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  #31  
Old 10-03-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by andyinnorway View Post
Here are the arrows. My main point is that in the past we have discussed EVF as something done by flexible freaks and not attainable by us mere mortals, however, Sun Yang has realised that there is a DPS advantage to keeping the elbow rotated down whilst reaching (for the lost item on top of the wardrobe) and then going into a EVF catch to maximise the propulsive element.



Or am I the only one seeing this?
Andy, that frame of Sun, is that a breath? If so it's not a fair comparison. I also don't think we can assume Sun's 'intentions' that the angle of the elbow is a trade off for DPS. I can't see a biomechanical reason why that particular angle would create a longer vs. shorter DPS.

But nevertheless its an interesting discussion.
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  #32  
Old 10-03-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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It seems sun is doing what I was describing to coach Suzanne with an elbow down entry and then rotating the elbow for evf as his wrist drops?

All this is about setting up effective catch and dps. There is no evf without shoulder rotation. In the old days this shoulder rotation was done out of the water and people visualized and accomplished a better catch by spearing thumb down? Now some like to visualize and rotate elbow as they spear, what Andy refers to as modern elite technique and what Suzanne described? Does that make Sun a post modern elite ti hybrid? Sun seems to initiate his pull by drawing his shoulder blades back and down and then pulling with lats? Maybe I am seeing things?

For me the later I rotate into the evf the better. Easier on the shoulder and better initiation from lat and shoulder blade.
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  #33  
Old 10-03-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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For me there is a biomechanical advantage to spear elbow down because I get a few inches more reach. This may not actually move the effective catch any further forward but I can reach further if I don't pre rotate the elbow.
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  #34  
Old 10-04-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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The question, at least sometimes, is as to if you're actually gaining distance per stroke as a result of this.

I'm pretty sure Shinji would agree that part of his dps secret is rather what occurs at the back of the stroke, this snap he does. Controversial I know, but I still teach it. I mean everything counts when you're on a 9 strokes diet but sometimes that reach forward isn't as productive as we may think.

But as they say, the proof is in the pudding. So if you're doing something that negatively affect your DPS, then you may not be doing the right thing for you.
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  #35  
Old 10-04-2012
Jeffinhawaii Jeffinhawaii is offline
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Yeah I should have described the "biomechanical advantage" as a "biomechanical difference" but I just stuck with the original wording. I don't think that it really matters in the water, at least for me. I tried to feel the difference in the water today in variations of when to rotate the elbow. I think it comes down to comfort and flexibility. I'm not very flexible so I rotate just as I start the pull. I also think that the very front of the catch, while it can be a deciding factor for elites in sprints, is not the meat and potatoes of dps for most swimmers. Yes it is important but Feel for the water and maintaining "grip and push" on the water through the middle and back end of the stroke is probably more important. Like you pointed out shinji gets quite a bit of power at the end and all pull in the right direction counts.
I still think the power of shinjis "flick" kick is underestimated by most people. His left leg snap is pretty forceful looking. Does he maintain that same power in his kick for 1500m?
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  #36  
Old 10-04-2012
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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this analysis of Sun's stroke by Brent Rushall may be of interest:

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/champion/sy1225.htm
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  #37  
Old 10-04-2012
CoachSuzanne CoachSuzanne is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
this analysis of Sun's stroke by Brent Rushall may be of interest:

http://coachsci.sdsu.edu/swim/champion/sy1225.htm
critics of the overlap dont appreciate that the streamlining seen during propulsion with the opposite arm allows for a more efficient stroke. stroking sooner may reduce zero propulsion moments but each propulsive effort occurs against a higher drag profile using more energy. i think he's full of it.
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Fresh Freestyle

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  #38  
Old 10-04-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Can someone tell me if Rushall's article is worth wasting time reading it?

This guy has shown consistent record of being wrong, or mainly wrong in most of his works on swimming.

Right now I read this "Sun Yang swam the first 1,400 meters of the race with a two-beat kick." which is dead wrong. Is the rest of the document worth reading?
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  #39  
Old 10-04-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Arrrgggrrrrrr..... he got me once again

" Overtaking strokes are relatively common in male distance freestylers. The inherent errors of motion and undesirable limitations of that stroking format could be argued as being the principal reason why the men's 1,500 m race has improved the least of all swimming races and strokes over the past decade (even despite the introduction of the performance-enhancing super suits). Grant Hackett's world record set in Fukuoka in 2001 was 14:34.56. In this race, Sun Yang improved that record by .42 seconds. Until overtaking and uneven stroking characteristics are removed from men's distance-freestyle, the record will remain quite stagnant. Given the usual growth characteristics/curves of world records, to which the men's 1,500 m does not comply, the record for this event would seem to be potentially the easiest to break and the amount of improvement should be very substantial."

This above, seems to completely dismiss the fact that the second position was won by someone displaying an elevated stroke rate. This also tends to forget other swimmers such as David Davies and the like, who could not beat Hackett.

Anyway.... Ahhhh scientists.....
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  #40  
Old 10-04-2012
CharlesCouturier CharlesCouturier is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne View Post
critics of the overlap dont appreciate that the streamlining seen during propulsion with the opposite arm allows for a more efficient stroke. stroking sooner may reduce zero propulsion moments but each propulsive effort occurs against a higher drag profile using more energy. i think he's full of it.
In fact, scientists tend to use their calculator machine to calculate their stuff.

Swimmers oppose their sense of touch to this. Like I often mention, they have thousands of sensors all along their body to inform them about their acceleration/deceleration cycle. All swimmers have that. Only the best can really use it in an optimal way. In other words, Sun knows or feels when it's time to apply forces.
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