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-   -   Freestyle love/hate relationship (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9236)

liolio 07-21-2017 12:57 PM

Freestyle love/hate relationship
 
Hi everybody,
Short presentation, I've started swimming around a year ago. I did for two reasons first and foremost I discovered (late 40 at the time) that I liked it and because my health was calling for it (poor shape with some health issues). When I started I was out of shape and over-weighted (1.78m 90kg now 76kg). I swim alone , so no external feedback :(

During that period I work on all four (/five) strokes, sort of I would add. I started with a strong focus on breaststroke and dolphin kick&whole body dolphin. I tried to focus on freestyle later through the year and even later I introduced backstroke.
I'm comfortable with breaststroke. Butterfly is a work in progress, still "butter-struggle" but I sense it is coming together, slowly extremely slowly... Even though I came to it last and contrary to my early impression, I like backstroke a lot.

Then there is front crawling/freestyle. I've a love/hate relation with it. I can perceived the beauty of it but I still fail to fall for it. I fail to invest much swimming time into it.
At the core of the issue is breathing. The breathing pattern seems to have an impact of the technique. A part comes from my technique but I suspect another part is "built" into the stroke. When I'm using a FQS (/catch-up?) approach my breathing is not good, I'm ok on the right side but bad on the left. When I'm using a more "kayak" type of approach to the stroke breathing works a lot better and on both sides.
The kayak approach increases slightly my stroke rate which gets me to my real issue with front crawl (at least for now): the breathing pattern.
Using KayaK style I can try to breath every three strokes but truth be told I still want to breath every two strokes. As I start breathing every two strokes I tend to drift from the kayak approach into FQS which I think I'm less comfortable with (contrary to early feels), the stroke feels less connected, and the stroke gets "asymmetrical".

From what I see in competition more and more swimmers swim every 2 strokes and as such they develop an asymmetrical stroke asymmetric arm movements as well as kicking).
Many people says that breathing should be decoupled from stroke somehow and that one should be able to breath every 2, 3, 4 etc strokes as if breathing had no impact on the stroke fundamentals, it does or at least it seems to me at my early stage of learning.
Whether you are a competitive swimmer or not it seems that most people wants/needs to breath every two strokes /as much as possible at any level of exertion. Most of the modern day swimmers seems to have to various extend built that constrain into their stroke.
Modern competitive freestyle is no longer a symmetrical stroke but that should not bother me at my level of practice, what bothers me is that I feel like something is not OK when I try to deal with the stroke as symmetrical one while breathing every two strokes.

I swim for pleasure and leisure but I also want to do my back some good as well as correcting a really bad posture and associated issues if the stroke is not symmetrical it means that one has two practices both sides in equal quantity to prevent possible health issue. When it comes to "feeling" whereas in "kayak-ish" the stroke feels "good" (it still may never be my favorite stroke, anyway...) with a breath every 3 strokes, I fail to enjoy and really get into any front crawl while breathing every 2 strokes.

I'm not sure what to think or which approach to follow both practically and somehow aesthetically. I watched some race between Laure Manadou and Kate Spiegler yesterday, I "understand" the logic and the aesthetic of their technique: kayak-ish, 2KB, breath every 3 strokes (for most part).
Now I think Ledecky is onto something with her completely asymmetric stroke, Sun Yang's stroke is asymmetric but it does not look as "well though out" as Ledecky take on the stroke. Ledecky seems to have built its stroke on the necessary asymmetry introduced by the breath every 2 strokes pattern. I suspect from there she also takes more advantage of her stronger arm and "jumping" leg whereas in a symmetrical approach to the stroke you want to balance things out. Like other non symmetrical sports it might for specific training to maintain the body "balanced".

So to sum-up it up I fail to get comfortable with the stroke as I lean toward a breath every two strokes and I feel like I'm trying to make symmetrical something that is not and can't really be (I'm not kicking symmetrically, I'm not sure what I do). As I do I feel like I do not "wear/work" my body in symmetrical manner. Whenever I try to breath on my bad side I feel like playing football mostly with my left foot or play tennis with my left arm but at a "whole body level"... lol
I'm not happy with the aesthetic of the stroke either or more precisely the way I "understand it". My gut feeling is that Ledecky approach will impose itself as the gold standard and that as sidestroke front crawling will become an asymmetrical stroke and thought-out as well as analyzed as such. As for now I don't know if her approach (/technology) to the stroke have been formalized, at least in public manner.
End result whether my understanding is correct or not, I fail to take pleasure in it :(

dshen 07-21-2017 01:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 63211)
Hi everybody,
Short presentation, I've started swimming around a year ago. I did for two reasons first and foremost I discovered (late 40 at the time) that I liked it and because my health was calling for it (poor shape with some health issues). When I started I was out of shape and over-weighted (1.78m 90kg now 76kg). I swim alone , so no external feedback :(

Great! We of course all love swimming over here as a fitness activity!

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 63211)
During that period I work on all four (/five) strokes, sort of I would add. I started with a strong focus on breaststroke and dolphin kick&whole body dolphin. I tried to focus on freestyle later through the year and even later I introduced backstroke.
I'm comfortable with breaststroke. Butterfly is a work in progress, still "butter-struggle" but I sense it is coming together, slowly extremely slowly... Even though I came to it last and contrary to my early impression, I like backstroke a lot.

