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  #21  
Old 11-29-2013
ananthaditya ananthaditya is offline
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CoachSuzanne,

You made a very interesting point that brings out another aspect of this amazing drill. Any chance we can see a video? I'm inclined towards the idea that since honing rotational momentum is one of the goals of NAD (and SAD by extention), less rotational momentum might be counter-productive because of various reasons... tensing the body or making it difficult to imitate whole-stroke breathing, etc.

Thanks.
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Last edited by ananthaditya : 11-29-2013 at 11:27 AM.
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  #22  
Old 11-29-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Peacefully disagreeing with my TI friends; always delightful.

I like SAD (as an acronym for Single Arm Drill), though it sounds a bit sad, which is sad but not that bad (that reminds me the hink pink stuff lol)

I really love these various perspectives from which we look at swimming, and how they can co-exist, look alike to some extent, but be different in a good ways. I tried to make my perspective very simple. It is built around br momentum. Like the heart that beats, and that should never stop beating. Like the pendulum that goes tirelessly from left to right to left to right... look at the pendulum, your eyelids are getting heavier, soon you will fall asleep to the count of 3.

1-2.... kidding ya :)

Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
p.s thanks for the clip Charles - it's really fascinating (and love that feed in shot!)
Glad you liked. Those planning to participate to 2014's FINA Master Worlds downtown Montreal will find the decor very familiar ;-)

Last edited by CharlesCouturier : 11-29-2013 at 03:22 PM.
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  #23  
Old 11-30-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
I suppose nothing is inherently "good" or "bad", however the way I teach it is a much slower, more deliberate movement with a pause in the glide position in order to feel the body rising back to the surface after entry...thise play between sinking & bouyancy is a key in getting struggle free breathing working well as far as timing. When 2 arms are added back in there is much less amplitude...so the subtleness of how recovery causes the body to sink is easier to miss. But this is a key part to tune into to make several improvements.
Suzanne, the explanation above really clicked for me when I tried this today. In fact, the drill became quite relaxing and pleasurable, because the amplitude of my sinking and rising with one arm was so large that I found myself waiting a little on each stroke in order to time my breathing with the up phase.

I even found that I could do this drill with my stroking hand balled in a fist, at least when I was breathing on my stroking side. I also tried breathing on the non-stroking side, but there I needed to stroke with an open hand, at least at the beginning. Breathing on the non-stroking side puts much more emphasis on body rotation, and again because of the large amplitude of the sinking and rising, this can be very relaxing and rhythmic.

The hard part of all of this is converting these learnings back to two sided stroking where, as you say, the amplitude goes way down. At first I wasn't able to notice it at all, so I started adjusting the timing of my stroke in an effort to reinforce it enough to detect it. It definitely helps with breathing, but it is so subtle that it still remains a challenge.

Using two sided stroking where I attempted to tune my stroke to reinforce the sinking and rising, my stroke became both faster and my SPL dropped. However, when I started trying to do this over a distance of more than 300 m, I started getting tired, presumably because I was doing too much of the work up front in my arms and shoulders and not enough in my hips. So I will need to play around with this some more to see if I can make this effect work in a more relaxed hip driven manner.

Anyway, these exercises are a lot of fun to play with. Thanks to both Charles and Suzanne for the clarification!
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  #24  
Old 11-30-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Danny View Post
... I also tried breathing on the non-stroking side, but there I needed to stroke with an open hand, at least at the beginning.
This bit confuses me Danny. As I understand it, CoackSuzanne's SAD involves having one arm extended in spear while the other strokes. How can you breath to the side of the spearing arm?? If your arm is held in spear it would have to be raised above the surface of the water in order to rotate and you would then sink while simultaneously trying to breath in your armpit!

p.s
I asked CoachSuzanne if she would explain a little more about what she wrote on timing/breathing re her SAD to shed some light on what sounds like a really fruitful drill.
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A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
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Last edited by Talvi : 11-30-2013 at 12:42 PM.
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  #25  
Old 11-30-2013
nurledge nurledge is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
How can you breath to the side of the spearing arm?? If your arm is held in spear it would have to be raised above the surface of the water in order to rotate and you would then sink while simultaneously trying to breath in your armpit!
2 variations of SAD, breathing on stroking/spearing side and non-stroking side. breathing on the spearing arm, means you take a breath while the arm doing the water push or toward the end of the stroke before hand recovery begin.

