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  #41  
Old 08-01-2010
Jean Bury Jean Bury is offline
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Jean Bury
Default So....spear at the ear? or slightly further??

Ok, granted, it is for me 'before the second cup of coffee' so my brain may not be activated, but after reading about elbow position, I practiced on land and suddenly found that my body didn't remember anything (or so it felt).

I've read that when spearing, I should enter at or very near my ears (this leads to my forearm achieving that deep position fast). But I've also seen (Open Water DVD) people reaching slightly further than their ears on the entry.

It seems contradictory to me, still a beginner: spear near the ear with that mail slot entry, thus beginning my rotation over a vertical forearm OR reach just a bit further (say at the tip of my head) and first extend long then catch with forearm and bring to 90 degree position.)

Any thoughts? Ideas?? I suppose it would help if I posted a video of my swimming. [Egads, the thought of that is good (could use the online direct feedback) and scary/stagefright (what if I'm not as close as I think in 'getting it?']

Jean
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  #42  
Old 08-01-2010
borate borate is offline
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borate
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Check out these demos. The arm appears to be a foot (or so) above the head at initial entry, allowing for the high elbow
to be above the relaxed hand, and modest depth upon entry.

Then the spearing arm and shoulder stretch out to a streamlined profile. As that point, the shoulder of the recovering arm
is just out of the water as the roll completes and recovery begins.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJpFVvho0o4

It is possible that you have seen a suggestion that, before the extended arm begins its pull, it should wait in place -
until the recovering arm passes the ear. Some TI swimmers are even more 'patient' - note the second link, above.
(This in reference to the full stroke, as contrasted with drills.)

Precise timing is debated. As always, there can be variations, owing to individual capabilities, speed, and other factors.
Clarification and enlightenment are always welcomed.

Last edited by borate : 08-02-2010 at 03:59 PM.
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  #43  
Old 08-02-2010
flppr flppr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Bury View Post
Ok, granted, it is for me 'before the second cup of coffee' so my brain may not be activated, but after reading about elbow position, I practiced on land and suddenly found that my body didn't remember anything (or so it felt).

I've read that when spearing, I should enter at or very near my ears (this leads to my forearm achieving that deep position fast). But I've also seen (Open Water DVD) people reaching slightly further than their ears on the entry.

It seems contradictory to me, still a beginner: spear near the ear with that mail slot entry, thus beginning my rotation over a vertical forearm OR reach just a bit further (say at the tip of my head) and first extend long then catch with forearm and bring to 90 degree position.)

Any thoughts? Ideas?? I suppose it would help if I posted a video of my swimming. [Egads, the thought of that is good (could use the online direct feedback) and scary/stagefright (what if I'm not as close as I think in 'getting it?']

Jean
with the ear-hop drill, you spear close to the ears. with whole stroke, the dvd instructs to spear at the level of the opposite elbow.
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  #44  
Old 08-02-2010
tsesung tsesung is offline
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tsesung
Default hand placement and the slip?

Hi,
I've been really enjoying this discussion, and I'd like ask the following as I haven't found it in this thread:

1. As the arm is entering the water, which way should the palm be facing? I've heard that it should be facing a little outward; but in my own experience, it seems to make sense (and be a little more ergonomic) to have it facing a tiny bit inward. Suppose having the hand at horizontal (parallel with the pool bottom) is 9:00 (or 3:00), it seems to make sense to have it slightly at 10:00 (4:00), i.e., inward facing slightly. Has anyone opinions about this?

2. Probably related to #1 above: At a recent advanced workshop in SF, some of the coaches were talking about "the slip." That is, something that happens right at the catch, so that the forward arm suddenly changes and anchors as the other arm harpoons in. Does "slip" mean anything to anyone, and what does that look/feel like? Is elbow bending? Wrist? Which way is the anchoring or catching arm bent and facing?

Thanks so much-
Tse-Sung
Berkeley
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  #45  
Old 08-02-2010
atreides atreides is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Bury View Post
Ok, granted, it is for me 'before the second cup of coffee' so my brain may not be activated, but after reading about elbow position, I practiced on land and suddenly found that my body didn't remember anything (or so it felt).

I've read that when spearing, I should enter at or very near my ears (this leads to my forearm achieving that deep position fast). But I've also seen (Open Water DVD) people reaching slightly further than their ears on the entry.

