those who experience solid water feeling the mosts. I've seen some evenings, 12x400m on 6min, 1->3 (5:50, 5:40, 5:30), 6 stroke 6 pull, as part of a 7000 session. After a whilst you just bonk out of sugar, then water gets automatically solid.

And quite frankly, these, I never forget, they're part of what taught me how to swim. Sad, and a very small percentage of people here will ever experience this. You're there giving it all you got, I'm mean the intensity of a flat out 100m here, but the output is no longer there. You're just relying on fat, which can't regenerate the ATP fast enough to sustain speed.

But gees do you feel the water like never before.

I still have no clue of how much of it was necessary to build the swimmer that I am.

Earlier in some other thread Terry asked me in what my own brewed humble concept, the Swim Training Day, was promoting values that are conflicting with TI. This would be an exemple. I am not claiming having a a goal to get my people to bunk, but after 5 hours of swimming in a day, near a kilo of sculling drills alone, near the end of the day, they certainly feel the water.
My only misgiving in doing this as a 1 day event (ie Training Day) is the risk of shoulder injury. However I do aagree that doing heavy upper body stuff (for me Kettlebells!) has a way of helping you feel the water. For me it also results in frustration. Normally 14-16 SPL in warmup and on kettlebell days 17-19 SPL no matter what.

This may be different from what you are describing but for me it's a frustrating swim not only due to SPL differences, but also because I know internally that swimming @ 18 SPL is a completely different technique than I want to implment, so on those days I don't swim for distance or pace, just for movement.

Not sure that relates to what you are saying at all?

On the other hand, I will say that some of my BEST swimming days come the day after an upper body day with PULLUPS. Not because I think the pull ups necessarily help, although they might, but because when the lats are sore, I can feel where they are and when they are stretched during my recovery and entry. If I can fully stretch them during recovery and prior to the catch I know the rest of hte stroke is going to be solid.

On days they are not sore, I am less aware of them and my proprioception has not yet advanced to the level of maintaining the same form as when they are sore.

Curious isn't it?
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Suzanne Atkinson, MD
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Coach of 5 time USA Triathlon Triathlete of the Year, Kirsten Sass
Steel City Endurance, LTD
Fresh Freestyle

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  #13  
Old 10-01-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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Enlightening responses from both Charles and CoachSuzanne. I was actually interested in the high viscosity fluid as a way to give novice swimmers more support and to slow the actual stroke and stroke rate way down in order to have more time to think. Like swimming in slow motion suspended animation at ten strokes per minute. I wonder what sort of proprioception one would get from taking fifteen seconds to drag a hand from entry to hip? What would it feel like to "glide" through syrup?Would it be like one of those bad dreams people describe running and being unable to move? Of course some people might experience a bit of panic breathing in syrup and want a snorkel. But maybe one would learn certain things faster?

One of the beautiful zen parts of swimming is the paradox of trying to anchor the catch in cement and at the same time superman glide as if flying through air.
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  #14  
Old 10-01-2012
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hallo Jeffinhawaii,

2ct from an other non coach: When moving too slow it's difficult to feel the changing in viscosity. It starts best (for me) when coming from the catch to adjusting the arm to get a plain resistant feel on hand and forearm and then it goes to the next phase trying to hold this feeling... CoachSuzanne described it as if the forearm reaches over a wall edge. To feel it you have to have a minimal velocity. You'll not get it in super slow motion...

If my stroke isn't my best it feels as if the syrup is just touching my outer arms. (Mostly caused by not spearing with index finger direction and/or leading elbow... :-( )

When in a well balanced streamlined position the syrup might be felt just as an anchor for your stroking arms and not with your body...

But listen to the coaches.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #15  
Old 10-01-2012
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Default Tried out Your ideas

Today I tried to incorporate some of the ideas that were offered (in order to help feel the water). Andy's idea with the door was a real eye opener--and really helped to "feel" the difference between pulling and anchoring. (Even tho it was out of water).

Azamy also had a good idea with practicing in front of a mirror. Did this several times to get how it felt.

Then Janos and Richardsk suggested sculling. Went to a website to see all of the drills associated with sculling. Did a little of this this a.m. and was able to create some whirlpools. Have to investigate this further to see how it may help.

Actually some help came from another post--Hip Driveand Propulsion. I like the idea of letting gravity take over for the hip that is highest--just let if fall as I spear and try to "hold" the lead hand. got more instant results from that.

Also, since I was practicing with a TT, I noticed that the faster I set the TT, the easier it was to feel the water. Not sure how good my stroke was, but at least I was able to feel the water. Started at 1:45 and worked way down to 1:25. That was the easiest. SPL stayed pretty much the same, 19-20-spl, but I know that is kind of high. (I am only 5' 3.5")

Anyway, thanks for all your postings--they were all great.

Sherry
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  #16  
Old 10-01-2012
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Mmmm, there's an easier solution. Go to the gym, perform a hard session, then get to the pool. You'll get your maple sirup without the drag associated with it.

In fact, just chatting here, not recommended any of these things. But swimmers are probably those who experience solid water feeling the mosts. I've seen some evenings, 12x400m on 6min, 1->3 (5:50, 5:40, 5:30), 6 stroke 6 pull, as part of a 7000 session. After a whilst you just bonk out of sugar, then water gets automatically solid.

And quite frankly, these, I never forget, they're part of what taught me how to swim. Sad, and a very small percentage of people here will ever experience this. You're there giving it all you got, I'm mean the intensity of a flat out 100m here, but the output is no longer there. You're just relying on fat, which can't regenerate the ATP fast enough to sustain speed.

But gees do you feel the water like never before.