Lots of value in learning the other 4 strokes. They can be easier to learn IMHO than freestyle.

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 63211)
Then there is front crawling/freestyle. I've a love/hate relation with it. I can perceived the beauty of it but I still fail to fall for it. I fail to invest much swimming time into it.
At the core of the issue is breathing. The breathing pattern seems to have an impact of the technique. A part comes from my technique but I suspect another part is "built" into the stroke. When I'm using a FQS (/catch-up?) approach my breathing is not good, I'm ok on the right side but bad on the left. When I'm using a more "kayak" type of approach to the stroke breathing works a lot better and on both sides.
The kayak approach increases slightly my stroke rate which gets me to my real issue with front crawl (at least for now): the breathing pattern.
Using KayaK style I can try to breath every three strokes but truth be told I still want to breath every two strokes. As I start breathing every two strokes I tend to drift from the kayak approach into FQS which I think I'm less comfortable with (contrary to early feels), the stroke feels less connected, and the stroke gets "asymmetrical".

From what I see in competition more and more swimmers swim every 2 strokes and as such they develop an asymmetrical stroke asymmetric arm movements as well as kicking).
Many people says that breathing should be decoupled from stroke somehow and that one should be able to breath every 2, 3, 4 etc strokes as if breathing had no impact on the stroke fundamentals, it does or at least it seems to me at my early stage of learning.
Whether you are a competitive swimmer or not it seems that most people wants/needs to breath every two strokes /as much as possible at any level of exertion. Most of the modern day swimmers seems to have to various extend built that constrain into their stroke.
Modern competitive freestyle is no longer a symmetrical stroke but that should not bother me at my level of practice, what bothers me is that I feel like something is not OK when I try to deal with the stroke as symmetrical one while breathing every two strokes.

I swim for pleasure and leisure but I also want to do my back some good as well as correcting a really bad posture and associated issues if the stroke is not symmetrical it means that one has two practices both sides in equal quantity to prevent possible health issue. When it comes to "feeling" whereas in "kayak-ish" the stroke feels "good" (it still may never be my favorite stroke, anyway...) with a breath every 3 strokes, I fail to enjoy and really get into any front crawl while breathing every 2 strokes.

I'm not sure what to think or which approach to follow both practically and somehow aesthetically. I watched some race between Laure Manadou and Kate Spiegler yesterday, I "understand" the logic and the aesthetic of their technique: kayak-ish, 2KB, breath every 3 strokes (for most part).
Now I think Ledecky is onto something with her completely asymmetric stroke, Sun Yang's stroke is asymmetric but it does not look as "well though out" as Ledecky take on the stroke. Ledecky seems to have built its stroke on the necessary asymmetry introduced by the breath every 2 strokes pattern. I suspect from there she also takes more advantage of her stronger arm and "jumping" leg whereas in a symmetrical approach to the stroke you want to balance things out. Like other non symmetrical sports it might for specific training to maintain the body "balanced".

So to sum-up it up I fail to get comfortable with the stroke as I lean toward a breath every two strokes and I feel like I'm trying to make symmetrical something that is not and can't really be (I'm not kicking symmetrically, I'm not sure what I do). As I do I feel like I do not "wear/work" my body in symmetrical manner. Whenever I try to breath on my bad side I feel like playing football mostly with my left foot or play tennis with my left arm but at a "whole body level"... lol
I'm not happy with the aesthetic of the stroke either or more precisely the way I "understand it". My gut feeling is that Ledecky approach will impose itself as the gold standard and that as sidestroke front crawling will become an asymmetrical stroke and thought-out as well as analyzed as such. As for now I don't know if her approach (/technology) to the stroke have been formalized, at least in public manner.
End result whether my understanding is correct or not, I fail to take pleasure in it :(

If I may comment like this - I would not follow what elites are doing in swimming as a template for your learning. Elites often have deficiencies in classic swim form - that doesn't mean they aren't super fast, but it does mean that even their swimming could improve from their already fast state, or perhaps it doesn't matter as whatever they are doing works for them.

We can all sit back and analyze Olympic swimmer videos and try to find their secrets, but ultimately we have to forge our own path with our own physical gifts and strengths (and also weaknesses).

Breathing is often an issue with swimmers; what a pain to need to take a breath in the middle of what was nice stroking and now interrupted! I would encourage you to make sure your basics are down in the areas of balance, streamlining, and propulsion first without taking a breath (standing up of course when you need to take one), and then work on breathing. There are sections on breathing in our Ultra Efficient Freestyle ebook and in Freestyle Mastery ebook. I would encourage you to give those a try and see if they help.

liolio 07-21-2017 02:03 PM

First thanks for your answer :)
Quote:

Originally Posted by dshen (Post 63212)
Lots of value in learning the other 4 strokes. They can be easier to learn IMHO than freestyle.

I actually think the same :) It is just a lot more forgiving than say butterfly.
Quote:

If I may comment like this - I would not follow what elites are doing in swimming as a template for your learning. Elites often have deficiencies in classic swim form - that doesn't mean they aren't super fast, but it does mean that even their swimming could improve from their already fast state, or perhaps it doesn't matter as whatever they are doing works for them.
I agree that they have their style, I'm not sure we can call that deficiency, and that it is not necessarily the best example for beginner, though it can be practical to point at known athlete that impersonate a given style pretty well. The Manaudou/Spiegler generation of athletes were swimming a more "classic/canon" type of freestyle than the athletes that came after and beat their performances.

