elbow angle prior to catch

[Jeffinhawaii]

Thank you Charles, I get it now. I agree that Suns catch looks very early and steep. He is also effectively sprinting compared to Shinji and Terry and Sun has a faster stroke rate (slow by modern olympic standards but 65 is still pretty quick compared to ti) and I think higher spm and higher speeds also increase ones possible catch angle slightly for a given flexibility. Does anyone have a video of a very high 10-2 catch at a very slow cadence, say in the 40s? Do most elites use a little less vertical evf at slower paces?

[CoachSuzanne]

Just a random comment...

In january coach dave, coach helenita and I were doing some fun swimming at the end of a training day in Maho Bay, St. John. *you should all come to the next one !!!***

I gave Helenita one of my focal points for improving the EFV...it was very cerebral and she tried it and said , "meh". (or not, I don't know...it didn't do it for her).

Then Dave told us both to simply spear the water with the elbow pointing to the side (the 3/9 position). She tried it and light bulbs went off in her head! A transformed stroke! I tried it to and the visualization of simply entering with the elbows pointing to the side allows me to simply drop the wrist into the catch. The rub is that getting the arm there during the entry takes some focus and activation of of deltoids and internal rotators of the shoulder.

I think a good EVF...truly early...allows for a higher stroke rate because you're pushing less water in a direction that's not productive...a slightly smaller surface area going ONLY in the direction you want ot ti go. The slightly steeper angle (the 4/8, 5/7, 6/6 crowd) includes a vector pushing water downward (or outward), yes, even in Terry & shinji's stroke. Mine is no better...but I've noticed when I really focus on an EVF using Dave's focal point or one of Coach TOdd's drills he shared in LA (Todd if you're reading, it's the 4 step switch drill), that my stroke is over earlier yet I' move further than the more relaxed catch I typically have.

I could be totally wrong...I'm no expert on this. Like Terry says, if I were I'd have been swimming Div 1 rather than dropping off my HS swim team in 9th grade...

[Jeffinhawaii]

That's a very effective way to visualize it. My only concern is that for some it would be too much internal rotation. In effect if your elbow points to the side you would spear the water thumb down unless you hold you rotate your wrist. For me it works better to spear with elbow down and then as the wrist flexes to initiate the catch, my elbow rotates more easily to the side. For some reason the wrist flexing starts the elbow rotating and bending and that triggers the lats to pull the shoulder blade back and down. You probably have more flexible shoulders than I do. But humor me and hold your arm out and see if you can feel what I am talking about.

[CoachSuzanne]

Originally Posted by Jeffinhawaii

That's a very effective way to visualize it. My only concern is that for some it would be too much internal rotation. In effect if your elbow points to the side you would spear the water thumb down unless you hold you rotate your wrist. For me it works better to spear with elbow down and then as the wrist flexes to initiate the catch, my elbow rotates more easily to the side. For some reason the wrist flexing starts the elbow rotating and bending and that triggers the lats to pull the shoulder blade back and down. You probably have more flexible shoulders than I do. But humor me and hold your arm out and see if you can feel what I am talking about.

i wouldn't teach this until well after someone was able to enter the water with a neutral palm facing back , not thumb down. The forearm remains relatively supinated and not pronated, as if the palm was laying flat on a surface and only the elbow was rotated.

The key is that visualizign the 9/3 position improves the motion even if I don't actually hit that position.

[CharlesCouturier]

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne

Just a random comment...

In january coach dave, coach helenita and I were doing some fun swimming at the end of a training day in Maho Bay, St. John. *you should all come to the next one !!!***

I gave Helenita one of my focal points for improving the EFV...it was very cerebral and she tried it and said , "meh". (or not, I don't know...it didn't do it for her).

Then Dave told us both to simply spear the water with the elbow pointing to the side (the 3/9 position). She tried it and light bulbs went off in her head! A transformed stroke! I tried it to and the visualization of simply entering with the elbows pointing to the side allows me to simply drop the wrist into the catch. The rub is that getting the arm there during the entry takes some focus and activation of of deltoids and internal rotators of the shoulder.

I think a good EVF...truly early...allows for a higher stroke rate because you're pushing less water in a direction that's not productive...a slightly smaller surface area going ONLY in the direction you want ot ti go. The slightly steeper angle (the 4/8, 5/7, 6/6 crowd) includes a vector pushing water downward (or outward), yes, even in Terry & shinji's stroke. Mine is no better...but I've noticed when I really focus on an EVF using Dave's focal point or one of Coach TOdd's drills he shared in LA (Todd if you're reading, it's the 4 step switch drill), that my stroke is over earlier yet I' move further than the more relaxed catch I typically have.

