Best way to get the right kicktiming?

[Zenturtle]

I have very little awareness of the kicktiming in my backstroke and cant make sense of the timing.

In freestyle the rotational downkick comes roughly together with the end of the same side push and the other side arm extension.
The rotational downkick is helping rotation to the other side.

A normal backstroke kicktining is the same, only the downkick is now called an upkick.
So, kicking up with the rightside leg goes together with the end of the rightside push and the entry of the left arm .
ONlly difference is, the rightside upkick rotates the body further down on the rightside, at the moment you want to rotate to the left....
Do the rotational kicks have another timing in backistroke compared to freestyle?


Where are the rotational kicks in Lochtes stroke?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_fO-VyjieA

A significant part of the end of the armpush is used to help rotation in backstroke. Thats how it feels to me, and looking and the movement of Lochtes arm and hand at the end of the push, a lot of water is pushed down instead of purely backwards.
This downward endpush helps rotation. Agreed?

Compared to freestyle, backstroke works better when adding dynamics to the stroke it seems.
Connecting the end of the push and slingshot the other arm forward at the same time with rotation seems an important ingredient in backstroke. Without speed most of this effect is lost. Agreed?

[s.sciame]

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

A normal backstroke kicktining is the same, only the downkick is now called an upkick.
So, kicking up with the rightside leg goes together with the end of the rightside push and the entry of the left arm .
ONlly difference is, the rightside upkick rotates the body further down on the rightside, at the moment you want to rotate to the left....
Do the rotational kicks have another timing in backistroke compared to freestyle?

Hi ZT, this theme has always puzzled me, I try to give my point of view: the way I see it is that this freestyle-like-pattern (right kick-left entry, left kick-right entry) is actually implemented only by Ryosuke Irie:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NotwR_Ex5s

I love his kick (by the way he's also my favourite backstroker) but it seems to me that the majority of backstrokers, including Lochte, do quite the opposite: right kick-right entry, left kick-left entry (with the kick slightly delayed vs the arm entry). This last pattern is coherent with body rotation, Irie's pattern theoretically is against it. IMHO, body rotation in backstroke is driven more by the recovery arm and rhythm and less by the kick, and kicking is more about propulsion, so any kick timing could be fine as long as it is a propulsive kick (but again this is only my personal opinion). It seems to me that kicking often follows body rotation instead of driving it (or at list it aids just the final portion of rotation).

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

A significant part of the end of the armpush is used to help rotation in backstroke. Thats how it feels to me, and looking and the movement of Lochtes arm and hand at the end of the push, a lot of water is pushed down instead of purely backwards.
This downward endpush helps rotation. Agreed?

Yes, at expense of stroke rate (but Lochte's SR is obviously fast anyway). Recently I'm trying to let go of this final push and make an early exit thumb up, to easily increase my SR and following the popular approach that power is at the front of the stroke and not at the back. It's funny because the stroke feels more light and rhythmical, and the speed more constant, but the tradeoff is that the body rotates less and the stroke gets shorter.

Originally Posted by Zenturtle

Compared to freestyle, backstroke works better when adding dynamics to the stroke it seems.
Connecting the end of the push and slingshot the other arm forward at the same time with rotation seems an important ingredient in backstroke. Without speed most of this effect is lost. Agreed?

Yes.

Cheers,
Salvo

[Zenturtle]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1NotwR_Ex5s

yep, thats a kick I can more are less imagine doing. Here you see a forcefull downkick that acts the same way as a 2BK downkick only done with the back side of the leg instead of the frontside.
Downside seems to be a large downward push from arm and leg at the same time what gives a lot of updown movement next to the rotation.
Its the same lift and fall that can be seem with a lot of 2BK swimmers with too much pulse force in their stroke instead of smooth force.
The guy doesnt look very streamlined. If this isnt a power stroke I dont know what is.
Only for strongman, swimming this way. He is doing it with great rhythm. Can imagine this stroke feels good and powerfull if you have the strenght to keep it going.

I gues the kicktiming setlles with time. Sometimes some kicks fall in place when starting out with a relative fast kick instead of trying to swim in slow motion and consciously thinking about the timing.
Like you said, it happens more when concentrating on armtiming and rotatiing the hips and torso following the recovering arm and pushing with the other arm
No idea what legkick (s) helped rotation.