Quote:

Breathing is often an issue with swimmers; what a pain to need to take a breath in the middle of what was nice stroking and now interrupted! I would encourage you to make sure your basics are down in the areas of balance, streamlining, and propulsion first without taking a breath (standing up of course when you need to take one), and then work on breathing. There are sections on breathing in our Ultra Efficient Freestyle ebook and in Freestyle Mastery ebook. I would encourage you to give those a try and see if they help.
Thanks for the recommendation. I will indeed do drills but there is something weird while "kayaking" breathing on both sides comes easy, it is like it "makes sense" within the logic of the stroke with a breath every three strokes pattern.

Now I wonder wonder if freestyle is a symmetric stroke, after some research it seems that I'm not alone in fact though it does not seem as if the "last word" on the matter is out already. I may come back to your first answer, indeed Freestyle is more complicated than others strokes, so much parameters to fine tune and work around. I get interesting when compared to backstroke why are there so many approaches in freestyle from casual to competitive athletes while backstroke is more of a known quantity.
I believe the answer is breathing and the pattern at which it needs to occurs for most people (casuals and athletes). From people at the pool to athletes and on most distances (short sprint aside) almost every body breathes once every two strokes. A consequence is that people tends to strongly favor swimming on one side and doing so their techniques and movement definitely adapt. We know from elites swimmers that that asymmetric approach to the stroke is faster (and most likely more efficient) on any distance but short sprints during which breathing has a lesser impact.

Speaking for myself, I favor the symmetry from an aesthetic pov but also wrt to health/training as asymmetric workloads comes with their load of issues but I feel like I'm not breathing enough. On the biomechanical level we have a strong arm and a weak one (that does some things better nonetheless), a kicking leg and a jumping one. It is a fundamental issue, breathing comes first in the long run, may be freestyle is a different animal than the others strokes, like a galloping horse, whereas "classic" front crawl is in fact some form of ventral backstroke lol :)
May be the breathing pattern set us up to us the best of the distinct abilities of ours four limbs?

CoachStuartMcDougal 07-21-2017 03:29 PM

Hi liolio,

Only swimming a short time time, you have certainly developed a ton of awareness - nice!

Re: Kayak/windmill easier to breathe. Just to add to Coach Dave's excellent reply. Often swimmers will find air easier with windmilling arms since those arm movements are stabilizing your vessel, in other words the pulling arms are seeking stability. These are really instinctive movements that are primal human, not a cognitive choice. Instead, learn to balance without using/moving hands (and feet) and position body to remain balanced with hips and legs light. I suspect in your front quadrant timing, holding lead arm patiently in front your recovery arm/hand is stopping at the hip at exit too - this is a common problem. This "hitch at hip" causes the hips to sink (i.e. arm weight stalled behind the lungs) and thus difficult to breathe. When holding lead arm in front, keep the recovery moving continuously, swing recovery arm away from the body to maintain balance - don't hitch at hip lifting elbow early above the back/spine.

Keep up the good work!

Stuart

liolio 07-21-2017 06:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 63215)
Hi liolio,

Only swimming a short time time, you have certainly developed a ton of awareness - nice!

thanks for the kind words, I'm going through a complicated time in my life swimming... keeps me afloat... lol
I invest quite some time into it (either swimming or thinking) along with a change in lifestyle for the best :)
Quote:

Re: Kayak/windmill easier to breathe. Just to add to Coach Dave's excellent reply. Often swimmers will find air easier with windmilling arms since those arm movements are stabilizing your vessel, in other words the pulling arms are seeking stability. These are really instinctive movements that are primal human, not a cognitive choice. Instead, learn to balance without using/moving hands (and feet) and position body to remain balanced with hips and legs light. I suspect in your front quadrant timing, holding lead arm patiently in front your recovery arm/hand is stopping at the hip at exit too - this is a common problem. This "hitch at hip" causes the hips to sink (i.e. arm weight stalled behind the lungs) and thus difficult to breathe. When holding lead arm in front, keep the recovery moving continuously, swing recovery arm away from the body to maintain balance - don't hitch at hip lifting elbow early above the back/spine.

Keep up the good work!

Stuart
Thanks a lot for your answer :) I suspect you might be right I will try to be more aware of that area of the stroke as soon as I'm back to the pool.
Other than that as the pool is a lot less crowed lately I should time myself in all the strokes on 200m (x4 50m) as I've simply no idea about my current speed.
I will keep the topic updated, thanks again for the insights :)

tomoy 07-22-2017 10:18 PM

Hi Liolio -

I can relate your breathing symmetry vs need for air every 2 strokes. About a year or two into my re-learning to swim freestyle as an adult, I FORCED myself to breathe on my weak side because I thought that symmetry would look better, even out my stroke, improve my posture in the water and overall make me a better swimmer.

It did all that. It was ugly, uncomfortable and super-un-natural for a few months, but eventually it clicked into place. I forced myself to breathe at least 100Y per session on my weak side, then on every 3rd stroke, and then it clicked. Most importantly, I learned that pursuing improvement required discomfort and that un-natural feeling. People swimming in water is not natural. Learning to breathe on my weak side was a huge confidence builder. Breathing bilaterally every 3rd stroke improved my stroke in many ways... but I wanted to swim faster.

