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  #21  
Old 02-19-2016
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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David,

You are right that I spend more time walking than swimming, and I have been paying a little more attention to this while walking today. Here is what I find. I tend to inhale for two leg steps (right,left) and then exhale for another two. When I exhale, I seem to keep these stabilizers activated by exhaling with my mid-section (below my ribs, but above my pelvis) by leaving my pelvic part (where these muscles are) "expanded". Does this perception make sense? It would seem to imply that the price of stabilizing your torso is to breath with less than your full capacity.

I would be interested in your thoughts on this.
yes one way to maintain IAP is to not let your air completely out on an exhale. thus some pressure is retained. that is why in my prorgression, i talk about not letting all your air out and practicing retention of IAP with that technique.
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  #22  
Old 02-19-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachDavidShen View Post
yes one way to maintain IAP is to not let your air completely out on an exhale. thus some pressure is retained. that is why in my prorgression, i talk about not letting all your air out and practicing retention of IAP with that technique.
I don't need a lot of oxygen when I walk, but if I am pushing the tempo when I swim, I might. Is this a disadvangtage of this method, or can one learn to hold the abdominal tension even when one exhales down to the pelvic region? If so, how?
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  #23  
Old 02-19-2016
CoachDavidShen CoachDavidShen is offline
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Originally Posted by Danny View Post
I don't need a lot of oxygen when I walk, but if I am pushing the tempo when I swim, I might. Is this a disadvangtage of this method, or can one learn to hold the abdominal tension even when one exhales down to the pelvic region? If so, how?
if you think about it, you aren't breathing between breaths. ideally you aren't blowing out your air. you may be letting it dribble out, or you may hold it (i tend to hold it). you only blow it out right before you turn to air.

so holding most of that air until moments before you take a breath allows you to use the air to maintain IAP between breaths.

when you actually take a breath, there is minimal time between blowing it out and taking the inhale, and you should be renewing IAP on the inhale. when you blow it out during a swimming breath, i doubt that you can fully empty your lungs - if were to do that, i bet you'd expend a ton of excess energy trying to do it. it's not necessary, and therefore there likely is some air left in your lungs to aid in maintaining IAP.

i also believe you can train yourself to reflexively generate IAP when you call upon the body for movement, somewhat independent of needing a breath. in the case of swimming, you aren't needing so much IAP like you're about to lift a ton of weight. you just need to hold enough IAP to hold body shape to perform the movement.

the problem i see in swimmers, and especially with TI swimmers, is that they take the focal point of "relax" during swimming too far. mostly, that cue applies to people who are not comfortable with the water and hold a ton of nervous tension when in it. or work too hard at trying to swim where they are trying to use too much tension and energy. so for those that relax too much, they become the wet noodle. this is TOO much relaxation. so we have to bring their level of tension back up so that they can swim more effectively. the minimum level of IAP generated will create sufficient stiffness in your torso so that you can swim, but you don't need so much that you're going to lift a heavy rock off the ground.
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  #24  
Old 02-19-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Coach Dave and Danny

DAnny thanks for posting so many detailed questions. Coach Dave has addressed this iap and diaphragm breathing in another thread, but this goes so much more in detail. You are a whole lot more analytical than I am.

Coach Dave--I have printed your blog on optimal breathing and also parts of this thread to incorporate into not only swim practice, but dryland also. The goal is to promote better swimming, but I realize that any accomplishment in this area is bound to lead to better health.

Thanks to both of you

Sherry
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  #25  
Old 02-19-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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David,

Thanks for all of the detailed information in response to my questions. I will let you know if/when other questions arise. I appreciate your help!
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  #26  
Old 02-20-2016
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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For the past number of days I haven't been swimming and have been lying in bed with a cold. The worst part of this is what it does to my core muscles, which seem to completely turn off and go to sleep from spending so much time in bed. I am cringing when I think about what this will do to my swimming when I get back in the pool. Has anyone got suggestions for how to re-activate the core muscles after too much time in bed? My first thought is mindful walking with special attention to posture, weight shifting and the timing of shoulder and leg recovery to maintain alignment. What? You don't spend your time thinking about these things when you walk? You don't know what your missing...
In addition to the other suggestions people have made, I'll pass along the following:

