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  #21  
Old 08-31-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
Saying that TI is what is printed int he book is a straw man argument as it should be clear to anyone browsing even just this thread that TI is not what the quoted text in this thread suggests.
This is the exact reason that brought me here. And I can certainly testify that what I've discovered here, ie studies on weight shifts (presented in a way that's far more understandable than Romanov's theory on Pose Swimming, at least in my opinion), this new tendency of boosting up the rate, etc... This is not what the yellow book suggested.

TI is still in transition though, as far as I can feel. It's good as it is, but it is aiming toward something even better.

The umentionnable player do have a brand new book though. But hey. The quest is totally different, so much so that I'm yet to find a reason why these two systems couldn't be seen as complementary.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-01-2012 at 12:02 AM.
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  #22  
Old 09-01-2012
ian mac ian mac is offline
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Default The greatness of TI is it's curiosity and desire to improve

Charles, Suzanne et al,
I so agree with your comments regarding TI continuing far beyond the concepts within Terry's original book (which inspired me greatly). TI (and Terry as mentor) continues to improve/evolve.

The great thing about mastery is that the greatest teachers are also the most willing students. Double entendre aside, Browning's assertion that "a man's reach should exceed his grasp, or what's a heaven for ?" most definitely applies to TI.

However, as this thread has evolved, i see that we have not heard from it's originator, smat. I hope they are still anting to swim and appreciate how TI can make him/her a faster swimmer.
ian mac
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  #23  
Old 09-01-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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My main interrogation at this point, hence me reading a lot of what's being discussed here, is..

Let's cut it simple. Just a question.

How fast can the turn over rate reach whilst remaining *TI* appraised stroke?

Can someone flip at a rate of 90 strokes per minute whilst still expecting to follow TI guildelines? Sorry I'M not asking these questions often, as I feel I guess I'd have to follow some training etc in order to legitimately expect to learn these things.

And mind you, all that is pure curiosity.

For instance, the leader on this vid here, how close would he be from getting a certificate with distinction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce7hH5CvFsU

turn off the sound, this is very raw.

The one in the back, it's a lost cause, we all agree :)

(hope he doesn't read this lol)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-01-2012 at 01:51 AM.
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  #24  
Old 09-01-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
My main interrogation at this point, hence me reading a lot of what's being discussed here, is..

Let's cut it simple. Just a question.

How fast can the turn over rate reach whilst remaining *TI* appraised stroke?

Can someone flip at a rate of 90 strokes per minute whilst still expecting to follow TI guildelines? Sorry I'M not asking these questions often, as I feel I guess I'd have to follow some training etc in order to legitimately expect to learn these things.

And mind you, all that is pure curiosity.

For instance, the leader on this vid here, how close would he be from getting a certificate with distinction?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ce7hH5CvFsU

turn off the sound, this is very raw.

The one in the back, it's a lost cause, we all agree :)

(hope he doesn't read this lol)
Have you posted a video of Paul N swimming on the Ti forum? Oh La la c'est quoi ca? Its a good question

Smooth stroke 1 minute and 08 seconds flat start 100 in a wet suit with 36 strokes per length. these are the facts.

He lifts his head a number of times, could be an open water hangover. For me the rhythm of the stroke isn't TI, where Sun Yang's is, its about apportionment within the stroke cycle, for me at least.
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  #25  
Old 09-01-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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To me the leader looks very good, rather Thorpe-like in fact, with the only point I would take issue with being the slight head lift (as Andy says, perhaps an open water feature). The drafting swimmer also looks good but is bit splashy ( more on the right arm than on the left).

More skilled TI types may find other things to criticize but rhythm and bodyline look very good to me in both swimmers.

Note that I am not a coach.

Last edited by Richardsk : 09-01-2012 at 08:59 AM. Reason: typo
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  #26  
Old 09-01-2012
westyswoods westyswoods is offline
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Default Just some observations

IMHO the lead swimmer does exhibit a lot of TI characteristics. The head lift sure appears to be an OW thing.