I suspect that breathing on 2's feeds the bulk of the swimming population the right amount of oxygen for the performance required of an athlete to maintain a good workout in the aerobic zone.

Terry (TI founder) usually answers this question like this: that for any given distance he will strive to take the same number of breaths on each side. But he does NOT say he always breathes on 3's. This implies taking a number of strokes breathing on 2's on one side, then switching to breathing on 2's on the other side.

Practicing in outdoor pools in California, I tend to breathe away from the sun going down the pool, and coming back, I breathe on the other side to keep looking away from the sun.

After my cardiologist gave me a clean bill of health last year, I started to push my speeds even faster. Breathing on 2's allows me to go faster than bilateral breathing (3's). If running out of breath is the problem (the kind that would be solved if you could sit on the wall for 15 seconds) then getting more air is the answer.

Now, I swim longer distances breathing on 2's and when I start running out of air, I can take a couple breaths in a row (breathing on 1's, on one side and immediately on the next). That allows me to keep up a near-sprint pace for longer and dig into the anaerobic zone.

It may seem like all the cool kids are breathing on 2's but that's a choice forced by fuel requirements. If you really want to argue that symmetry is irrelevant, look at the 50m sprinters. No fair removing them from the examples. Not one is breathing on 2's and they are REALLY symmetrical.

liolio 07-23-2017 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tomoy (Post 63219)
Hi Liolio -

I can relate your breathing symmetry vs need for air every 2 strokes. About a year or two into my re-learning to swim freestyle as an adult, I FORCED myself to breathe on my weak side because I thought that symmetry would look better, even out my stroke, improve my posture in the water and overall make me a better swimmer.

It did all that. It was ugly, uncomfortable and super-un-natural for a few months, but eventually it clicked into place. I forced myself to breathe at least 100Y per session on my weak side, then on every 3rd stroke, and then it clicked. Most importantly, I learned that pursuing improvement required discomfort and that un-natural feeling. People swimming in water is not natural. Learning to breathe on my weak side was a huge confidence builder. Breathing bilaterally every 3rd stroke improved my stroke in many ways... but I wanted to swim faster.

Thanks for sharing your experience it helps with the motivation. I think I will follow your (and the coachs) advice. I went to the pool and at low level of exertion with me paying attention to relaxation I realize that I could breath may be even less like every four. It is just a matter of sticking to it against bad habits I developed.
Quote:

I suspect that breathing on 2's feeds the bulk of the swimming population the right amount of oxygen for the performance required of an athlete to maintain a good workout in the aerobic zone.

Terry (TI founder) usually answers this question like this: that for any given distance he will strive to take the same number of breaths on each side. But he does NOT say he always breathes on 3's. This implies taking a number of strokes breathing on 2's on one side, then switching to breathing on 2's on the other side.

Practicing in outdoor pools in California, I tend to breathe away from the sun going down the pool, and coming back, I breathe on the other side to keep looking away from the sun.

After my cardiologist gave me a clean bill of health last year, I started to push my speeds even faster. Breathing on 2's allows me to go faster than bilateral breathing (3's). If running out of breath is the problem (the kind that would be solved if you could sit on the wall for 15 seconds) then getting more air is the answer.
Hope your health is still good :)
Quote:

Now, I swim longer distances breathing on 2's and when I start running out of air, I can take a couple breaths in a row (breathing on 1's, on one side and immediately on the next). That allows me to keep up a near-sprint pace for longer and dig into the anaerobic zone.

It may seem like all the cool kids are breathing on 2's but that's a choice forced by fuel requirements. If you really want to argue that symmetry is irrelevant, look at the 50m sprinters. No fair removing them from the examples. Not one is breathing on 2's and they are REALLY symmetrical.
Indeed it is like unifying the force in physic at lesser energy level the "one" force split into multiple forces, in swimming breath can bends the stroke though I get the point you and the coach have been explaining me, whether the athletes moves to a galloping/asymmetric type of stroke while racing they are symmetric at lower level of exertion, they have complete control of what they are doing. Thanks for you input it was appreciated.

I paid more attention to my recovery today, indeed Coach Stuart Mc Dougall was right, I used to stall my hand around the hips (or slowed it too much) instead of getting the recovery going. I had an effect on my rotation.

I also discovered something else my right catch is more "evf" than the other "thanks" (I actually wants to stiffen/ strengthen it) to a shoulder blade than is a little to lose. Along with the hindered rotation,it has me doing a weird outsweep which does not happen on my left side. It also prevent my shoulder right torso side to "engage" (I mean go down a little putting pressure on the water) which happen without me really paying attention to it on my left side: it also impact rotation.
I use to think that my left side was the bad one, actually it is not whereas I feel a lot more strength on the right it further throw my stroke out of balance...

Hell freestyle is complicated, so many things to work and keep in mind. I'm in for a lot of work :)

liolio 07-24-2017 04:23 PM

Coach Stuart's blind assessment of my stroke was correct, the advises Dshen gave me was also good ones.
I was stalling sometime stalling my recovery at exit. My balance is also to be work on along with pretty much everything actually:

My kicks actually generate/start the rotation and one is weaker than the other one (/bad knee). I may try a 4 kick per beat pattern to see if it fit me. I tried to work in symmetry today 2KB and a breath every three strokes but it breaks often. I think when it does breaks or I try to push myself a little further I wonder if the pattern could actually work to my strength and also weaknesses instead of having the stroke breaking in not controlled manner as I inadvertently found myself breathing only to the right again and every two strokes.

