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  #1  
Old 09-09-2012
JC_Yang JC_Yang is offline
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Default How do hips drive/involve in short axis stroke?

I've purchased the complete swimmers bundle last year, and I start schedule time to learn all these 3 strokes lately.

I've read the book carefully and got some questions about hip actions.

In long axis stroke(free & back), hip driven in the stroke process is easily understood. Use hip muscle to rotate our body, that's my understanding and the way I do it in pool.
But what exactly do hips contribute to short/axis stroke? I don't think we're going to use hip muscle in these strokes. The undulation needs certain level of hip flexibility, yes, that's it. But it's initiated from chest press. I can't feel I've utilized any muscle from the hip in the drills(both breast and fly). The book has mention hip actions, especially accelerate hip in breast. What it says seems to indicate it's just a reference of DIVIDED-STROKE-MOTION illustration by words to help the learners understand it more accurately. Or do I miss some points here?
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  #2  
Old 09-18-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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I hate breaststroke.

Hips play a significant role in butterfly, as there too they act as a central axis each side of which weight is getting constantly shift, similar as a seesaw balance.

Muscle masses involved here though go far beyond those close to the hip articulation. But hips remain central to all this.

I could venture stating that the fly is the stroke where hip action plays the bigger role. In freestyle, some theoreticians, Gary Hall Sr. for instance recognizes the existence of a freestyle stroke that's shoulder driven, thus suggesting that hip action be optional here.

Fly, you know, forgive me I speak foreign language so I may sound a bit I donno, dirty here? But when sprinting you drive your hips as if you were I donno how to put this.. Making woopie maybe?

And around that action, dynamically, weight shifts from upper body to lower body back to upper body etc... So....
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  #3  
Old 09-18-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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Unlike Charles I am very fond of breaststroke and it is my best stroke and before TI almost the only stroke I could do. However, I swim a rather old-fashioned breaststroke with a lot less undulation in it than is seen nowadays, although some still seem to swim with a fairly flat style.

I've seen the phrase 'draw the hips' used to describe the motion that contributes to the very high position of the head and chest that is often seen nowadays, so I suppose this is done with the core muscles, and brings the legs into position for a powerful kick. I haven't really figured out how to do it, but from recent photos of myself doing breaststroke, I obviously come higher out of the water than I thought I did.

Last edited by Richardsk : 09-18-2012 at 08:06 AM.
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  #4  
Old 09-18-2012
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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The hips play an important role in both the long and short axis strokes. For the long axis, yes in TI we are more focused on being hip driven vs shoulder as Charles noted Hall,Sr. Advocates. The difference is as you go from more of a long distance stroke/tempo and hip driven you will change to a shoulder driven stroke as the tempo increases as for most sprinters and sprint type races. Try sometime of increasing your tempo, use your tempo trainer. Keep pushing the tempo and you will eventually feel the shift from hips to shoulders.

In the short axis strokes the hips should drive the energy forward up through the spine forward through the head as the hips straighten out from being tilted at the conclusion of the propulsion phase. Terry makes note of this in his new 4 strokes. To use the hips to drive forward not up and down.
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  #5  
Old 09-21-2012
JC_Yang JC_Yang is offline
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Thank you for your comments, all.

@Richardsk:
Draw the hips is something I occasionally feel in my breast drill. I enjoy the feeling too, I'd like to try reproduce that feeling in my next pool session, and try to make that feeling my second nature.

@CoachToddE:
For freestyle, I'm trying to learn the hip drive as a habit lately. But I want to make sure I understand the true meaning of hip drive.
Recently, my freestyle stroke/drill focal point is to alternating the origin of the energy, using the hip movement(I explicitly/mindfully command my hip muscles to start work(rotate my body) first, aka, as the 'leader' of the rotation/stroke, and then my shoulders/arms/legs follow)as the initialization of my stroke. Is this the correct hip-driven? The hip-driven that is described by TI? Since I didn't got the exact answer in any of my TI books, so I have to confirm my understanding here.(page 46~47 of "Extraordinary Swimming for every body" include a terry recommend on land experience, but it didn't explicitly state hip driven there)
And since I focus on hip-driven, my 2-beat kick is very small and light now, I didn't try to emphasized the kick at this stage. I'll coordinate them later, when I feel hip-driven is my second nature.


Again, I'm a true believer of TI philosophy. I take several hours learning breast/fly through the TI drill sequences, it does not only work, it work quite efficiently. I can fly/minifly quite easily with little to no kicking. Not a single one in my local pool can fly as I do. (probably as well as the demo by various TI coaches in betterfly DVD, I guess?)I'm so happy with this result. And I'm going to improve all four strokes, efficiency first, speed second.
TI is brilliant if you take time to fully understand its philosophy.

Last edited by JC_Yang : 09-21-2012 at 04:04 AM.
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  #6  
Old 09-21-2012
CoachToddE CoachToddE is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JC_Yang View Post
For freestyle, I'm trying to learn the hip drive as a habit lately. But I want to make sure I understand the true meaning of hip drive.
Recently, my freestyle stroke/drill focal point is to alternating the origin of the energy, using the hip movement(I explicitly/mindfully command my hip muscles to start work(rotate my body) first, aka, as the 'leader' of the rotation/stroke, and then my shoulders/arms/legs follow)as the initialization of my stroke. Is this the correct hip-driven? The hip-driven that is described by TI? Since I didn't got the exact answer in any of my TI books, so I have to confirm my understanding here.(page 46~47 of "Extraordinary Swimming for every body" include a terry recommend on land experience, but it didn't explicitly state hip driven there)
And since I focus on hip-driven, my 2-beat kick is very small and light now, I didn't try to emphasized the kick at this stage. I'll coordinate them later, when I feel hip-driven is my second nature.


Again, I'm a true believer of TI philosophy. I take several hours learning breast/fly through the TI drill sequences, it does not only work, it work quite efficiently. I can fly/minifly quite easily with little to no kicking. Not a single one in my local pool can fly as I do. (probably as well as the demo by various TI coaches in betterfly DVD, I guess?)I'm so happy with this result. And I'm going to improve all four strokes, efficiency first, speed second.
TI is brilliant if you take time to fully understand its philosophy.
You are correct in my opinion. I learned a new drill for swimming with the Tempo Trainer at my TI Master's Coaching Clinic from Coach Suzanne. Utilizing the TT and the beeps target these 3 patterns on different lenghts. First round timing the entry/spearing to the beep, next round time the hips to the beep and third round time the kick (2bk) to the beeps. I found that this changing of the focus changed how my rotation felt. At first, I felt the most comfortable with the hands then feet and finally the hip. After several lengths the hips started feeling better. The timing of this hip drive versus shoulder drive is a constant debate similar to the chicken and the egg. I personally feel that the hip and kick occur almost simultaneously with the shoulder and spear immediately following (nano-seconds). At slow tempos this can feel labored and as your tempo picks up it becomes more seamless in my opinion.

Sounds from your reps ones that you are on the correct path. And you are correct in your comment TI is brilliant when you take the time to understand its philosophy.

Keep up the swimming.
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  #7  
Old 09-25-2012
JC_Yang JC_Yang is offline
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Thank you, CoachToddE.
The new drill you described is interesting.

I've got passion to become the first TI coach in my country, when I'm ready, I'll try to get a certificate.
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