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  #61  
Old 08-23-2012
DD_l_enclume DD_l_enclume is offline
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Charles,
Like Talvi, I also wonder what is "Hide-the-foot" ?

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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
3) Are the legs after a kick then resembling the hands in the hand-on-hand streamline position ?
Is that right ?
can you explain a bit more please ?
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  #62  
Old 09-22-2012
marry marry is offline
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Hello Every Buddy! I Belive That Trainings sessions every day of the year Sundays included with just a couple days off overall.I have also heard that
Agnel never switched to swimming with the full suits......
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  #63  
Old 09-23-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume View Post
Charles,
Like Talvi, I also wonder what is "Hide-the-foot" ?

Is that right ?
can you explain a bit more please ?
Bah, never mind this I was wrong.

When I first saw Shinji swimming, I was sure that he was performing some hide the foot, ie the name I used to give to a particular element I've mastered in the past that pertains to 2bk. As soon as a foot had finished kicking, it would immediately move back up, hidden under the other foot, hence hide the foot. Both feet would touch each other here...

But I don't think this is TI specific. I believe Shinji gets close to this naturally as a result of an excellent balance/body rotation. I couldn't see the same characteristic with Terry's stroke. Therefore I think it is of little relevance...
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  #64  
Old 09-24-2012
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Thanks Charles, I am guessing your "hide-the-foot" is to do with streamlining?

p.s. as I am just struggling to learn "TI", the finer points of what is TI and what is not escape me at the moment. I gaze at Terry's limpid blue pool, shimmering in the heat of the midday sun, and remember swimming in Jamaica. Hmm. I swim in a pretty cool (both temp and view!) lake, so I find most of the drills tricky to "relax into". I have to keep moving, not drown, and find things that I can do to get to the feel of "TI" before hypothermia sets in!
p.s. Is the site-with-no-name": "S**m S****h" ? And why is it banned here? Because of conflicts of interest or....?
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  #65  
Old 09-24-2012
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Thanks Charles, I am guessing your "hide-the-foot" is to do with streamlining? Is the site-with-no-name": "S**m S****h" ? And why is it banned here? Because of conflicts of interest or....?
I don't believe that a "ban" has been issued, but simply a caution that these forums should concentrate on TI. It is, after all, funded by that organization.

Other enterprises run similar boards where it is more appropriate to comment on their techniques.
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  #66  
Old 09-24-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Thanks Charles, I am guessing your "hide-the-foot" is to do with streamlining?

p.s. as I am just struggling to learn "TI", the finer points of what is TI and what is not escape me at the moment. I gaze at Terry's limpid blue pool, shimmering in the heat of the midday sun, and remember swimming in Jamaica. Hmm. I swim in a pretty cool (both temp and view!) lake, so I find most of the drills tricky to "relax into". I have to keep moving, not drown, and find things that I can do to get to the feel of "TI" before hypothermia sets in!
Hmmm, don't you have access to a pool?


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Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
p.s. Is the site-with-no-name": "S**m S****h" ? And why is it banned here? Because of conflicts of interest or....?
Yes it would be, although I want to make clear that though I have strong affinities with this group, I still have my own works, created a concept in 2011 which promotes values that are compatible with SS, without necessarily being a copy/paste. So I, Charles Couturier, speak on behalf of my own thoughts, hence why I feel good here. If I was a certified SS coach (which I'm not yet, it's due for 2013), I don't think I'd be bold enough to be here trading tricks etc...

My own concept is called the Swim Training Day. It promotes values that are incompatible in some regards with that promoted by TI, but that really doesn't matter. I won't bother you guys with these too much. I'm certainly not looking for some clientele, I am not about to travel to the US with this concept, which is almost boring compared to TI. The Swim Training Day core business is to organize hybrid seminars, a full day, in which people do swim more than in any other concept. As simple as that.

In spite of having recorded several clips where models are wearing a SS bathing cap, all that I've done so far has been in the context of my own concept.

OK. Now that we cleared this question, I believe that the reason why it's important for anyone tied to a different system sharing different values should be careful here on TI-Forums is simply that you guys are committed to a Process that we don't even totally understand. It's a complete learning training system, so deep that you'd need to become certified on it in order to become fully significant issuing advices etc...

So we're certainly not talking conflict of interests here, as much as noisy advices that could come in the way of your progress with TI. For instance both SS and I think it's preferable to develop a 6bk (in the context of your full stroke) *before* developing a 2bk. This strongly conflicts with TI I believe. If I knew how TI teaches the whole kicking progression etc, I'd be in a better position to issue advices around this.