As I work on the extension forward with my right arm, my body does not rotate as much as on the right side so I "swim less downward" as you would say (or put less chest pressure) on that side. I think it is the reason why my breathing on the left is bad: my center of gravity and of buoyancy are not in the same positions as when I breath on the right side.
My right shoulder blade is too lose (old injury I did not take care well enough) so it is more flexible (in a bad way) I can get more extension without rotating (than with my left arm), I can get into an "earlier" EVF than with my left arm. As I said yesterday it furthers throw my stroke out of balance ND I also realize today that as the shoulder is slightly further away from my core (/loose) I can't translate all the strength from the rotating core and its large muscles. Good news I can do a correct move but it requires a lot of awareness. I think I should see a physician therapist or osteopath and also do airborne exercises to make that shoulder more stable.

Those two reasons together explains why I'm more balanced and breathe better (both sides) while kayaking: shoulder driven rotation and stroke overall partly hide my lack of control and deficiencies in other areas.

Overall an interesting day at the pool today. I worked at slow pace and I think I increased my awareness of the issue with my stroke and my body as well. It is still a little frustrating to rework things I thought were improving (AND work at lesser speed) but I realize that (slow) front craw training can be turn into physical therapy as I grow more aware about myself.
I can do breaststroke to but I will have to have high awareness during the outsweep.

As much as I want to learn butterfly, I think I will have to stall my efforts at the moments, it is simply too easy to inadvertently try to force through the stroke and even on short distance I think it might hinder the efforts I have to do to stabilize my shoulder blade and matching muscles => I'm going to work whole body dolphin and dolphin kick and so "cobra" type of breaststroke in the mean time.

Danny 07-27-2017 07:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 63238)
As much as I want to learn butterfly, I think I will have to stall my efforts at the moments, it is simply too easy to inadvertently try to force through the stroke and even on short distance I think it might hinder the efforts I have to do to stabilize my shoulder blade and matching muscles => I'm going to work whole body dolphin and dolphin kick and so "cobra" type of breaststroke in the mean time.

I think you are right that one of the difficult things to learn in butterfly is to use your whole body in unison with your arms, as opposed to relying too much just on your arm stroke. But, if you have enough time in the pool, I think playing around with butterfly can be a lot of fun and it may even help your freestyle. If you are worried about stabilizing your shoulder blades, I would suggest the following dry land exercises, called I,Y,T, and W
https://experiencelife.com/article/balance-your-blades/
I learned these in physical therapy when I reached the point where the butterfly recovery was hurting my right shoulder due to an old injury. I now do them on both shoulders and I have no problems with the butterfly recovery.

I think that there are two different approaches to learning to breath easily in freestyle. The first is to learn to balance your head over an extended shoulder on your lungs. This will support your head as you rotate to breath, and you won't need to lift your head in order to do so. One drill that helps to learn this is rolling to breath while skating. The second approach is to incorporate a very small amount of body dolphin into your freestyle. By timing your breathing with the undulation of your body dolphin, the breathing becomes much easier. One way to learn this technique is to do one-armed freestyle with the other arm extended at your hip.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UJ5eLHlSMq4
Both of these approaches can be used together to varying extents, depending on your body density and swimming style. The asymmetric loping style of many elite swimmers uses this type of body dolphin, which can also be used to enhance the propulsion of your arm stroke.

But all of these different techniques take time to learn. Just like swimming different strokes, it can be fun and useful to learn both of the above techniques. Lots of stuff to play around with, but these can be challenging exercises. Don't expect immediate success with them. If you get frustrated, go on to other things and come back to them every once in a while just to see how you are doing. As your technique progresses, you will notice it in your ability to do these drills.

Good luck!

Zenturtle 07-27-2017 09:14 PM

Agree with Danny. I also go around in these circles and after a while these drills become more natural and easy.


Slump” in the May 2007 archives), inhibits the ability of the scapula to tilt backward and create space for the rotator cuff in the shoulder joint when the arm is lifted overhead. As a result, the rotator cuff gets pinched, causing tissue damage.


This is the reason I dont have shoulder problems anymore, described also in the thread `a different approach to preventing shoulder injury.`
exactly like in that sentence, Lifting the shoulder away from the ribcage seemed to make space around the joint to let it move more freely without pinching problems.
When the shoulder is lifted the whole high elbow style can be used with less risks for impingement, but dont start to pull hard before the paddle is set in the proper position.

liolio 08-06-2017 10:44 AM

Thank you 2 (Zenturtle and Danny) for the advice.
I read further thing on the matter as well as watching vids from various physical therapists.
I've yet to stick to a given routine which is a bad thing... but I try to stretch and exercise in different manners.
My shoulder are more externally rotated now (back to a more neutral proper position) I also work my forearms and wrists so I can rotate externally my shoulder while rotating internally the forearm. It is obvious but as the shoulders are not properly positioned the forearm in turn as to adapt. I suspect lots of elbows and wrists (from muscles, to nerves) are aggravated by the shoulders positions.
I try to reduce some light scapular winging.
Overall I'm discovering a lot about me and others doing so. The more I dig for myself the more issue I see with others and I'm not speaking about swimming techniques. Quite some of people have I suspect slight "lateralization" issues among other things. Clearly waters shift perceptions but it is also showcased natural bias (/psycho-motor miss wiring ). It is funny to notice that people with various sport background (by their silhouettes) are equally affected. That tells me that healthcare is not doing its job, especially in our early years as ALL those issues are quite easily fixed through proper exercises (and simple ones). Educational systems seems to fail to integrate those very basics functions of exercising and gym. It is sad because under development in motor skills affect intellect as well as emotional development: lots of potential is wasted hidden within people that are functional (or more) nonetheless.

