Total Immersion Forums  

Go Back   Total Immersion Forums > Freestyle
FAQ Members List Calendar Search Today's Posts Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #11  
Old 08-16-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

Werner,

Even in the Richard Quicks video from 15 years ago it is advised to look down and not to look forward, so Mats example of the typical competetive swimmer teachings are from a long gone time.
I think he could be right that there can be too much focus on short term succes and crazy hard work ethics to conquer all problems.
I remember when a highschool competetive swimmer and waterpoloplayer friend invited me to join a waterpolo training some day.
Didnt have more than 5 hours total lifetime freestyle experience, so totally exhausted after the training.
They said I had good basic swimspeed, but ball handling was not that great.
Perhaps better to take up normal competetive swimming.
So they dropped me between 14 year old girls as a 16 year old boy.
Should be easy to keep up with those little girls they said.
Spend 2 saterdays being totally dusted and overswum by those little girls. You know these girls can swim fast. Coach was only making gestures that I should keep on going and swim a bit faster.
Never have swum freestyle again for the next 34 years.(max 300m total per summer)
That was the macho atnosfere that I didnt like. works for some , but not for al.

Modern high level swim training is much more sophistacated as it used to be.
In stroke mechanics not much we can improve upon current knowledge, or we have to invent a really different stroke.
As a system to teach adult swimmers the swim basics for a certain purpose TI has its place.

Mack Horton is from standard swimtraining I believe, or is he a TI fan?
Looks like a TI poster boy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=30s72mgX570

Last edited by Zenturtle : 08-16-2015 at 01:52 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 08-16-2015
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
straight shoulders, and open chest and armpit works best for me.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...erwater-8a.jpg

Danny
Dont understand what you are doing exactly, but you will find out yourself I guess.
I too like the penguin! The one advantage (I think) he has over us is that he doesn't have to rotate...

I suppose I was hoping to find someone on the forum who had encountered similar problems (or knew someone who had) and had opinions on how to address them, but so far there are no takers. I guess you are right on this one ZT. Looks like I'm on my own...

Last edited by Danny : 08-16-2015 at 01:10 PM.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 08-16-2015
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2011
Location: Hamburg
Posts: 1,104
WFEGb
Default Promised: Last off topic in your thread, Andy

Hello Zenturtle,

Charles once posted: If you can't swin easy 100m in 2min, technique should be your very first choice. Think that's very right, since then I consider, how easy they have to be to be easy.

Quote:
...So they dropped me between 14 year old girls as a 16 year old boy....
Surely you had some shy girls admiring you (for what ever...)! I guess this experience was some years too early for you to turn out as a good one...

Quote:
...Mack Horton is from standard swimtraining I believe, or is he a TI fan?..
Wow, seems to be far more TI-like than Sun Yang and most others. (As always too less under water shots...).

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Had a pooltime some years ago with a befriended women. She trained with some German elites (v.Almsick, Steffen...) and didn't know about TI. Her two main commandments: 1-relax as much as possible; 2-get the feel for the water.

Last edited by WFEGb : 08-16-2015 at 02:28 PM. Reason: Addition
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 08-16-2015
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Here's a question that maybe ZT knows the answer to: The swimmer Shelly Ripple in Richard Quick's videos does not swim with an elbow-up recovery. Have you seen any discussion about how to do a recovery like hers? How much of the mechanics of the stroke needs to change if one is to go from an elbow-up recovery to one like hers? what changes in the shoulder position of the recovering arm?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 08-16-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

If the strokerate goes up and the roll is happening fast, the arm is almost swinging to the outside automatically.
Its not someting to do on purpose, but just keep the mass under the elbow relaxed and ley it follow its natural path.
This mass follows the novement of bodyroll and shoulders, only has to be steered to the point where its entered.
You could try to just make the elbow angle 135 degrees by lifting the forearm from the elbow a bit while bringing the arm over.
From the swinging wide at the start of the recovery a 135 degree arm angle is not so different from a 60/90 degree elbow angle.
Realy straight arm is totally different.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 08-16-2015
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

This drill seems to do some explanation.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xxKK7Wed9jg
As Quick explains, the arm is supposed to stay in front of the plane of the body through the shoulders, in the scapular plane. This is no different from elbow up. The main difference seems to be that her hand is above her elbow during recovery. Of course that extended hand greatly increases the rotational inertia of the recovery and raises the question as to whether the recovering arm is driving the body rotation or the body rotation is driving the arm. All in all having a missile like that hand swinging so far from the body seems like a potential threat on the shoulder joint.