I still have no clue of how much of it was necessary to build the swimmer that I am.

Earlier in some other thread Terry asked me in what my own brewed humble concept, the Swim Training Day, was promoting values that are conflicting with TI. This would be an exemple. I am not claiming having a a goal to get my people to bunk, but after 5 hours of swimming in a day, near a kilo of sculling drills alone, near the end of the day, they certainly feel the water.
I felt that during my first 5k race a year ago. It was long and painful, but at some point, I *felt* the catch. And that lasted until the end.
But it never occured to me that this was related to my sore body, and my empty fuel tank.

And I never tried to replicate the experiment. You need so much focus, time and willl to swim that much for training.

Now, with Charles's comment, I might consider giving it a second thought.

But that comment from Coach Suzanne seems to go in the opposite direction : when she "feels" the water, it looks like a bad day for her (higher SPL).


Are you two describing the same thing ?
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  #17  
Old 10-01-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Not sure that relates to what you are saying at all?
it sure does, other from the fact that from my perspective, ie when I did experience it, counting strokes were the least of my concerns, surviving the set was.

Again though, my point here isn't to try and produce this condition, as we all know how important it is to avoid bunking.

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
On the other hand, I will say that some of my BEST swimming days come the day after an upper body day with PULLUPS.
Curious isn't it?
It is very hard to deny the potential benefits that developing the latissimus dorsi muscles may bring to one's swimming. Obviously, we don't learn to swim in a gym. But given a good swimming philosophy and habits, good feel for water, it's hard to deny that chin up / lat pulldown can help.

In fact, my biggest tri-talent these days is an exceptional runner. 23yo, can already run more than 100k per week. She loves it etc... But she can not perform one single chin up, not even one. And that to me, is an issue.
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  #18  
Old 10-01-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
Then Janos and Richardsk suggested sculling. Went to a website to see all of the drills associated with sculling. Did a little of this this a.m. and was able to create some whirlpools. Have to investigate this further to see how it may help.
I posted these two links in some other threads, you may find the second one interesting... Not sure about the first one's relevance though, as it really doesn't come as a surprise for anyone on TI forums.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x3nb8NRiHqw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FVAUtm3apic

Hey, here's a third one, a nice one too.

100m
25-1 = Sculling in position 1 (catch position)
25-2 = Sculling in position 2 (mid body position)
25-3 = Sculling in position 3 (back of the stroke position)
25-4 = Moving from position 1 to position 3 within the 25m

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lmnwvFcGkkc

Though I find the execution in this clip *acceptable* I much prefer leaving the head in the water to avoid neck and back tensions. The lady performing the drills is a natural born swimmer that feels good in any sort of context. She feels good this way. I think she's just too curious by nature, and can't help looking at what her hands are doing.... But I recommend making sure your body is comfortably being held by the water, and for that, it's better to let the head in the water.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 10-01-2012 at 07:15 PM.
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  #19  
Old 10-01-2012
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jenson1a View Post
While searching google for anything to do with how to increase dps, I came across a video by Natilee Coughlin--her suggestion was to make the water feel thicker. Didn't say how to do it tho.

Also was a good article by Coach Suzanne. Gave ideas about different ways to swim--using fist only, then 1 finger, then 2, then palm. Goal was to feel how much the difference the water felt while doing that. I tried this but did not feel a whole lot of difference.

I also got some advice on a previous thread from Coach Suzanne about anchoring the lead hand and then moving past that anchor. Suggestion was that the feel was like the lead hand was anchored in cement.

I do feel the water pressure against my forearm and front of hand, but do not understand this idea of thicker water. Is the idea just to take the mind off the pull phase on the stroke?

Maybe someone has another way of explaining this.

Sherry
The idea of thicker water is as Coach Suzanne has said and in previous posts. It is the feel of the water against your forearm as well as your hand. The drills Coach S recommends of fist, 1-2-3 fingers heighten the sensation of feel on the forearm by removing the open surface of the palm. Remember that the square area of the forearm is almost the exact same as the palm of the hand, so why not integrate it. The ideas of anchoring the hand in the water and propelling the body past the hand is I admit a hard concept to grasp :-))). I like the references by azamy and andy with the mirror to visualize and door frame for feeling. In the visualization and in the doorframe you are activating the lats to propel yourself forward and not relying on the movement of the triceps and deltoids. It as if you went to the gym and lifted a light weight say 25 lbs, exercise of your choice, i.e., bench press, curls, dead lift. You could do this pretty easily and if you wanted could probably execute it very quickly. Executing quickly in the water makes you loose your grip/fell and you will actually move less with this action. If you increase the weight by 25 lbs or more you don't end up moving the weight faster to execute the movement, you activate, recruit more muscle to move the weight. This is the same action you should be feeling in the water with the lats and the action you feel whether you visualize in a mirror or a doorframe. You want to recruit more muscle to move the thicker water rather than ripping your hand through the water. In regards to sculling. It has it's benefits in learning how the pitch of your hands can add or detract from propulsion in the water. I personally don't advocate the amount of sets mentioned as a means for building strength except in your forearms. I have done many sculling drills but always as part of a warm-up set and usually 200-400 worth of distance and again for feeling of the water.
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  #20  
Old 10-02-2012
Janos Janos is offline
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Sculling while stationary only gives you a feel for what the water 'should' feel like. My thoughts are that you can't really exploit the viscosity of the water for grip when moving at slow speeds, and there is a critical speed that varies for all of us, depending on skills developed and physical factors like weight, catch technique, streamline etc. The speed needed, reduces as our skill and feel increases. Perhaps there is an argument for starting students with a six beat kick and then reducing it to a two beat when necessary feel has been developed?

Regards

Janos
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