Among the discovering my "good" shoulder is actually "worse" than my bad one, more internally rotated, less scapular mobility and overall whereas more "solid" (no injury, stable) it behave in a less functional manner. So of late my swim session have turned more into physical therapy.
I do few front crawl when I do I focus on extension and reach working on proper shoulder alignment and position and well as putting the scapular in "pro-traction" (if I get the wording right).
I do the same with breaststroke as I realize that my out-sweep is awfully asymmetric (my shoulder are not rotated the same way), I simply push both arms forward (more like a butterfly arm entry position) and then the in-sweep. Same thing as above.
Lots of backstroke: I focus on arm alignment and keeping both shoulder properly during the underwater portion of the movement. The hand/arm entry is doing me a lot of good as it put my shoulder to work in a nice way and force me to also work on the thoracic flexibility as the arm sink into the water and the torso rotate.

I practice butterfly stealthily a couple moves here and there at the beginning of the length focus on quality work. I spend lot of time working dolphin kick and undulation. I think I've improve slightly lately, I leverage my buoyancy in a more and more relaxed manner. I start to ease into it.

I pass on timing myself as it would create incentive for me to go faster than I should at the moment.

Danny 08-06-2017 09:07 PM

Hi liolio,

When I read what you wrote, I try to form a picture of all the things that are wrong with your anatomy, and the picture I come up with sounds very serious. But I suspect that you may be exaggerating the importance of some of your anatomical imperfections. As you noted, almost all of us have them. I have an old shoulder injury which prohibits me from executing the same motions on the left and right side, and almost everyone has something like this. But in spite of these asymmetries, we can all learn how to swim well and it isn't necessary to correct all of these problems in order to do it. In the case of my bad shoulder, I have simply learned to spear differently on that side and still manage to do quite well. There is an old saying "don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good." I will never get my bad shoulder to have the same motion as my good shoulder, but I have discovered I don't need to.

ZT occasionally posts video from paralympic swimmers with problems far more serious than mine, and it is always fascinating to see how they have been able to deal with their issues. A lot of them are truly beautiful to watch.

Good luck!

liolio 08-07-2017 09:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 63298)
Hi liolio,

When I read what you wrote, I try to form a picture of all the things that are wrong with your anatomy, and the picture I come up with sounds very serious. But I suspect that you may be exaggerating the importance of some of your anatomical imperfections

Well it is nothing "serious" though the discomfort and pain (nerves) in the left arm and sometime neck can really get the best of me on bad days. The goods news is that I think it is improving.
The others parts are no where near as serious, it should fix itself with good practice, I see benefits after a couple training sessions.
I used to think that my old injury on the right shoulder was not fixable (for the ref I tore some tissues doing/failing to do a one arm lock-offs a decade ago and did not deal with the injury in an appropriate way), "never" using my left one along with bad posture got the left one rusty. I think now that I can improve my right shoulder and that I've to solicit my left one the right way (along with stretch, etc.). As you are saying below nothing important or serious, it is just that through swimming as well and upper back/left arm nerves pain my awareness of my body is significantly sharper. As things seem to want to improve I try to see this as a positive.

Quote:

As you noted, almost all of us have them. I have an old shoulder injury which prohibits me from executing the same motions on the left and right side, and almost everyone has something like this. But in spite of these asymmetries, we can all learn how to swim well and it isn't necessary to correct all of these problems in order to do it. In the case of my bad shoulder, I have simply learned to spear differently on that side and still manage to do quite well. There is an old saying "don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good." I will never get my bad shoulder to have the same motion as my good shoulder, but I have discovered I don't need to.
I'm so far from perfect that it is not even funny ;) Now I'm ok with imperfections and asymmetrical movements but I want to make movements that are as safe as can be and that do not further my bio-mechanical imbalance. Self assessment has its lacking (vs proper supervision) but that is an damned interesting journey :)
Quote:

ZT occasionally posts video from paralympic swimmers with problems far more serious than mine, and it is always fascinating to see how they have been able to deal with their issues. A lot of them are truly beautiful to watch.

Good luck!
Indeed those guys (and girls) are impressive, there are a couple swimmers at my pool pulling some nice tricks with really serious conditions (not like me) like missing limbs or lower limbs paralysis.

As for an update on the freestyle/front crawl, working/focusing on extension has nice benefit, it makes my stroke more symmetrical, especially the rotation. Breathing on the left side is now easier, not as "natural" as the right side but there is significant change.
Not stalling the arm at the hips (or slowing) the recovery in turn do not hinder my rotation, along with more properly done extension of my right arm my position while breathing on the left is more buoyant.
I still can consistently breath every 3 strokes but I breath to the left more often than I used to.

