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  #21  
Old 09-09-2009
Rhoda Rhoda is offline
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Here's an easy way to figure out which leg goes where. First, put on fins and push off, face-down, arms at sides, kicking very slowly with loose relaxed legs. Let your kick rock your body from side to side. (This is the reason for the fins - it's more exaggerated than with bare feet.) As you rock towards the right, slide the right hand forward. Slide it back again and exchange it for the left hand as you rock to the other side.
After this starts to feel easy, try the same thing in skating position, and bring your recovering hand forward to switch. Pause until you start to rock towards that hand and then have it enter the water to a single switch as you rock onto that side.
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  #22  
Old 09-09-2009
inca inca is offline
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I think I got it! By George, I think I got it!

Wait, before anyone gets too excited, I don't do it right consistently yet. But at least by the end of my session, I was at the point where I COULD kick the correct foot at the correct time, and I actually felt that it was smoother and worked better than the way I had been doing it before. This is HUGE for me. You cannot imagine how exciting it was for me to go to the pool in order to try to 'get' something and have it actually happen.

I was getting soooo frustrated with not having someone 'live' to watch me and help guide me. I just couldn't seem to get anywhere. So this felt great!

It was a really good session for me altogether. I also was able to roll over in the water. Finally! OK it was smoother and 'quieter' one way than the other, but I did it...and that's what counts. I had been trying to do this for so long and just couldn't. I wanted to learn this so badly because I want to get to the point where I can feel comfortable going into the deep water so that I can swim for a longer stretch than across the width of the pool. But I cannot pick my head up to breathe, I cannot skull and pick up my head, and I cannot tread water...so I figured if I could roll over and float on my back and then roll back that would work too. I am still fearful of trusting myself in deep water, but at least I can see the light at the end of the tunnel.

I realize that my balance is not good because I should be able to stay at different body rotation position at will and relaxed, and I still cannot do those drills. I had been getting more and more 'down' and frustrated. At one point, I was ready to give up altogether. But, I persevered, and after last night, I feel hopeful again.

Sorry for the ramble, but I was really happy last night, and thought I would share here. Thank you all for not giving up on me and ignoring me altogether. You've been such a help and support to me.
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  #23  
Old 09-09-2009
inca inca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by eddiewouldgo View Post
Frame by frame of Shinji's stroke shows the timing exactly as Dave describes it. The downbeat of the left foot coincides with the extension (spear) of the opposite arm and the catch and pull of the same-side arm. Vice versa on the other side. All three of those motions happen simultaneously and in synch.
I know there was discussion on the forums about this frame by frame of Shinji's stroke before. Is it possible for me to get a copy of this? I think it would be really helpful.
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  #24  
Old 09-10-2009
daveblt daveblt is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by inca View Post
I realize that my balance is not good because I should be able to stay at different body rotation position at will and relaxed, .


This is one of the keys to doing the 2 beat .Good balance so your hips can move freely and don't lock up .Don't expect to get it overnight .I've been practicing the 2 beat for quite a long time .If I feel really balanced and relaxed I can do it fairly well but if I'm not thinking about it I can tend to go back to kicking the opposite way it should be especially with the left leg.

Dave


Dave

Last edited by daveblt : 09-11-2009 at 12:56 AM.
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  #25  
Old 09-10-2009
madvet madvet is offline
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One of the most helpful videos of a 2-beat kick is of Laure Manaudou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Gmf...eature=related

Here you can see that she kicks down to the bottom of the pool and not to the sides. I won't presume to be an expert, but I think at a non-world-record setting pace and at longer distances, the kick can be SLIGHTLY diagonal. BUT, I don't think you want to be kicking to the side walls of the pool.

Also, note that it is not really a scissors kick. The leg coming up is relaxed.
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  #26  
Old 09-10-2009
inca inca is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by madvet View Post
One of the most helpful videos of a 2-beat kick is of Laure Manaudou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Gmf...eature=related

Here you can see that she kicks down to the bottom of the pool and not to the sides. I won't presume to be an expert, but I think at a non-world-record setting pace and at longer distances, the kick can be SLIGHTLY diagonal. BUT, I don't think you want to be kicking to the side walls of the pool.

Also, note that it is not really a scissors kick. The leg coming up is relaxed.
Yes that video is very clear. I wish I could slow down the action,though, because it is hard for me to see everything all at once so quickly.
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  #27  
Old 09-11-2009
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Default Hip driven rotation

Yes, this looks really brilliant!

