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  #1  
Old 11-08-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Default Wide tracks

Looking for clarification on "wide tracks" prompted by looking at a video for the TT!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature...&v=Sdpjqo-PRnk

(Forget the swimmer on the right) The hand of the one on the left enters the water pretty much on his centreline (actually the one on the right does too). That looks good to me, so it then occured to me that wide track was in relation to the lateral axis of his shoulders rather than re the plane of the water.

Is this wrong in the TI approach? Should the hand enter the water wide of the parallel longitudinal line described by the shoulder? Again in other words: are the hands following V trajectories (when viewed against the surface of the water), from a point wide of the shoulder to back into the hip? Or is the hand only wide of the shoulder when viewed in a plane parallel to the shoulders/back, but when viewed (as in the video) against the surface of the water, following the longitudinal line of the direction of travel?
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  #2  
Old 11-08-2013
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Don't know if this helps explain wide tracks, but Helix did a posting (couldn't find it--sorry) about that. She had gone to a TI coach and they way they explained it was this: The coach told her to hold on to the gutter of the pool and then collapse her body against the wall with elbows bent. I tried this and found that if this is a wide track, it is a lot wider than I thought.

Like I said, don't know if this helps, but wish I could find where Helix posted this.

Sherry
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  #3  
Old 11-08-2013
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The two swimmers in the TT video are not good examples of "wide track" entry. One swimmer (dark cap), although landing recovery arm wide is shoulder driven straight arm recovery, "the wind mill", and the swimmer in white cap is more hip driven stroke, but landing narrow and "slipping off the rails" at fwd extension.

Here's a video with good focal point suggestions (i.e., "hug the tree") to help you with a correct version and visual of "wide tracks" SwimVICE with Coach Mandy - Wide Track Entry in Freestyle

Happy Tracks!

Stuart

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 11-08-2013 at 04:46 PM.
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Old 11-08-2013
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
The two swimmers in the TT video are not good examples of "wide track" entry. One swimmer (dark cap), although landing recovery arm wide is shoulder driven straight arm recovery, "the wind mill", and the swimmer in white cap is more hip driven stroke, but landing narrow and "slipping off the rails" at fwd extension.

Here's a video with good focal point suggestions (i.e., "hug the tree") to help you with a correct version and visual of "wide tracks" SwimVICE with Coach Mandy - Wide Track Entry in Freestyle

Happy Tracks!

Stuart
That was an awesome video! you and Coach Mandy are creating some awesome content these days - keep it up!
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Old 11-08-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
..Here's a video with good focal point suggestions (i.e., "hug the tree") to help you with a correct version and visual of "wide tracks" SwimVICE with Coach Mandy - Wide Track Entry in Freestyle
Happy trails? Quicksilver Messenger Service? :) I really like the "hug a tree" idea, does it means that it's like you're sort of climbing up a tree holding onto it one arm at a time? I can somehow relate to that. Now you'll tell me that's not it at all! :D Thanks :)

I didn't go for the Good Example in the video though :( It looked to me that she wiggled offline, her head moving in a sort of bounce from one side of it to the other.

@jenson1a Yes, it was Helix's comment that started me thinking! It's here: http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...05&postcount=3 :) The point I was pursuing here was after realising that this position is only absolute regarding your own body i.e the logitudinal plane through your your shoulders but relative to the water surface. If you get in position you can rotate around "the spindle" of your centreline, as you do so the tracks become colser together. Viewed against the plane of the3 water's surface they are at a maximum width when you are lying in that plane and zero, i.e one is directly on top of the other when your plane is at right angles to the water's surface i.e when your shoulders are stacked. The "hugging a tree" simile clears this up: the tree is circular :)
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
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Last edited by Talvi : 11-08-2013 at 08:43 PM.
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  #6  
Old 11-08-2013
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
That was an awesome video! you and Coach Mandy are creating some awesome content these days - keep it up!
Thanks Coach Dave! All Mandy's production, we only chat about subjects to cover. She also has a friend in art/film school that helps editing and putting together the quick video tips.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
Happy trails? Quicksilver Messenger Service? :) I really like the "hug a tree" idea, does it means that it's like you're sort of climbing up a tree holding onto it one arm at a time? I can somehow relate to that. Now you'll tell me that's not it at all! :D Thanks :)

I didn't go for the Good Example in the video though :( It looked to me that she wiggled offline, her head moving in a sort of bounce from one side of it to the other.
Hi Talvi: I wouldn't express it as climbing a tree, just reaching to the sides of (or hugging a) tree with recovery arm, and fwd anchoring arm cannot slip inside the tree trunk - "hug a tree". It's an excellent focal, one of Terry's gems, and I use it frequently too.