The main dictate, however, seems to be the same: stay in the scapular plane. I wonder what the scapular plane looks like on the side of my bad shoulder?
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 08-17-2015
CoachStuartMcDougal's Avatar
CoachStuartMcDougal CoachStuartMcDougal is offline
coach
 
Join Date: Jan 2012
Posts: 1,353
CoachStuartMcDougal
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
straight shoulders, and open chest and armpit works best for me.
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...erwater-8a.jpg

Danny
Dont understand what you are doing exactly, but you will find out yourself I guess.

Question for Descending

It would be interesting to hear what you are searching in TI.
I have symphaty for TI, and the inside out swimming approach, but looking in the pool , the best swimmers have a normal competetive swimming background.
I cant find much wrong in what is teached today in competetive swimming.
Thanks for your "TI sympathy" ZT, but sympathy is not required. TI is not only for the novice, but scalable at all levels. You don't have to use your core. If you are the outside-in swimmer, puller and kicker, a shoulder driven stroke works for you, by all means let it work for you - keep on pulling dude.

Stuart
MindBodyAndSWIM

Last edited by CoachStuartMcDougal : 08-17-2015 at 02:30 AM.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 08-17-2015
Danny Danny is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442
Danny
Default

Hi Stuart,

I am such a long time fan of TI that I can't resist the temptation to chime in here. I have an old book of Terry's on TI that goes back to 1996. The book is dedicated to three of Terry's coaches: Dick Krempecki, Bill Irwin, and Bill Boomer. None of us works in a vacuum, and it seems that Terry wanted to acknowledge this on a personal level. The ideas that Terry has so forcefully spread among us did not come out of thin air and most (if not all) of them can be found in one form or another also advocated by other excellent coaches. The question then becomes: exactly what is TI and what is not? If someone is following similar principles (such as inside out swimming) but did not learn them from TI directly, should that person be thought of as a student of Terry's or Richard Quick's or Bill Boomer's? I am personally an agnostic on this issue. I know that I would never have learned these things had it not been for Terry, and I am eternally grateful to him for that. But I perceive an enormous overlap in the teachings of all of these coaches. Terry reached me because he was focussed on teaching people like me, not elite athletes, and I think that's wonderful, but TI is not a religion. We shouldn't try to classify people as either "for it or agin it."
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 08-17-2015
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2014
Posts: 1,898
Zenturtle
Default

I have recognized my arm focused tendency already a long time ago and have gotten interested in the inside out apprach since then.
I guess Charles isolated roll stuff fired the most interest in this aspect of the stroke.
There are lot of ways to swim while using the core in a slightly different manner. Not many coaches say forget the core and only pull.
Still like to do pull sets though. .-)
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 08-17-2015
descending descending is offline
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Posts: 226
descending
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
First, I am not claiming that this approach in any way reflects TI doctrine. On the contrary, I am finding that, because of shoulder limitations on my right side, I am having trouble recovering the way that TI suggests. So I am looking for compromises.



Not sure I understand the description you are giving above, but let me try to clarify my description. In the moment when my forward arm is extended before the catch, my shoulder will be touching my ear, but it will be rotated so that my elbow is up. At some point during the catch and pull phase, this shoulder moves back and winds up below my head (as the other shoulder comes forward). By keeping my shoulders narrow (as if going through a small hole) I think I am delaying somewhat the movement of my shoulder in the direction of my feet. In other words, my catch must occur more because of body rotation while the catch shoulder is still in a forward position. Maybe this is why I find this approach helpful, it forces me to use body rotation at an earlier stage to initiate my catch, not sure. The position I am talking about here will stretch your pectorals, not shorten them and it will not drop my elbow.

It is possible that the reason why I am having difficulty describing what I am doing is simply because I don't really understand what I have been doing. If so, then please let me know that what I am saying doesn't make sense. Maybe this will help me to understand my own motions!
Do you by chance have the ability to take video? That would clear it up b/c it's so difficult to talk about these things in written form only and be exacting. I know it's hard to get the video done we practice at 530 and it's dark out and everyone is sleepy. Videos are not exactly on the menu it's more like fall in the pool and get warmed up. Making a small hole front on is definitely doable if you have the shoulder flexibility to get the deltoid against the cheek with the shoulder blades retracted. I threw up a warning sign when I read 'hunching' in your title b/c that is exactly how to not do it. Hunching to me means rolling the shoulder forward of the scapular plane which is the opposite of what we want. Think military posture tall and proud. It's definitely easier to put the shoulder on the cheek by rolling it forward and hunching, but then the swimmer has almost no chance to catch and pull early and will probably cross midline straight away at extension. The only way to catch and pull at that point if a swimmer hunches is to wait for the body to unroll to begin catching, not catch early on side. Lots of propulsion is left on the table at that point when waiting to unroll for catch and pull timing.

Last edited by descending : 08-17-2015 at 11:44 AM.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

vB code is On
Smilies are Off
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 07:35 PM.


Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.