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Old 08-30-2018
Danny Danny is offline
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Join Date: Oct 2009
Posts: 1,442

Originally Posted by Zenturtle View Post
I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch

do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?

The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow

I think I know what you mean by that feeling. I remember going from a more catchup stroke to trying to putting more weight on the low side arm before the high arm entered the water.This was indeed hard to do without dropping the elbow. Surprisingly difficult in fact, even if i wanted to just get that arm just a little bit down and in shape before the other arm landed.
This was because the arm wasnt in the right setup to start with anyway.
It was extended, but not with a stable shoulder on top of it and already with a bit of a dropped elbow, but that wasnt not noticable in the weightless extension.
When putting pressure on this arm its bound to collapse into a dropped elbow,
and desperately bending the wrist to hold some pressure on the hand for gods sake.

The setup starts already with the recovery in fact.
Elbow lead recovery which is discussed so often helps, but also bringing the whole shoulder forward almost over the ears mentally, while rotating the elbow up into the extension. And extending more with that shoulder than stretching the arm.
That arm is best kept slightly bend in a slight clawing posture right into the inward rotated shoulder,lifted up and forward touching the jawline, with stretched out lat muscles and other muscle ties that want to pull that shoulder back into its normal place.
Now its possible to load that low side wing, releasing the shoulders lifting muscles and loading the muscles from shoulder to ribcage in a semi static manner. Just let the forearm sink a bit to start the downsweep, and let the muscles from shoulder to ribcage do the first work in the pull, taking that whole static paddle along.

You can already practice this procedure and the relative armtiming in front of a mirror.
In my case it was exactly this timing that was more difficult than pure catchup or pure windmilling.
It needs some time to get used to it, and also requires special shoulder flexibility and local strenght to make it feel natural, which it isnt offcourse.

Still working on it everytime in the pool, veeerrrry slooooowly going better and better
ZT, to answer your question
" do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?"
Yes, that is what I mean.

Concerning how to get the forward arm down earlier, like Terry does, I have been doing some experiments in the water and in front of a mirror. The main problem is that we are not anatomically set up to keep our elbow up if our arm is extended too close to the plane of our shoulders (outside the scapular plane). However, if you look at Terry's arm motion when his hand is moving downward, before the up side hand enters the water, it seems to me that his arm is straight, not bent at all. In fact, there are no anatomical constraints to moving your hand down early as long as you keep that arm straight while doing so. This may be the secret to Terry's catch: he keeps his arm straight as his hand moves down. I don't think you want to put too much weight on the arm in this position, because that may impact the shoulder, but by the time he goes into a catch his hand is close to under his shoulder and this may enable him to anchor better in his catch. Not sure of this, still experimenting, but it is interesting to play with these things.
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