Thanks for the cheering :)

novaswimmer 08-07-2017 01:24 PM

'....I fail to invest much swimming time into it....'

It's going to take some time and investment to develop and feel comfortable with freestyle. I have been working on it for three years and am just getting to the point where it's becoming easier. Some take to it much sooner than me! I tend to 'float' rather low in the water and so it never came as quickly for me as others.

At the core of the issue is breathing.

The core issue is usually balance, streamlining, and propulsion first. That was mentioned by someone else. But then, yes, once you introduce breathing -- I actually like to call it air regulation -- into the mix, everything seems to 'go south' and you have to relearn balance and streamlining in light of breathing. You'll have to reach the point where you are confident in your ability to obtain air when you need it, otherwise your body goes into panic mode and your stroke falls apart or you have to stand up -- or switch to another stroke.

You mention you are comfortable in breast stroke. Might that be partly because you are able to get your breath easily?

I'm ok on the right side but bad on the left

It is typical to be able to breathe more easily on one side than the other. You are not alone. It took me about a year before I could breathe comfortably on my uneasy side. Throughout the process, I got lots of water in my mouth, nose, sinuses with resultant sinus irritation. Not easy and not comfortable. But I pushed through it. Now I swim one lap breathing on my left and the return lap breathing to my right -- so I breathe generally every other stroke once I get in a 'groove'. But that's just what works best for my lung capacity and exertion level.

I swim for pleasure and leisure

So, I think the TI program is ideal for you then. I would probably not dwell too much on the technique of the elite swimmers -- as was noted by someone else above. Personally, I wanted to be able to swim for at least a half hour without stopping. I was not trying to set any speed records. Just general and aerobic exercise. I had to slow way down to meet my goals. It took a while to get 'swim fit'. It took a while for me to figure out how much to slow down my stroke in order to balance out my exertion levevl with my air intake and regulation (my oxygen consumption with my oxygen intake/CO2 elimination). Once I did that, then I could slowly increase my pace (although that's not a main goal of mine at this point -- not trying to win any races).

If you could somehow post a video, the experts here will probably see things right away that they can help you with.

liolio 08-19-2017 07:48 AM

I'm a little late to answer as I'm currently in the process of moving, the answer may be a short too.

Thanks Novaswimmer for your time and advice ;)

I've made progress, I more comfortably breath on both sides now, not perfect but much better. I also stick to one breath every three strokes more consistently. To be fair I still don't swim front crawl that much as I invest a lot of time and efforts in backstroke.
The later does good job at having me more properly aware of my body positioning. The arm movement is actually getting rid of rounded shoulders while making my left shoulder and arm work in a proper way. As a massive bonus it improves my freestyle too.

Back to freestyle the main issue I think is/was a not proper extension (in different manner) both right and left. With more focus on extension I push somehow on the water which makes me more buoyant. I also have more symmetrical catch/pull/push.

The recovery was also an issue, I still have to be focus to have a more active (yet relaxed) recovery). I changed my recovery so it is a lot easier on my joints and less tiring, my arm no longer feels like turning around my torso/shoulders, I lift them sideways using the torso rotation as the main tool to keep the arm and hand airborne. The slight pain I had in one shoulder disappeared completely since then.

I also more consciously kick I can be in time without much effort but I used to be lazy wrt to kicking (focusing on others parts of my stroke) so kicking could be off inadvertently altering rotation...

Something I feel I made a breakthrough lately is my dolphin kick/undulation, I'm much faster now. Undulation was not too bad through I manage to put torso pressure in a more relaxed and efficient manner but I realize I actually was not flexing my knees enough. I know usually it is the opposite, anyway since I do I'm much faster.

Still practicing on issues and overall enjoying. Freestyle my main stroke but let say I work on it.

Talvi 08-23-2017 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 63258)
... If you are worried about stabilizing your shoulder blades, I would suggest the following dry land exercises, called I,Y,T, and W
https://experiencelife.com/article/balance-your-blades/
...

Hi Danny

I checked out the link but couldn't understand them :(

The Y one my palms are facing each other with my body an arms lenth above.

fwiw I've been making up my own recently that seem to help me. VERY simple:

1 Thumbs on head elbows out to sides, raise hands in air, then lower thumbs back to head. repeat x20 say then extend the movement using shouldr blades. I often find my hands then do an auto-scull at the top.

2 (requires some flexibility) stand, bend down to touch toes, relax, and raise hands behind back, then lower slowly back down. repeat x30 I use some very light weights.

Both are very gentle, yoga like, and iincrease blood flow to the area, which is the main thing I think.

Danny 08-23-2017 09:11 PM

Hi Talvi, the link I sent you above has no pictures which makes it difficult to understand. There are other links with pictures, which may be better.

There are all sorts of ways to accomplish the same thing. In my case the key issue is to keep my shoulders back (with the blades squeezing together a little) and not to slump forward. When I do this, my shoulder mobility increases significantly.

liolio 08-24-2017 09:49 AM

AthleanX (iirc), a physical therapist that is very active on youtube, has a lot of video (overall...) on the topic of shoulders (from scapular to rotators, etc.).
Lots of the exercices he provides do not require much material if at all and I find them useful (though I still lack commitment to a given selections of exercices).
I found exercises meant to fix scapular winging pretty effective for swimmers (whether or not scapular are winging).

