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  #21  
Old 04-09-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal View Post
What's your spl and tempo for your 500m race pace now?
It's about 17-18 SPL during my USRPT sessions (maybe 19-20 during the last failing repeats)--my green zone runs from 15-19.

I have been doing these sets without a TT, but by extrapolation: 18 SPL = 20 beeps of TT (40 beeps for 50m), so tempo for 50m in :43 would be 1.08 or so. Tempo for my fastest recent 50m's at :37 would be around 0.93 if I did the math correctly.

I can swim that speed with a lower SPL (say 16) but my perceived effort goes up. So increasing stroke rate seems to be reducing my work load right now--any thoughts about our mismatch?
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 04-09-2017 at 12:29 PM.
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  #22  
Old 04-09-2017
tomoy tomoy is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
any thoughts about our mismatch?
I'm guessing it has something to do with what tempo you're talking about.

At a very slow tempo of something like 1.4s per stroke, there's a lot of slowing down between strokes, so each one will seem hard. Your perception may be that going 1.2s per stroke very well could be easier.

At 1.0s per stroke, then there's not as much time lost decelerating, and trying to go 0.8s per stroke could take a notably more energy, per Stuart's expectation.
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  #23  
Old 04-09-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
It's about 17-18 SPL during my USRPT sessions (maybe 19-20 during the last failing repeats)--my green zone runs from 15-19.
As a non-expert I am extremely curious as to what is happening during your last failing repeats, and perhaps immediately prior to that. "Fatigue" would be too non-specific to be an adequate answer. Are your pectoral and shoulder muscles failing at the weakest points on the propulsive chain?

Or are you losing your core control? Are you losing your alignment as your brain goes to mush? Or is it the coordination that is lost, leading to "wrong" movements, rather than "weaker" movements.

The fact that you are grading your "fail" on time alone, and not on SPL (which, incidentally, has just slipped out of the high end green zone) would suggest to me that you are continuing to stroke at the same uniformly high rate, in which case your failing time at the point of failure would be solely attributable to the rising SPL i.e. shortening stroke length.

It would seem to me that attention paid to exactly what is happening here at the point of breakdown would be extremely valuable in determining what is the most directly useful training/corrective measure to prevent such breakdown, or at least to delay it further.
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  #24  
Old 04-09-2017
WFEGb WFEGb is offline
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Hello Tom,

Quote:
I think you're asking how is my TI technique holding up with me spending so much time ignoring SPL and swimming lots of fast/race pace stuff. If that's what you mean, my answer is:
Your answer was quite interesting, because your work with SPL and your GZ could be mine exactly... although I'm much slower...

Let me try to ask my original question a little bit clearer (hope so):
- When you're working your USRPTs without a TT, how do you find your different paces in parts of seconds?
- And how do you filter out your day-form (mood, stress, short sleep, light cold... )? Think it can be done over a more or less large number of pooltimes only.

Best regards,
Werner
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  #25  
Old 04-10-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
Let me try to ask my original question a little bit clearer (hope so):
- When you're working your USRPTs without a TT, how do you find your different paces in parts of seconds?
Werner,

thanks for the questions. Interesting to hear that we're such a close match as far as SPL. Whenever I feel good about getting faster, I just have to turn to look at the youth swim team record board at the side of the pool. I can't even match the 100m pace for girls 9 years old and younger!

I have found that my pace for a given SPL is pretty consistent as long as I keep the stroke rate and perceived effort the same. So, :45/50m is my default pace for 15 SPL at moderate exertion, and :43/50m for 16 SPL, etc. I'm not sure if anyone else feels that their pace is so closely associated with a given SPL, but it seems to be that way for me.

That consistency of pace is a good starting point. Then during USRPT sets I am just swimming by the clock, trying to hit a level of perceived effort that I know from experience will get me close to the pace I want. It's very holistic, an overall "feel" rather than the precise data a TT gives. I like that vague holistic approach--I enjoy going by feel, and it's also more realistic about what I'll need to do to pace myself during long open water swims. It does often take me a few repeats to settle into my target pace--I am often too fast at the beginning of a set (maybe because I'm not used to swimming this fast, and think I have to have a higher SR than I actually need when I begin--hence swimming :37 instead of :43 for a first repeat, etc.)

But I am consistently hitting 20+ repeats in a row on the same time to the second, so this holistic approach can be quite accurate. When I was running a lot, I could also tell my pace within a second or two per mile without a watch. I don't understand how our bodies can do this, but I really enjoy this approach. Work with a TT offers other very specific advantages, but if I had to pick one, I'd pick swimming without a TT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by WFEGb View Post
- And how do you filter out your day-form (mood, stress, short sleep, light cold... )? Think it can be done over a more or less large number of pooltimes only.
The filtering seems to happen automatically for me. Swimming is usually the best part of my day, and I'll spend lots of time thinking ahead to what I'll be doing the next time I get in the pool. I'm usually either incredibly eager to swim, or kind of dreading the next hard USRPT set (or both)--either way, lots of anticipation. This, to me, is the best thing TI has done for me--helping me enjoy so much what I am doing. Not because of any accomplishments, but because I really enjoy the process and the continual small insights that help me understand better. Everything else fades into the background and disappears when I am swimming, and I never seem to get bored. Right now I am swimming 5 days per week--I'd probably do 7, but don't have access to a pool on weekends.