Sorry you didn't like the video All my students that have watched the video quickly understand what us coaches mean by "wide tracks" and the differences between "wide tracks" with head/spine alignment, and "crossing over" causing lateral spine twist ("fish tailing") which is a common problem - see it daily on deck.

Happy Swimming!

Stuart
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Old 11-09-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
... All my students that have watched the video quickly understand what us coaches mean by "wide tracks"
No disrespect intended by my feedback CoachStuart. Yes, it does demonstrate the difference very strongly. Thanks. And I see what you're saying about the two swimmers (I'd never noticed the colour of their hats!). The difficulty I have been having is with feeling out how wide is wide and how that width varies.

The point where the hand enters the water seems clear - on the line parallel to the direction of travel passing through the shoulder. To get some more clarity on the next part I've been running over and over the last few seconds of the "Acceleration Demo" by Shinji. Again, no offence it's just that I find his stroke the most beautiful. I've made a series of stills off this here from appx. 1:24. Allowing for parallax the following is what I see in these 7 stills:

1 - shoulders almost flat, hand enters water on shoulder line
2 - shoulders flat, arm extension fwd, hand on shoulder line
3, 4 - extension + arm lowering + shoulders rotation = hand off shoulder line
5 - shoulders flat, hand on shoulder line - catch
6 - shoulders near flat, hand off shoulder line (see clear water)
7 - shoulders rolled, hand exit off shoulder line

The distance of the spearing hand from the body necessarily increases, not just because of its forward extension but because as the shoulders roll they move in towards the body's centre line. A 45' roll gives a reduction of 50% in the horizontal distance between the shoulders. As the body rolls back to the hozontal for the pull, the hand's line comes back in line with the shoulder. As the rotation continues it diverges again and moves away from the body.

Rambling on, is this the "wrist flick? As the travel distance increases then if the rotation is constant then the hand speeds up. This increasing distance may also be the moment that CoachSuzanne's advice to open the armpit refers to. I'll focus on that next time out! (as well as the tree trunk :)

I remember another (Japanese) coaching video in which a swimmer demonstrated this "S" shape hand movement. I didn't get it before, but if you facing a mirror and keep your body still while moving your arm that seems to be the shape your hand follows.

After all this I am left wondering if perhaps if my body is other than flat at the point my hand enters.

Anyway just rambling.

Can you say what it was about the tree-climbing image that you didn't like?
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov

Last edited by Talvi : 11-09-2013 at 04:11 PM. Reason: the IMG tag seems only to work for JPGs etc not PDFs
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  #8  
Old 11-10-2013
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Hi Talvi,

No disrespect taken, everyone is entitled to their opinion, you have yours, no worries. If it works for you - great; if not - no harm done. But I think this is thread is drifting off the "wide tracks" to analyzing Shinji's catch and press, which will be confusing to most.

Wide tracks focal should stay with (above surf) recovery arm to forward extension. The track the hand creates underwater is a long gentle curve which happens as a consequence of correct timing, recovery arm spearing forward (hugging the tree) and roll to opposite side, not because the swimmer intentionally follows or pulls along underwater curved track.

Sun Yang has the most precise wide tracks I've seen. His hands land wide on the rails and it seems like within an inch or less from his last stroke cycle, incredible precision. Shinji's tracks are very wide too, but notice his fwd right spearing arm/hand slightly narrows as he rotates to his right side, and his left spearing arm/hand remains wide on the rails as he rotates to his left side (his best edge).

Re: "Climbing the tree" vs "hug a tree". It's not that I don't like "climbing the tree", I just wouldn't express it that way since "climb" has an action of pulling and muscling your way up, not necessarily of aiming and finishing forward. But if "climbing a tree" works for you - use it. I often use "land on the rails" and/or "don't slip off the rails" works very well too, not only to enter recovery arm wide but stay wide (on the rails) as you rotate and finish forward.

Happy Laps, Happy Tracks!

Stuart
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  #9  
Old 11-10-2013
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Here is a clip from last month's open water camp in Kona demonstrating wide tracks really well. (you should all come ont he next one!!)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vZZKekatcBY
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  #10  
Old 11-11-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
...Wide tracks focal should stay with (above surf) recovery arm to forward extension. ...
.. It's not that I don't like "climbing the tree", I just wouldn't express it that way since "climb" has an action of pulling and muscling your way up, not necessarily of aiming and finishing forward. .. I often use "land on the rails" and/or "don't slip off the rails" works very well too, not only to enter recovery arm wide but stay wide (on the rails) as you rotate and finish forward....
That's very helpful as I'd always understood the wide tracks as referring to a plane below as well as above the water - hence my Shinji analysis. Landing and not slipping off the rails resonates with me.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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