Because it's clear in my mind that the limit over which I can not go, would be to try and convince you that it's better to develop a 6bk before a 2bk. That would be - in my book - a severe lack of respect toward TI method. If you see me making this sort of bad calls, please do advise as it's not my goal.
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  #67  
Old 09-24-2012
swim2Bfree swim2Bfree is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
p.s. Is the site-with-no-name": "S**m S****h" ? And why is it banned here? Because of conflicts of interest or....?
Here's the thread in which SS became the site that shall not be named. It makes for good reading. As I recall, Terry started deleting any posts that included links over to that site. Which I think may have had the opposite effect of what he intended, lol.
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  #68  
Old 09-24-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Originally Posted by swim2Bfree View Post
Here's the thread in which SS became the site that shall not be named. It makes for good reading. As I recall, Terry started deleting any posts that included links over to that site. Which I think may have had the opposite effect of what he intended, lol.
Wow so many great ideas expressed in this discussion though, which I will not read entirely as it would be pointless. I am amazed by how some members have decided to ignore (literally) this debate over which system works best, and decided to simply combine the 2.

Anyway, fantastic thread, great great statements issued such as this one here which I really *love*

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ian_mac
Since probably most of us in these forums are TI oriented, we probably have a certain bias. While I am definitely a TI advocate, when it comes to fast swimming I enjoy the comments of the great swimmers and coaches as well to learn new things. Watching Ryan Lochte and Sun Yang, Michael Phelps, Grant Hackett and others on You Tube, or reading David Salo, Rowdy Gaines, Jim Montgommery et al is of very great value.

During a workout earlier this year, I noticed an extremely fit man with rather poor technique muscling his way through a typical tri-athlete, empty headed set. When I attempted to mention a TI oriented principle regarding stroke length to him( he was taking 26 SPL to my 14), he rather dismissively mentioned how he preferred the Swim Smooth approach. Given that I am 15 years his senior and swim about 12 sec faster/100m with less effort, I though it odd that he felt that his was the better way. Curious, I checked out Swim Smooth and while I felt that there were a few interesting tid-bits to learn from, THERE WAS NO SOUL.

What has been significant for me is that TI is not just about technique, but the complete approach to learning to be better. While SPL and SR are very significant, the "raison d'etre" of TI is about Kaizen, which to my mind goes far beyond math and technique and incorporates a sense of spirituality that goes far beyond anything I learned from Swim Smooth.
Ian
Ian, you are one heck of a smart man. Cheers.

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 09-24-2012 at 05:42 PM.
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  #69  
Old 09-25-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CharlesCouturier View Post
Bah, never mind this I was wrong.

When I first saw Shinji swimming, I was sure that he was performing some hide the foot, ie the name I used to give to a particular element I've mastered in the past that pertains to 2bk. As soon as a foot had finished kicking, it would immediately move back up, hidden under the other foot, hence hide the foot. Both feet would touch each other here...

But I don't think this is TI specific. I believe Shinji gets close to this naturally as a result of an excellent balance/body rotation. I couldn't see the same characteristic with Terry's stroke. Therefore I think it is of little relevance...
We do a 2BK progression that does involve "covering" one foot with the other, I call it "toe tapping" because that's what it feels like to me.

While swimmign, the foot on the same side as the arm that is extended is nearer the surface adn "covers" the opposite foot so that the are touching. This prevents the same side foot from sinking as that hip rotates twards the bottom of the pool. It remains in a place of leverage for the next kick...no lifting up is needed as the foot is already there.

I learned it from Terry, I don't know where he learned it from or if it was an observation of his own swimming...but it's an effective way of further streamlining the 2BK
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  #70  
Old 09-26-2012
terry terry is offline
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Default Learning Process for 2BK

I was in LA recently, doing a Coach Certification Course with Suzanne in Van Nuys. While there I swam with a very popular open water group in Santa Monica. There were about 80 people and I enormously enjoyed swimming with them. Prior to the swim, the head coach of the group took questions. One - which he raised himself - was "Is there an advisable way to kick when racing in open water?" He answered himself, saying essentially 'No.' In fact he said 2-beat, 4-beat, 6-beat, even 8 beat or 2-beat crossover are all equally good options.
As Charles notes we advocate unambiguously for the 2BK - for reasons I've expressed elsewhere. But when I hear someone way "any kick is as good as any other" I think what's unsaid is "I don't know how to teach 2BK (or perhaps the skills for any kick) but don't want to admit it."

As with other aspects of the stroke, we have a process for teaching 2BK that is specific and detailed -- and works with great efficacy and consistency. When working with a student who already has good balance but lacks the coordination and kinesthetic awareness for the 2BK, we can often get them doing a 'serviceable' 2BK within 10 minutes. Tuning that basic version to really high effectiveness is a process that can continue for years. I devoted most of the spring this year to tuning my 2BK to be more compact/streamlined and to rely more on weight shift, not quad muscles. It paid off significantly in my races during the summer.

Later this year we will publish an ebook with embedded video that explains and shows the process.

PS: When coaching the sprinters at West Point from 1996-99 I just as unambiguously believed in the 6BK as most efficacious for them . . . and devoted many hours to tuning it to deliver the max propulsive power with the least cost in energy and power.
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Last edited by terry : 09-26-2012 at 01:34 PM.
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