Anyway I dont think its the same basic (rotational) timing as freestyle although it may look the same.

Some good stuff on underwater dolphin kick that also applies to normal kicking I think
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afpN9fOGu9s

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0UVIdDWwE14

[Zenturtle]

From above water, the japanese guy is looking great.
Incredibly stable.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cslxxJU-A5U

Thanks, going to try his kicktiming. Nice and simple. Easier to grasp for adult learners.

This kick makes more sense to me than the normal kick, and cant be that bad judging Roland Matthes results with the same technique:

Roland Matthes (born 17 November 1950) is a retired German swimmer and the most successful backstroke swimmer of all times. Between April 1967 and August 1974 he won all backstroke competitions he entered

Irie doesnt seem to use that much power as it looks like from underwater footage:

Irie initially trained in freestyle, but began swimming the backstroke alone for long periods before and after practice. Backstroke was suitable for Irie because it did not require as much power as freestyle, and soon, Irie began winning national-level competitions and breaking junior high school records.


Actually Lochtes timing is imaginable looking at it from below from 0.30 to 0.45 seconds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7CmM_Z3Zt5U
His rotation is helped by a simultanuous up and downkick right at his switch from side to side.
This double effective kick is almost in the horizontal plane.
Now his kick makes sense too. Have to watch this one a lot though to swim along mentally. Its all going a bit fast.

[s.sciame]

Absolutely, so stable - he used to train with a bottle on his head to perfect keeping the head still - and so above the water.

Also worth noting in that video that he sets the 200m world record in spite of relatively short pushoffs, and in spite of being only 1.78m and 62kg (Lochte is 1.88m and 88kg). This guy is so technical to be able to survive among those backstroke giants. He's having a hard time with Lochte because Ryan takes a lot of margin with his long pushoffs and powerful uw dolphin (Phelps' school), but in the stroking 35m little Irie is slightly faster.

Let me know how it goes if you try that kick. I tried it for a while long ago, but with me it didn't make miracles :)

[Zenturtle]

I think Lochtes timing is easiest to get when focussing on the other leg upkick at the very end of the push with the hand.
That way it makes sense rotationwise and helping the recovering arm smashing forward together with bodyrotation.

Until now I tried to kick up with the same side leg at the end of the push,just like freestyle, but that didnt work, so I forgot the legs and focussed on arm action while keeping straight without knowing what the legs where doing.

I like Lochtes underwater footage more. Less updown and less kick amplitude. HIs head is not so stable because he extends so much that his spine bends a bit.

I think rhythm and body tautness are the most important items in backstroke. Without that its very tiring on the arms and shoulders.

Normal kicktiming is pretty good to follow on this video
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K3EY1k9rNXI
Upkick at the same side extension, just after other side push. This upkick goes together with a downkicking other leg.

[descending]

Not sure how you were taught back, but most good swim coaches are going to have you learn how to nail body position and kick b/f they add in arm action. Trying to add kick timing to the arm stroke is really tough I'm not sure I could coordinate it and swim backstroke that way. The more I think about it I venture to guess I'd be lost if I tried to swim back with arm action as the focus and then add in intricate kick timing. I think this is one reason so many adults find a 6 beat kick so difficult with freestyle. They build their stroke backwards with arm action first and then try to add leg action by fitting them into the stroke cycle.

This drill is so old I was doing it in the 70's and it hasn't changed one bit! If you use the kick to power rotation the shoulder and subsequent arm action will just happen and it becomes just like freestyle in that it's a recovery stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaKl8b8NYSg

There is a reason you don't see people emulating Ryosuke and his kick technique. He is a 1 in a million with total perfection of his body position and stroke timing grabbing enormous amounts of water. Quite simply he is a freak that can get away with it.

[fooboo]

That premature backstroke 2bk puzzles me too. Seems I changed
something and now I could not kick as I did previously.