I would like to qualify the following with I am not a coach. Just can not get too excited about doing comparisons while individuals are wearing wetsuits.
Take off the wetsuit, shoot an underwater video and have them maintain that pace for 200.

I would venture a guess the trailing swimmer would be falling behind by the end of the first 100 and his stroke count would be out of sight by the final 50.

Swim Silent and Be Well
Westy
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  #27  
Old 09-01-2012
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Its the timing that's off, not the skill at swimming. the lead swimming in Charles' video is executing the 'swimsmooth hands in the water get them moving approach' (also very Rebecca Adlington)

My view is that muscles are more efficient in a 3 beat 'pulse - rest - rest' time. When we cycle we exert pressure from 2 oclock to 6 oclock, the rest is recovery, that's a 1/3 of the cycle. Bradley Wiggins used a Q ring to win the time trial in London2012?

Its the same when you watch kids on skate boards or scooters, the pulse glide glide is obvious.

Here's Ian Thorpe at training pace, much more TI in the timing
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8HAP63plXVQ

Here's Michael Phelps, again 1,2,3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sMHblRxQJE0

Here's Sun Yang, 1-2-3
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yvrBsTG2TIs

Over short distances, the stroke alters as they sacrifice efficiency for speed but when training to swim better (which is what we are doing) it's TI all they way.

Incidentally was looking for a Ryan Lochte clip and heard this poem

Thumb by thigh
Elbow's high
Gliding on my side
Streamline makes me fly.
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  #28  
Old 09-01-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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3Westywoods

Surely there is not that much difference between swimming with a wetsuit and without? The second swimmer has no difficulty in keeping up with the leader in this video, even though his stroke looks somewhat less elegant, but nowhere near as bad as Charles seems to suggest. Is that you, Charles? It is quite common at the top level to see a swimmer with a slightly splashy stroke stay with the leaders. I agree that underwater footage would be very interesting. My impression is that the drafter is using a four-beat kick while the leader seems to using a six-beat. There is definitely a 3-1 rhythm to the splashes from the feet in the drafter, while the draftee has little or no foot splash..
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  #29  
Old 09-01-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
To me the leader looks very good, rather Thorpe-like in fact, with the only point I would take issue with being the slight head lift (as Andy says, perhaps an open water feature). The drafting swimmer also looks good but is bit splashy ( more on the right arm than on the left).

More skilled TI types may find other things to criticize but rhythm and bodyline look very good to me in both swimmers.

Note that I am not a coach.
very poor assessment Richard! ;) (I am just kidding you a bit but I mean it in a way)
how can you agree with the follower swimming style? he has NO GLIDE. thats a big no no. two more laps and he dies in the water...
if both two swimmers had the same physical fitness and were giving the same effort, then the first swimmer would have "destroyed" the second swimmer by few meters over these 200 meters. The second swimmer works much harder.

Last edited by swimust : 09-01-2012 at 12:06 PM.
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  #30  
Old 09-01-2012
swimust swimust is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
3Westywoods

Surely there is not that much difference between swimming with a wetsuit and without? The second swimmer has no difficulty in keeping up with the leader in this video, even though his stroke looks somewhat less elegant, but nowhere near as bad as Charles seems to suggest. Is that you, Charles? It is quite common at the top level to see a swimmer with a slightly splashy stroke stay with the leaders. I agree that underwater footage would be very interesting. My impression is that the drafter is using a four-beat kick while the leader seems to using a six-beat. There is definitely a 3-1 rhythm to the splashes from the feet in the drafter, while the draftee has little or no foot splash..
you are missing a big point here. The second swimmer spent as twice or more energy to keep up with the first swimmer. In a long distance swim only his fitness will save him, and if the first swimmer has the same physical conditioning, then the second swimmer will be beaten in a knockout over a long distance course.
its a classic video of "almost there but not really close..." (the second swimmer) - if the first swimmer holds his technique and increases his stroke rate (SR) then he will "kill" the second swimmer.

Last edited by swimust : 09-01-2012 at 12:21 PM.
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