It seems contradictory to me, still a beginner: spear near the ear with that mail slot entry, thus beginning my rotation over a vertical forearm OR reach just a bit further (say at the tip of my head) and first extend long then catch with forearm and bring to 90 degree position.)

Any thoughts? Ideas?? I suppose it would help if I posted a video of my swimming. [Egads, the thought of that is good (could use the online direct feedback) and scary/stagefright (what if I'm not as close as I think in 'getting it?']

Jean
Jean,

If you have the Easy Freestyle Demo, take a look at that little exercise that Terry does with his shoulder. He kind of hunches his shoulder and rolls it in a circle. What this exercise is designed to do his to loosen your shoulder up and allow your arm to swing backwards and forwards on the same track.

If you are standing in a pool, move your hand backward as if your are performing the pull part of the stroke. Now without removing it from the water move it directly forward to where you had it without lifting your hand up or changing the path that you made when you brought it forward. Do this with your right hand and then the left hand.

The forward motion of your arm is how you are supposed to recover. If you watch Shinji and Terry they both recover in this manner. This is the compact recovery that Terry preaches about and it does at least two things:

1. It uses very littly energy. Most people recover by lifting their hand and arm out of the water and moving their hand over their shoulder. The pathway is longer and more to the point it flattens the angle in which you spear the water.

2. When you drag your hand forward (and under your shoulder) over the same path it went backwards your elbow moves first followed by your hand. If you keep on the same path, your hand and forearm eventually become perpendicular (goes vertical) from your upper arm usually as it approaches your goggles. Shinji starts his spear at this point which leads to that ultra high entry he has. Terry moves his hand a little more forward which opens up the spearing angle more than Shinji's.

3. This spearing angle sets up the catch because if you are spearing at an angle then number of degrees you have to more your arm to get it back to vertical is less than if you spear straight out. If you spear out at 180 (straight out) then you have to move a full 90 degrees to set a vertical catch. But if you spear at 160 or 155 then you have cut 20 to 25 degrees out of the movement.

Unless I have made some sort of horrendous mistake, the compact recovery movement is distinctly different than what I see most swimmers do. But I have found that for me it is much more propulsive, consistent, and efficient than what I was doing. Just think of your arm as a metronome moving backwards and forwards across the water. Terry's new self coach video covers this in detail. If you can get it, I think you will find its well worth the investment.
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  #46  
Old 08-03-2010
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jean Bury View Post
It seems contradictory to me, still a beginner: spear near the ear with that mail slot entry, thus beginning my rotation over a vertical forearm OR reach just a bit further (say at the tip of my head) and first extend long then catch with forearm and bring to 90 degree position.)
Jean
It's more a skill-building process in which you reconcile or adjust aspects of the movement as your skill or kinesthetic awareness develops, rather than a contradiction.

When we teach Mail Slot in lessons and workshops, we usually introduce it with an Ear Hop sort of recovery/entry. This is because an entry angle that steep is unfamiliar to most and we introduce it with a bit of exaggeration, expecting that (1] the exaggeration will help swimmers gain a better sense of the change they have made; and (2] As they do, they will probably do it in a slightly less rigorous manner.

As the swimmer gains familiarity and the new movement becomes habituated, their goal should be to move the entry point forward incrementally, yet keep the entry as deft and clean as previously. In fact the farther forward you can get the forearm to slip through the 'slot' cut by the fingers the better. This means your catch will be farther forward, and thus the distance you travel on the next weight shift will be greater.

How do you accomplish this? I used the recovery exercises in Lesson 8 and the Single Arm drill in Lesson 9 of the Self Coached Workshop to improve range of motion in my shoulder and upper arm. It did take a good deal of patient muscle retraining to find that increased range of motion.
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Head Coach & Chief Executive Optimist

May your laps be as happy as mine.

My TI Story

Last edited by terry : 08-03-2010 at 03:30 AM.
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  #47  
Old 09-09-2010
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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haschu33
Default A Success story

Back from vacation and recovered from a cold...

First of all:
Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
...
As the swimmer gains familiarity and the new movement becomes habituated, their goal should be to move the entry point forward incrementally, yet keep the entry as deft and clean as previously. In fact the farther forward you can get the forearm to slip through the 'slot' cut by the fingers the better. This means your catch will be farther forward, and thus the distance you travel on the next weight shift will be greater.