At the moment I think I'm too high in the water. So high that legs
are almost out of the water. Further, I cannot make analogy to
freestyle 2bk. At crawl I could easily prepare kick and have it
when I want it. In backstroke... just different. From previous times,
when I did not ponder a kick at all and had it properly. I will try
to explain what I do: i.e. on the left side, right shoulder out of the
water. Right arm recovering, rotating to the right side. During
that, left arm makes 90 degrees at elbow and anchors, and makes
final flap.

In freestyle I prepare 2bk. I tense glute and have leg ready to kick.
Now what in backstroke? I'm relaxed on the water, balanced. See
no way to tense and not to break a balance. I have to move leg a
bit down to have a kick up later. Thinking about, every moment
is wrong to kick. How did I do that before?

I will try this out this morning on the lake. Report later.
Best regards all.

[Zenturtle]

Not sure how you were taught back, but most good swim coaches are going to have you learn how to nail body position and kick b/f they add in arm action. Trying to add kick timing to the arm stroke is really tough I'm not sure I could coordinate it and swim backstroke that way. The more I think about it I venture to guess I'd be lost if I tried to swim back with arm action as the focus and then add in intricate kick timing. I think this is one reason so many adults find a 6 beat kick so difficult with freestyle. They build their stroke backwards with arm action first and then try to add leg action by fitting them into the stroke cycle.

This drill is so old I was doing it in the 70's and it hasn't changed one bit! If you use the kick to power rotation the shoulder and subsequent arm action will just happen and it becomes just like freestyle in that it's a recovery stroke.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TaKl8b8NYSg

There is a reason you don't see people emulating Ryosuke and his kick technique. He is a 1 in a million with total perfection of his body position and stroke timing grabbing enormous amounts of water. Quite simply he is a freak that can get away with it.

I am not taught, DIY training.
I think you are right that in pronciple its best to start swimming bottom up from a 6 bK with rotational kicks.
Since my kick is crap, but balance good I can get away with little kick.
When starting form balance and using hip and body to rotate at least the main kicks are more or less in place, because rotating the hips automatically happens with a kick supporting that movement.
THats the basic 2BK action.
I have noticed thats not optimal, certainly at lower strokerates.
On the right side, when trying to just get the continuous flutterkick going without much thought and rotating the hips at the same time, the kicks starts to fall in place sometimes.
Its a matter of locking the continous flutterkick rhytm to the 2BK anchor kicks.
It seems at the right side its going to a 6BK. At the left there is still one or 2 kicks missing from a full 6BK.
(The flutterkick has a tendency to stop at the left side when I focus on the anchor kicks)
Sometimes the kick keeps on ticking for a few armstrokes and that is great.
The machine really needs the 6BK to get a nice rhythm it seems.
With very good balance and tight body 2BK is OK ish, but 6BK feels much smoother.
At very high strokerates 2BK could get better, just like in freestyle, but thats no option right now. Taking about 18-20 strokes/25m .
Feeling of traction on the water starts to get better and better.
Start to let the arm slip a bit at the very start of the stroke when getting tired instead of locking the water in right there to not have to haul the body past it because its quite hard on the core to really power through the stroke while keeping the body straigh with minimal fishtailing.
When this sloppiness gets too big its time to take a rest.
Getting/keeping backstroke straight and tight is an insane core workout.

[Zenturtle]

I did a few lenghts with a consistent 6bk but with a slight stutter in the arm stroke.
Concentrating on the kick makes the arms go jerky and concentrating on the leg-hip+armpush/entry makes the legs stutter.
The funny thing is that from the outside I can make it look like a normal stroke with 6Bk if I keep the arm cycling in a relaxed automatic way with little pressure on the arms, without a good leg-hip+armpush/entry drive in the stroke.
So even if it stroke looks superficually sound, it still can lack that powerfull diagional twist through the core.

Thats a thing that can be seen a lot in the pool.
Roughly a good timing between arms and legs, but no real driving connection between them.

It also seems to indicate that the hip-shoulder connection is the most important one.
This can be supported or initiated by the endpush of the stroke combined with the recovery swing on the other side, together with some hipswimg uncomsciously supported with the leg, and/or with a consious legkick followed by regular inbetween kicks to arrive at the next major kick at the right time.
Working on the and instead of the or.