Do you find it hard sometimes to drop "real life" from your mind to focus on swimming? For me, maybe it's the other way around--I find it hard to drop swimming from my mind to think about real life sometimes! (It helps that I seem to be making some good progress with speed right now--it's very motivating to see small successes each day).
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Last edited by Tom Pamperin : 04-10-2017 at 03:31 AM.
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  #26  
Old 04-10-2017
Tom Pamperin Tom Pamperin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
As a non-expert I am extremely curious as to what is happening during your last failing repeats, and perhaps immediately prior to that. "Fatigue" would be too non-specific to be an adequate answer. Are your pectoral and shoulder muscles failing at the weakest points on the propulsive chain?
My perception is that it suddenly becomes very difficult or even impossible for my arms to maintain SR. Shoulders, chest, and arms get very heavy and just won't move fast enough. Stroke shortens dramatically as a result--I just don't seem to have the energy to stretch out for a longer stroke.

I haven't noticed that I'm losing balance or core tension, or making extremely "wrong" movements--just not able to maintain SR.

Quote:
Originally Posted by sclim View Post
The fact that you are grading your "fail" on time alone, and not on SPL (which, incidentally, has just slipped out of the high end green zone) would suggest to me that you are continuing to stroke at the same uniformly high rate, in which case your failing time at the point of failure would be solely attributable to the rising SPL i.e. shortening stroke length.

It would seem to me that attention paid to exactly what is happening here at the point of breakdown would be extremely valuable in determining what is the most directly useful training/corrective measure to prevent such breakdown, or at least to delay it further.
That's kind of what I'm thinking, too. My current hypothesis is that it may be chiefly a question of neural adaptation, and I will be able to hold SR and SPL longer and longer with more practice at those SRs.

These are great questions, by the way--thanks for making me think. I'd love to hear what other experienced swimmers or coaches might have to offer about what exactly is causing the failures, and how to train effectively to extend the distance I can hold my pace for.
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  #27  
Old 04-10-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin View Post
These are great questions, by the way--thanks for making me think. I'd love to hear what other experienced swimmers or coaches might have to offer about what exactly is causing the failures, and how to train effectively to extend the distance I can hold my pace for.
Well, I can't offer any original thought of my own, but I can't help remembering what Terry keeps focussing on when he analyses the performances of the best in the world -- typically they sustain their low SPLs in critical races right to the end while the 2nd place finishers often dramatically increase their SPL at the end. Consistent low SPL right to the end seems to be the hallmark of these champions.

In my quick search of his articles I didn't come up with the best examples in my memory, but here is his comment on Katie Ledecky's thoughts after her American record for 500 yards set in March this year.

http://www.totalimmersion.net/blog/r...ounts-strokes/

Note that Katie wasn't pleased with how her stroke count slipped between first half and 2nd half due to poor pacing. The corollary of that is that she is focussed on keeping SPL even, that she counts her strokes even in the stress of competition, and thus she thinks that maintaining stroke count throughout an event is important; one assumes that her training is designed to delay or prevent deterioration of stroke length despite increasing fatigue. That's how she got to be the best in the world.

Last edited by sclim : 04-10-2017 at 03:57 AM.
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  #28  
Old 04-10-2017
sclim sclim is offline
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Tom, I just read your reply again, and realized you said your perception was that your upper torso got tired and you were not able to maintain SR. That means your pace deteriorated as a result both of declining SR and increasing SPL. Are you sure about this? You didn't use a TT and you have a pretty good innate feel for your SPL, and you said it felt like your SPL increased to about 19 when you failed your pace criterion. Assuming the 19 SPL estimate is accurate on the failed repeat, can you back calculate your actual stroke rate from your time result on your failed attempt and the 19 SPL? Maybe the increased SPL alone was enough to explain the failed pace. Just wondering.
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  #29  
Old 04-10-2017
Zenturtle Zenturtle is offline
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when I getr tired its mostly my alignment and balance that start to give way to the forces of the limbs.Timing precision starts to fail next.
Drags starts to increase when that happens and all goes into a downwards spiral.
Maybe its a good idea to really focus on your alignnent when you get tired and at the start of tiredness.

Does the rear ends starts to fishtail a bit?
How does your arm force translate to your vessel?
Do you still slide through the water as a rigid canoe or does the canoe starts wiggling and bending slightly in uncontrolled manners?
Does your body still lies high on the water or does it start to sink a bit?
Does your kick connect and transfer directly through your trunk to your arms?
Does it get more difficult to get a low breath?

Mostly someting is getting sloppy in this area and when controlling and toning everyting between arms and legs, drag drops and arm and leg actions transfer better in forward movement again.

Thats hapening in my case anyway. Yours might be different.
You have worked a lot on these basic things so maybe you have strengtened these basic actions in the past without much upperbody load.
When swimming faster than 1.40min/100 the forces on the arms start to increase. At lower speeds these forces are minimal, but because drag increaes with the square of speed, these forces go through the roof if speed increases.
Maintaining constant speed with smooth transitions becomes ever more important at higher speeds.

Last edited by Zenturtle : 04-10-2017 at 06:14 AM.
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  #30  
Old 04-10-2017
s.sciame s.sciame is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gary p View Post
There are some interesting new bulletins by Dr Rushall on the USRPT website. One thing he mentions is that on a USRPT program, you will reach your maximum fitness (for the given frequency of trainining, anyway) in about 12 weeks. After that, you're only going to make meaningful speed gains via technique improvements. That was pretty much my experience. In fact, I initially stumbled across TI when my speed had plateaued on USRPT and I was googling for swim technique videos.
That's a very good point and perhaps deserves a dedicated thread in order not to be lost. Let's continue there.

Salvo
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