I could be totally wrong...I'm no expert on this. Like Terry says, if I were I'd have been swimming Div 1 rather than dropping off my HS swim team in 9th grade...

The best possible clip on EVF, one I constantly refer to even on the other site, has to be this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jXsE7apdQMs

Again, every single time I refer to a Clip on EVF it has to be this one, as I find it is the only one that can make EVF accessible to all (or most).

Some stuff in there could be misleading. For instance, when they mention flat position, they don't mean swimming the front crawl in flat position, but rather that one may want to wait until the body reaches flat position before catching (patient catch, that is). I think most if not all content in this clip is dead right. And quite frankly the coach having done this clip, wow. He knows a thing or two about swimming for sure...

But you'll see that there's a clear mention about simply pulling a tidy bit wider and pointing the elbow outward, in order to achieve an EVF.

I tried it, it's very easy, but when I realized that it had a very bad impact on my stroke count (went up to 18), I did swear a bit, then decided that crap wasn't for me LOL

[andyinnorway]

Charles, your picture of Sun is post elbow 'pop' so later in the stroke cycle than the spear angle I was originally investigating, which it seems this thread is heading towards too.

I didn't want to start a discussion on EVF, but more the bit before the catch.

If I put my arm in the water with the elbow in the 9-3 position or higher I will have less reach than if I put it in lower, this is because the elasticity of the muscles in the higher position pulls my arm into a wing arc so I lose 2 or 3 inches of reach.

I am suggesting this is a factor to why Sun achieves astonishing DPS because he has chosen to not do the usual elite EVF technique, even though he keeps his elbow high when he catches as per Charles' picture on spear he uses a lower elbow to maximise reach. His stroke is a hybrid of TI reach that becomes elite EVF only once the catch is initiated?

[DD_l_enclume]

Andy,

About this 9-3 position.
If I understand correctly, that means the elbow is pointing to the side.

But doesn't that mean that the forearm would be parallel to the bottom if was to achieve a 90° angle between the forearm and the upper arm (which is easy if the elbow points to the side), and that my hand would touch my nose ?

But I don't think I've ever seen any swimmer having forearm parallel to the bottom.

Am I wrong somewhere ?

[CoachSuzanne]

Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume

Andy,

About this 9-3 position.
If I understand correctly, that means the elbow is pointing to the side.

But doesn't that mean that the forearm would be parallel to the bottom if was to achieve a 90° angle between the forearm and the upper arm (which is easy if the elbow points to the side), and that my hand would touch my nose ?

But I don't think I've ever seen any swimmer having forearm parallel to the bottom.

Am I wrong somewhere ?

I think we are generally talking about where the elbow is pointing if one were to draw a line bisecting the angle between the upper & lower arm...rather than talking about the line that the upper arm makes. Not sure if that helps as I don't really follow your description either (no offense). Pictures and drawings would help a lot, lol.

[andyinnorway]

Originally Posted by DD_l_enclume

Andy,

About this 9-3 position.
If I understand correctly, that means the elbow is pointing to the side.

But doesn't that mean that the forearm would be parallel to the bottom if was to achieve a 90° angle between the forearm and the upper arm (which is easy if the elbow points to the side), and that my hand would touch my nose ?

But I don't think I've ever seen any swimmer having forearm parallel to the bottom.

Am I wrong somewhere ?

Here are the arrows. My main point is that in the past we have discussed EVF as something done by flexible freaks and not attainable by us mere mortals, however, Sun Yang has realised that there is a DPS advantage to keeping the elbow rotated down whilst reaching (for the lost item on top of the wardrobe) and then going into a EVF catch to maximise the propulsive element.



Or am I the only one seeing this?

[DD_l_enclume]

Originally Posted by CoachSuzanne

I think we are generally talking about where the elbow is pointing if one were to draw a line bisecting the angle between the upper & lower arm...rather than talking about the line that the upper arm makes. Not sure if that helps as I don't really follow your description either (no offense). Pictures and drawings would help a lot, lol.

Image of what I meant attached.
I think I'm even worse at drawing than at anatomy.
How come Picasso made millions of $ with such things.

Anyway, the left shows the right arm extented, and the arrow shows what I understand as 3 oclok position.
The right picture with the elbow bent : the forearm in on the head of the swimmer.
Now I'm pretty sure I either didn"t understand the 9/3 stuff, or I seriously need anatomy lessons !
:-)

Does that make sense to anyone ?