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  #11  
Old 11-09-2011
aerogramma aerogramma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Hi unanonimous,

Nevertheless, the movement you are demonstrating is nice for demonstrating purposes, but it is not what you do in water. In the water you wouldn't extend your arm in front of you, but you would start having your arm extended right above your head. That makes it even more difficult and will not work at all without that 'tilt' in the elbow.
mmm.. that doesn't make too much sense to me

your arm IS extended in front of your shoulder when you initiate the catch, spearing fully is one of TIs strongholds.

it doesn't matter if the movement starts above the water.

PS on the subject check coach brian skatch drill...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZXX9XHx0mM

Last edited by aerogramma : 11-09-2011 at 09:51 PM.
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  #12  
Old 11-10-2011
haschu33 haschu33 is offline
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Not sure about this.

What coach brian shows on land is the demonstration of the arm movement. The arm movement regarding what the elbow does is ok. But in water you have a completely different angle on your front between arm and body while the shoulder being the fulcrum. If you do the forearm movement in the way it happens in water it gets a lot more difficult to to keep the upper arm stationary while moving the forearm.
I attach some picture to demonstrate what I mean.
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File Type: jpg Capture2.JPG (19.1 KB, 20 views)
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  #13  
Old 11-10-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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Default Same in the water for me

I see your fulcrum pictures, but if I lie on a footstool then my movement will still be the same as my video yesterday, but maybe the hand should go lower than the nipple as I first suggested. More like under the lip of the ribcage, start there and extend out and in, its actually easier in the water as your momentum means your elbow is catching up with your spear hand anyway so that as desired the hand is hardly moving in the water, just your body is moving in respect to it
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  #14  
Old 11-10-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Not sure about this.

What coach brian shows on land is the demonstration of the arm movement. The arm movement regarding what the elbow does is ok. But in water you have a completely different angle on your front between arm and body while the shoulder being the fulcrum. If you do the forearm movement in the way it happens in water it gets a lot more difficult to to keep the upper arm stationary while moving the forearm.
I attach some picture to demonstrate what I mean.
I am practicing HEC and wanted to share my experience. I feel the upper arm can be high and made stationary and the the forearm made to drop under the elbow if the spear is a bit shallow.To get the high elbow (i.e to get the elbow up) it requires the shoulder's inner rotation.Also one needs to wait for the right timing(the hip rotation) for the catch and before the other arm spears, adjust the lead hand for the shoulder rotation or elbow flexion for a high elbow and execute the catch. I think I am getting a good catch.What are your views?

Last edited by arunks : 11-10-2011 at 05:41 PM.
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  #15  
Old 11-10-2011
aerogramma aerogramma is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by haschu33 View Post
Not sure about this.

What coach brian shows on land is the demonstration of the arm movement. The arm movement regarding what the elbow does is ok. But in water you have a completely different angle on your front between arm and body while the shoulder being the fulcrum. If you do the forearm movement in the way it happens in water it gets a lot more difficult to to keep the upper arm stationary while moving the forearm.
I attach some picture to demonstrate what I mean.
I see but I'm still missing your point, with regards to learning an effective catch.
I think the skatch drill or any land excercise for what matters, are designed to try to the best of your ability to learn a particular movement. Obviously you'll neve be able to replicate the same conditions you have in a pool on land and therefore the movement may vary and look even more different due to water distortion.

it's a drill and a tool like the others, some might find it useful some not.
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  #16  
Old 11-10-2011
johnny.widen johnny.widen is offline
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In the Spring I did some effort to get a High Elbow Catch and I felt like I was coming somewhere, but after seeing me on video, I gave it up. The sight of it wasn't near of what I thought it was. I had to study it more, especially to get it right to prevent me from shoulder injuries that I had seen some warnings for. I decided to prioritize other focus points for the upcoming open water season.

Your thread has really inspired me to give it a chance again. It was very obvious that it was needed after I took the title and the end-title scenes in my video My Total Immersion Story. It really reveals that my elbow is quite low.

When I swam during the 60's, I learnt the S-pull, and during my year with TI I have gone away from that, but there are much more to start to work on.

When I did my little Spring work, this video from DistanceDave was one of those I studied: Starting the discussion on high elbow catch in a front quadrant stroke. Do you have any saying on what Dave says?
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  #17  
Old 11-10-2011
johnny.widen johnny.widen is offline
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Default Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen on Early Vertical Forearm

There are some clips with Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen where she shows how she thinks one can get faster freestyle. I found them interesting and searched the forum to see if she has been discussed before, and yes! She has. There were lots of posts and I didn't read them all. In the thread What can we learn from Karlyn P-N? I found this post from Terry.

You can see her swim in Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen Faster Freestyle

Details are descibred in
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  #18  
Old 11-11-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by johnny.widen View Post
There are some clips with Karlyn Pipes-Neilsen where she shows how she thinks one can get faster freestyle. I found them interesting and searched the forum to see if she has been discussed before, and yes! She has. There were lots of posts and I didn't read them all. In the thread What can we learn from Karlyn P-N? I found this post from Terry.

You can see her swim in Karlyn Pipes-Nielsen Faster Freestyle

Details are descibred in
Thank you Johnny for posting these videos.I really like the way KPN demonstrates the catch.But I was confused in the 5th video(also posted in another thread) i.e "Recovery -Exiting the stroke" where she says that the power phase of the pull is in the action of the catch.(Look from 0:43 to 1:05). But i was of the view that the catch is a low power activity which sets up for the pull.I had also a posted a thread on this.Am I getting this right.What are you views?

Last edited by arunks : 11-11-2011 at 10:06 AM.
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  #19  
Old 11-11-2011
arunks arunks is offline
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She again talks about the catch and pull in video I talked at 3:09.Still not clear as to where the catch stops(not sure if it is vertical forearm) and the pull starts and ends.Are there clear distinction as to where the catch starts and ends and the pull starts and ends. Does this vary from person to person?

What is the power phase of the pull?I thought the power phase of the pull happens after catch is done i.e(after getting the vertical forearm under the elbow) and you push afterwards with the vertical forearm backwards. Also is the power phase of the pull she talks about because of the recovery action she has and hence different from the traditional style?

Last edited by arunks : 11-11-2011 at 03:20 PM.
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  #20  
Old 11-11-2011
andyinnorway andyinnorway is offline
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She explains well and is someone every swimmer can learn something from, if you can't challenge yourself rather than her.

If we keep our learning minds open then we can pick the best bits of all our reference points and hopefully find some of our own.

To paraphrase salt and peppa "a body like arnold with a denzel face", "or balance like Shinji with a Laughlin grace".

the thing that amazes me is how differently I see these videos and likewise the ti training dvd's when i watch them again after a three month pause.

you understand them on a different level or see something important for the first time that your brain couldn't assimilate before because you didn't have the prerequisites, whereas when you come back to them later the learning you may have recently acquired gives you the knowledge to get more from the coaching or tip being made.
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