How do you accomplish this? I used the recovery exercises in Lesson 8 and the Single Arm drill in Lesson 9 of the Self Coached Workshop to improve range of motion in my shoulder and upper arm. It did take a good deal of patient muscle retraining to find that increased range of motion.
That is an interesting point. I haven't got the 'Self Coached Workshop' DVD (although I am self-coachedly working hard) so I don't know what the Singla Arm drill is. Is that something that is in the 'Easy freestyle' DVD already ?


Now: I spent quite some time on doing core-balance drill and continous Zen switches with finger drag the last couple of days when I was in the pool. And? Yesterday for the first time since I started with TI-freestyle about a year ago my core balance drill on the right side felt nice and easy! I am absolutely delighted!
When I am on my right side core balance drill always felt very difficult. While on the left side it was always very easy, on the right I am very slow, I come to a stop when I rotate back from a sweet spot breath, it doesn't feel natural, it was hard work and just not right. I could never figure out what it really was, or what the difference is to the other side. Now, suddenly, it is as easy as on the left side. Amazing.
I did so many core balance and Zen switch drills at low speed that yesterday I felt every muscle in my lower back and today I have a massive fatigue in my entire back as if I did a day of lifting logs or something the like.

Yes, for most people it is a big success to shave some seconds off their 100m time, or swim continously with an SPL of 12 through a 25m pool, or whatever sensational experience. But this simple success through the core balance drill is something that I feel absolutely delighted about. Sorry, if I disappointed you.


I am just amazed about how the TI concept works :-))
Yes, I have to admit, we seem to be slightly crazy, at TI.


I will resume my sessions with the Tempo Trainer.
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  #48  
Old 09-09-2010
flppr flppr is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by tsesung View Post
1. As the arm is entering the water, which way should the palm be facing? I've heard that it should be facing a little outward; but in my own experience, it seems to make sense (and be a little more ergonomic) to have it facing a tiny bit inward. Suppose having the hand at horizontal (parallel with the pool bottom) is 9:00 (or 3:00), it seems to make sense to have it slightly at 10:00 (4:00), i.e., inward facing slightly. Has anyone opinions about this?
definitely not inward because you would have to turn on your forearm supinators. you want your forearm muscles to be turned off completely in recovery. sometimes, the angular momentum of recovery will cause the relaxed hand to rotate outward a bit.

Quote:
2. Probably related to #1 above: At a recent advanced workshop in SF, some of the coaches were talking about "the slip." That is, something that happens right at the catch, so that the forward arm suddenly changes and anchors as the other arm harpoons in. Does "slip" mean anything to anyone, and what does that look/feel like? Is elbow bending? Wrist? Which way is the anchoring or catching arm bent and facing?
i would like to know more about the slip, too. i think it is the slow downward drift i see in terry's catch arm while the recovery arm is descending toward the water, so that the catch arm is more vertical when the kick and weight shift occur, but i'm not sure. and what's the difference between slip and anchor?

Last edited by flppr : 09-10-2010 at 06:45 AM.
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  #49  
Old 09-10-2010
flppr flppr is offline
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flppr
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
That is an interesting point. I haven't got the 'Self Coached Workshop' DVD (although I am self-coachedly working hard) so I don't know what the Singla Arm drill is. Is that something that is in the 'Easy freestyle' DVD already ?
yes, its in there. its the hardest drill, imo.
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  #50  
Old 09-10-2010
splashingpat splashingpat is offline
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splashingpat
Default and when someone says it better anyway or just right to make it all click!

Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachGaryF View Post

Rhythmically
I liken the kick/spear
timing to that of a grace note in music:

the kick occurs just prior to spearing in earnest.
My downbeat in the kick finishes at about mid-spear,
or at about the time that I would be flat on my belly if I actually stayed there.

Just confirmed that watching a video of my swimming and
on the ubiquitous Shinji video
(visibile at the :50-:51 second mark here.)

i liken to the kick/spear timing is something ya get when it all comes together!


are "we" truly swimmN yet?
flat on my belly while kickN and catchN
then spearN & breathN side to side

how do you like to say it?
are you totally aware what goes into
freestyle crawlN?

& yet not all the Olympians
swim it the exactly same way!
they find their own snitch! do n't they?

i am findN
my( swimN and/or dancN)
i hope you find yours!

Last edited by splashingpat : 09-10-2010 at 04:02 PM.
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