I am in the process of learning the hip driven rotation, and this is a very helpful video, as I find it difficult NOT to rotate from the shoulders.
After seeing this video, my explanation is this:

For every movement we do with any part of our body we need to have an anchor point. Unfortunately (or fortunately) we are floating in water, the anchor points are instable, and water resistance will work opposite to any movement. So the original anchor point will always have a tendency to move in the opposite direction of the initiated movement.
For a leg kick the hip is the anchor point (as long as we don't kick entirely from the knee - which we don't want anyway). Means: we use muscles attached to the hip to move the leg down. As the leg is confronted with water-resistance, the same muscle movement moves the hip up, which is stable only through the body and its own water resistance. In short, when the right leg kicks DOWN (to the bottom of the pool) the right hip simultaneously 'kicks' UP. The more sudden the movement the more sudden this effect. Since there is a body attached to the hip, it is not that the entire hip moves up, but it starts to rotate - right hip up, left hip down. As I can clearly feel when kicking in SG.

So, when the right leg kicks down, the right hip rotates up, and the left hip rotates down. Short: right leg kicks down, left hip moves down. If I transfer this rotation into the whole body (what I don't do if kicking in SG) I get the hip initiated rotation that I use to spear the recovered left arm down and forward.

Following this logic the same effect would be when I use the left leg and kick UP (instead of right leg kicking DOWN), then also the left hip rotates DOWN and I can spear the left hand down and forward.
Maybe that is what confuses people (including me).

So, the kick means kicking downwards and is on the same side as the pulling arm, or, on the opposite side of the recovering and spearing arm.

This far my understanding, hope I got it right...

Last edited by haschu33 : 09-11-2009 at 09:41 AM.
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  #28  
Old 09-11-2009
indysjl indysjl is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
...In short, when the right leg kicks DOWN (to the bottom of the pool) the right hip simultaneously 'kicks' UP. The more sudden the movement the more sudden this effect.
...

...
This far my understanding, hope I got it right...
This is my understanding too. Good explanation.

In your description, when the right hip kicks up, the left hip kicks (drives) down. I believe this is the motion we are calling "hip drive". Is this correct?
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  #29  
Old 09-11-2009
atreides atreides is offline
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Not to be confusing, but hip drive is the actual rotation of the hips using yourt hip flexors and lower abdominals. Watch Dikla Sasson's SPL video. She rotates her hips in an extreme manner but it illustrates hip rotation intitiated core drive. The idea is to not just move the hips but all of the muscles in the core (basically hip to kneck). This corkscrew motion actually advances the body through the water when combined with an anchor point. Picture yourself in a doorway. You can grab hold of both sides of the doorway and fling yourself through the door using your arms. Thats one way of advancing yourself through the doorway. Another way would be to hold on to the doorway and catapult yourself through it using your arms and the doorway as a lever. Another useful picture might be to imagine yourself at a medieval castle. You are part of a vast army that wants to get in but, of course, the guys in the castle don't want to let you in. So you and your comrades cut down several trees and mount them on wagons. Dodging the boiling oil, you wheel the logs up to the castle door. Then you tie ropes on the logs and attach them to anchor points above the log which allows the log to swing freely. You and your cohorts get behind the log and swing it into the door repeatedly until the door breaks down. Well thats how I picture core rotation. Your arms are the ropes that are anchored above. But the energy comes from the log itself (actually supplied by you and your cohorts) as it uses the ropes as a lever to supply a blow to the castle door. In the water, your arms establish an anchor point as your core flings itself though the anchor that your arms establish. That's why when you do core rotation correctly, you barely feel in resistence on your arms as you pull. Once you anchor your catch, you essentially fling yourself through with core rotation. Your "pull" is reduced to a collapsing catch as your body moves over the anchor that you established with your catch. Hope this helps.
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  #30  
Old 09-15-2009
Jean Bury Jean Bury is offline
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Default Thought I had it....sigh.

Quote:
Originally Posted by madvet View Post
One of the most helpful videos of a 2-beat kick is of Laure Manaudou
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q6Gmf...eature=related

Here you can see that she kicks down to the bottom of the pool and not to the sides. I won't presume to be an expert, but I think at a non-world-record setting pace and at longer distances, the kick can be SLIGHTLY diagonal. BUT, I don't think you want to be kicking to the side walls of the pool.

Also, note that it is not really a scissors kick. The leg coming up is relaxed.
Well, I watched this video clip and saw the kick that she does--wow, how much more helpful seeing is (for me) than reading about it, even though there are well-written descriptions (storming the castle metaphor) all over this site. So, thanks for finding this clip.

I think my next step is to figure out who near me has a video camera so I can actually see myself. My husband says my feet move in a similar rhythm, but that I am a bit more 'sideways' than this woman is.

So....frustration sets in.....could I be over-rotating? What is hard for me (and maybe for Inca too) is the feeling that you've been drilling and drilling and drilling and nothing's clicked yet. I HAD felt like things were clicking, but now I'm not sure. I guess that's why having a training buddy is so important; and right here we all have the next best thing, which is chance to talk it out.

Ok, enough ramble. Tomorrow, rain or shine, I AM heading up to Kangaroo Lake (7500ft) and drilling and stroking some more. Swim on. Jean
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