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  #1  
Old 11-28-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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andyinnorway
Default Terrys elbow time motion study

I wanted to compare Terry's and some other swimimers elbow movement during stroke cycle to compare to my own to see if there was something to learn

I now know why Freestyle swimming is hard to get a relaxed rhythm on.

The timing of one stroke cycle is split into 7 equal beats.

Assuming the elbow takes a full half circle journey with a pause for the glide phase of the stroke the timing breakdown is as follows.

3 for recovery
3 for glide
1 for pull

so if my calculations are correct then perfect 'pull' timing is to start as the recovery arm reaches 2/3 (!!!CORRECTED IN POST BELOW!!!) of the way around the semi circle, (also logical as this is where you have the most power potential to accelerate against gravity and a typical spearing angle for killing prey) by the time the elbow reaches the end of its semi circle cycle one beat later (slightly submerged in spear phase) the alternate hand is already finished pulling and beginning the recovery phase.

this is quite illuminating to me, I would have thought the pull phase was longer.

I will also look at hackett and yang and see how they compare.

Last edited by andyinnorway : 11-28-2011 at 02:16 PM. Reason: correction
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  #2  
Old 11-28-2011
borate borate is offline
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Quote:
andyinnorway wrote
...so if my calculations are correct then perfect 'pull' timing is to start as the recovery arm reaches 2/3 of the way around the semi circle...
Your observations jibe with commonly seen timing where one hand begins its pull as the other is about to enter.

Yet there are differences in speed and style among skilled swimmers...
In some TI demos experts use a very 'patient hand' - delaying the pull until the spear has entered. Like Shinji, these folks have excellent balance.

Last edited by borate : 11-28-2011 at 01:41 PM.
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  #3  
Old 11-28-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Actually not jibing since my timings are based on the position of the elbow not the hand entry, as the elbow reaches the top of the spear (1 oclock) the hand is about to enter the water?

Still my 7 beats theory needs so more thinking as there has to be a mid point symmetry.
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Old 11-28-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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The 7 beats is right since I have timed the movement frame by frame, just got confused on the maths for a second but your comment (borate)helped me out. The spear starts at 2 oclock not 1 and the timing of that is at 3.5 which makes it symmetrical with the other hand on beat 7 and the pull.

LEFT HAND beat positions
1. ELBOW EXIT
2. ELBOW AT 11 OCLOCK
3.ELBOW AT 1 OCLOCK
3.5 ELBOW AT 2 STARTING SPEAR
4. ELBOW AT 3 OCLOCK STARTING GLIDE PHASE
5. GLIDE ELBOW STILL
6. GLIDE ELBOW STILL BUT CATCH INITIATED
7. PULL


LEFT HAND RIGHT HAND SYMMETRY

1/4
2/5
3/6
3.5/7
4/1
5/2
6/3
7/3.5
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  #5  
Old 11-28-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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Liked the way you have broken the stroke movements.Doesn't this beat change with varying tempos?
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  #6  
Old 11-28-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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good question, perhaps Terry could answer. The video looks as if it is filmed around 55 strokes per minute.

I am wondering what other swimmers maybe like now. I will look at rebecca adlington tomorrow as she has very early catch, have a feeling she may be a straight 4

Catch, Pull, Recover, Spear

Up until I looked into this today, I have been thinking in 6 for my stroke

1 Spear, 2 stretch, 3 Catch, 4,5 Pull 6 Recover

Last edited by andyinnorway : 11-28-2011 at 02:41 PM.
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  #7  
Old 11-28-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
good question, perhaps Terry could answer. The video looks as if it is filmed around 55 strokes per minute.

I am wondering what other swimmers maybe like now. I will look at rebecca adlington tomorrow as she has very early catch, have a feeling she may be a straight 4

Catch, Pull, Recover, Spear

Up until I looked into this today, I have been thinking in 6 for my stroke

1 Spear, 2 stretch, 3 Catch, 4,5 Pull 6 Recover
Andy, your 7 beat theory is one reason I'm not a big fan of the double time TT...the stroke is not evenly distributed in the time cycle, and yes, the timing will change at different tempos. Shinji and Gary Fahey both have videos on youtube showing stroking at tempos varying by 0.10 seconds per stroke. They are above water only, but maybe you can get some information there.

Personally, at faster tempos, I try to spend less relative time in the recovery phase, but I do not know how that would then affect the spear & pull, since presumably the pull of the opposing arm would be sped up a little bit...but I do know that it is not simply the same stroke sped up.

Also, depending on where your front quadrant swimming overlaps the timing will change. ie...is the catch just starting, or just completed when the other arm spears? both would be the extreme ends of front quadrant swimming.

I had one other thought that was relevant that has just fled my mind. SO probably another post on this later. :)
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  #8  
Old 11-28-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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thats what I was concluding about the double TT after investigating this.

I had a quick look at some of the others

Shinji CGI was consistent with Terrys 7 beat

Ian Thorpe was super even, 2 beat recovery, 1 beat catch, 1 beat pull

Sun Yang I couldnt get a good side profile but I think similar timing to Thorpe

and rebecca adlington ????? She starts the catch before the other hand leaves the water and begins spearing at 11 Oclock and pulling at the same time.

Very interesting brain teasing day.
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  #9  
Old 11-28-2011
terry terry is offline
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This is a fascinating way of examining or understanding the stroke. It does accord with one thing I have long felt intuitively-yet-strongly about but had not tried to confirm via an objective form of measurement such as you have.
My feeling has been that the oft-noted acceleration of the hand during the mid-to-rear part of the stroke is something that happens naturally, rather than something a swimmer should strive consciously to do.

What observers have always thought is hand acceleration, I have long thought should more accurately be considered body acceleration -- relative to hand position. If you're stroking effectively, the hand's position will change relatively little at that point, but the weight-shift-cum-toe-flick will move the body much more rapidly.

The fact that your analysis of my stroke timing shows me spending 3x as much time in recovery, and another 3x as long in extending-to-catch as I spend stroking tells me that my kinesthetic sensation matches your observation. And indeed, that ratio is something I strive to refine and imprint. I practice leisure in recovery and catch with great frequency. I never try for speed or acceleration in the stroking portion. That just happens.
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  #10  
Old 11-29-2011
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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If you would like music to swim by, Pink Floyd's "Money" is in 7/4. I tried humming it today and it wasn't really helpful. :)
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