In chapter 8 of his book The Brain That Changes Itself, Norman Doidge, M.D. tells of a study done by Drs. Guang Yue and Kelly Cole which compared two groups of subjects. The first group exercised a finger muscle, Monday through Friday, for 4 weeks, doing trials of 15 maximal contractions with a 20 second rest between each. The second group followed the same program, but only imagined doing the 15 maximal contractions with a 20 second rest between each, while also imagining a voice shouting at them, "Harder! Harder! Harder!" The first group increased their muscular strength by 30%, while the second group improved their muscular strength by 22%. The conclusion was that part of the gain in muscular strength in the first group was actually occurring because the neurons responsible for the movements were being activated and strengthened, and that this was also occurring in the second group, in which the subjects only imagined making the movements (G. Yue and K.J. Cole, 1992, "Strength increases from the motor program: Comparison of training with maximal voluntary and imagined muscle contractions" Journal of Neurophysiology, 67(5): 1114-23).

So you might be able to slow your rate of decline during an illness, in some degree, by imagining that you are swimming!


Bob McAdams
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  #27  
Old 02-20-2016
jenson1a jenson1a is offline
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Wow I would have thought that the difference in percentages (30 to 22) would have been a whole lot larger than 8%.

Sherry
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  #28  
Old 02-20-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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Originally Posted by CoachBobM View Post
In addition to the other suggestions people have made, I'll pass along the following:

In chapter 8 of his book The Brain That Changes Itself, Norman Doidge, M.D. tells of a study done by Drs. Guang Yue and Kelly Cole which compared two groups of subjects. The first group exercised a finger muscle, Monday through Friday, for 4 weeks, doing trials of 15 maximal contractions with a 20 second rest between each. The second group followed the same program, but only imagined doing the 15 maximal contractions with a 20 second rest between each, while also imagining a voice shouting at them, "Harder! Harder! Harder!" The first group increased their muscular strength by 30%, while the second group improved their muscular strength by 22%. The conclusion was that part of the gain in muscular strength in the first group was actually occurring because the neurons responsible for the movements were being activated and strengthened, and that this was also occurring in the second group, in which the subjects only imagined making the movements (G. Yue and K.J. Cole, 1992, "Strength increases from the motor program: Comparison of training with maximal voluntary and imagined muscle contractions" Journal of Neurophysiology, 67(5): 1114-23).

So you might be able to slow your rate of decline during an illness, in some degree, by imagining that you are swimming!


Bob McAdams
Bob,

that's an interesting story. Unfortunately in my case, I suspect I may already be topped out in the fantasy swimming department. The symptoms for this include the fact that I spend so much time on this forum :o). If time squandered thinking about swimming technique was the prime factor in how well one swims, I would have been in the elite category a long time ago.

Oh well, we all have to build on whatever strengths we have....
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  #29  
Old 02-20-2016
Danny Danny is offline
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David,

One more question. It seems to me that in order to activate the stabilizers in the pelvic region, one must also activate the butt muscles (the gluteus?), which control the position of your pelvis, because these are the muscles that "push back" against the stabilizers. When you lie on the floor, the floor can play this role, but when standing, the butt muscles are needed to do this. Do you agree with this? These butt muscles play a critical role for me, because they are also needed to stabilize my hip joints. My personal experience is that the hard part of this may be learning to activate these butt muscles, and once this is accomplished, the d-breathing is not so hard to learn.
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  #30  
Old 02-20-2016
CoachBobM CoachBobM is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
Bob,

that's an interesting story. Unfortunately in my case, I suspect I may already be topped out in the fantasy swimming department. The symptoms for this include the fact that I spend so much time on this forum :o). If time squandered thinking about swimming technique was the prime factor in how well one swims, I would have been in the elite category a long time ago.

Oh well, we all have to build on whatever strengths we have....
Well, keep in mind that the subjects in the study didn't just think about the finger exercises - they actually imagined that they were doing them. The equivalent for swimming would be to imagine that you're actually swimming. (Perhaps the equivalent of imagining a voice saying "Harder! Harder! Harder!" would be the sound of a Tempo Trainer signaling when to stroke?)


Bob
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