I found that so many focal points we can do with SAD. Here is the list I can think of:

Focal points:
- body rotation/hip drive
- wide track hand recovery
- breathing low, breathing bi-lateral
- Water push, high elbow catch
- water catch/holding
- kick timing either 2bk or 6bk

now i understand why one calls it "king of drill"

Last edited by nurledge : 11-30-2013 at 03:32 PM.
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  #26  
Old 11-30-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Talvi View Post
This bit confuses me Danny. As I understand it, CoackSuzanne's SAD involves having one arm extended in spear while the other strokes. How can you breath to the side of the spearing arm?? If your arm is held in spear it would have to be raised above the surface of the water in order to rotate and you would then sink while simultaneously trying to breath in your armpit!

p.s
I asked CoachSuzanne if she would explain a little more about what she wrote on timing/breathing re her SAD to shed some light on what sounds like a really fruitful drill.
To clarify, I believe Suzanne and Charles both advocate doing this drill with the non-stroking arm at the hip, not extended. When it is extended, the drill is apparently useful for butterfly, but I haven't spent much time trying this. If you look at the video Charles posted, you can see breathing on the stroking side (which he refers to as SAD) and breathing on the non-stroking side (which he refers to as UNCO). When I refer to the spearing arm, I am referring to the arm which is stroking, not the arm at the hip.
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  #27  
Old 11-30-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Thanks Danny. I was in a total tangle. Tried the drill I imagined (with arm extended) and couldn't get anywhere with it. Though I suspect I wouldn't get much further with it arm at hip.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #28  
Old 11-30-2013
Danny Danny is offline
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Talvi, I think this drill is not as hard as it seems at first glance. First, try it for just a few strokes without breathing. Try to pay attention to the fact that you sink when your arm comes out of the water and you rise again when your arm goes back in up front. You may have to wait for just a little when you spear forward to feel yourself rising. Once you have a feel for the timing of the sinking and rising, try now to time your breathing so that you breath at the apex of your rise. Since the rising and sinking occur relatively slowly, this is not that hard. If you succeed in breathing at the apex, it will be very easy and comfortable. I think the SAD (breathing on your stroking side) is the easiest of the two. By the way, it probably helps to flutter kick, like in skating, as opposed to anything like a 2b kick, although I am not sure about this.

Good luck!

As I said before, the really hard part of this exercise is to use the learnings when you go back to two sided swimming, because there the rising and sinking is so subtle it is very hard to recognize.

Last edited by Danny : 11-30-2013 at 08:50 PM.
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  #29  
Old 11-30-2013
Talvi Talvi is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
...initiating rotation by using the other arm to pull/push defeats part of the purpose of this drill. Removing that arm forces you to find the core muscles, and find gravity and find the anchor in the opposite leg that helps you rotate. That frees up the other arm when it is ready to enter again for an effective stroke.
So, if this is the heart of the matter, can anyone expand a little? I watched Charle's video but it's too advanced for me. I had been attracted here by the idea of a drill focusing on one arm at a time but does such a thing work with the 2bk? I want to stick with the basics until I have some fluidity before throwing variations like 6bk etc into the mix, and am trying to get some symmetry (I have a recalcitrant right arm!). Is this the wrong approach? I have more of a problem with over-rotation, rotating at the wrong time etc., than with rotating at all Twisting about in the water seems to come relatively easy so the issue for me is how much and when and how shoulders and hips rotate (together, syncopated, more/less than each other etc) than with making them do anything in particular.
__________________
A psychological disorder is: "Any personal construction which is used repeatedly in spite of consistent invalidation."
~ George Kelly

"The water is your friend.....you don't have to fight with water, just share the same spirit as the water, and it will help you move."
~ Aleksandr Popov
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  #30  
Old 11-30-2013
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Breathing on stroking arm side should be preferred for a while, but it may reveal to be challenging for those who still elevate their head to breathe in. Common wisdom claims that we should only work on UNCO, that is breathing on opposite side. However the downside of this approach is that it still allows people to press down to elevate their head to breathe in.

So for someone with a sound/clean breathing action, I'd say that SAD is easier. Once SAD is correctly mastered, then it's time to work on UNCO as well.
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