Danny 08-24-2017 01:26 PM

I originally went to the physical therapist because I could no longer do a butterfly recovery. After 6 weeks of therapy, I was able to do it and they told me I need to keep doing these exercises. Of course, I stopped and within a month I started having problems with my shoulder again. So I started doing the exercises and the problem went away. There is nothing like this type of experience to motivate you to do these exercises.

liolio 10-03-2017 08:53 AM

Short update (I failed to post twice longer posts twice but whatever).

I still managed to jump by the pool often though my sessions are shorter.

I feel like I'm making progress. My right arm feels better, my knee has been a chore lately (it disagreed with our moves in a new apartment and the work that got done there...lol) but it seems to slowly recover.

Whereas I still swim backstroke the most I've made a significant progress in my understanding of the front crawl. Namely the recovery, more the underlying process that links the recovery, handing entry and extension together in front crawl: the rotation and more precisely the connection.
In backstroke it is easy, the arms are mostly straight, you enter at max (or slightly past) extension, there is rotation but its works with the body's logic is more obvious. In freestyle there are many things, exiting hands, moving the hands/arms forward till the front quadrant, then hand entry, into the extension. It is harder to have that to feel whole.
I found the answer for myself wrt connection as reading about it was not enough for me to get it. It is clearly how the arms/leg "stay true" to the core rotation as well matching mass transferts and impact of buoyancy.
Rotation now drive my hand entry, extension feels gliding into the catch as I "pass over" my buoyancy center. I loose the connection really easily so I try to not put "muscles" into it but I got the feel of it. Securing the execution is going to be a long process (and it is not like I don't have other things to correct and thing I have to correct I don't know I have to correct... lol) but from early feel I think the gain in efficiency should be massive.
It made me really happy when I found out the feel for myself. Freestyle still ain't my favorite stroke but I grow more and more aware of its "cleverness/beauty" meanwhile I also get use to the convenience of breathing in backstroke...

Talvi 10-22-2017 10:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 63398)
Hi Talvi, the link I sent you above has no pictures which makes it difficult to understand. There are other links with pictures, which may be better.

There are all sorts of ways to accomplish the same thing. In my case the key issue is to keep my shoulders back (with the blades squeezing together a little) and not to slump forward. When I do this, my shoulder mobility increases significantly.

Hi Danny,

A late question about this, do you mean you do this while swimming or on dry land? I don't think shoulder mobility is a problem for me generally. My shoulders are rather too loose for my age, meaning that their "clicking" is the problem rather than their stiffness.

Danny 10-22-2017 01:56 PM

Hi Talvi,

The shoulders are a very complicated joint and I am no expert. Your problems may be different from mine, so I am not sure what works for me will work for you. In my case, it was my range of motion which was limited, in part because of an old injury. Keeping my shoulders back seemed to increase my range of motion. In a recent post, someone spoke about "hollow body exercises" in gymnastics and pointed out to me that the trick was not to keep your shoulders back but rather down. I discovered that this made a big difference for me. All of this helps to improve my posture and how motion transmits between upper and lower body, but it also helps my shoulder range of motion. That's for motion out of the pool. In the pool things are more complicated because the shoulders are moving forward and backward, but I do have the feeling that having good posture in the pool also increases my shoulders' range of motion and the comfort I have moving my shoulders.

liolio 03-02-2018 09:30 AM

Short update. My technique is definitely improve, I would dare say a lot.
I still have issue with posture and my managing of proprioceptive information but I've made strides. I think I'm finding "my line" (applies to land too).

I start to enjoy freestyle actually as I only do short length it feels really fast at time. I'm a lot more comfortable breathing on both sides, as somebody posted here I think my left side is indeed cleaner. I've grown well aware about how breathing on one side alter you technique and so the strain on your body (for those that are not built as solid, tough or resilient as others...). I'm holding on doing significant distance and volume at the moment but I still feel like one breath every 3 strokes may be a little to few for me, I may want to stick with a regular pattern that includes more breathing 3/2/2/3/2/2 for example.
Still no luck with the 2 breaths out of three strokes advocated by Gary Hall Sr. May be I will find a way to make it work... one day lol

Other than that along with finding my line I got a better grip on my body rotation. Overall I swimming straighter and my rotation is more symmetrical. Though the rotation "breaks" easier than the line.

As for health well, still hurting here and there, I've to be patient, bad posture for decades took its toll as well as not properly dealt with injury. A focus at the moment is stabilizing the right shoulder, my anatomy lessons comes handy here.
I work on all four strokes, I try not to do breaststroke too much as i realize that it is really tough to resist "the bent or torsion" as large legs muscles engage.
Butterfly is improving I hope for a breakthrough soon.

CoachBobM 03-02-2018 05:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 64872)
I'm a lot more comfortable breathing on both sides, as somebody posted here I think my left side is indeed cleaner. I've grown well aware about how breathing on one side alter you technique and so the strain on your body (for those that are not built as solid, tough or resilient as others...). I'm holding on doing significant distance and volume at the moment but I still feel like one breath every 3 strokes may be a little to few for me, I may want to stick with a regular pattern that includes more breathing 3/2/2/3/2/2 for example.
Still no luck with the 2 breaths out of three strokes advocated by Gary Hall Sr. May be I will find a way to make it work... one day lol

Keep in mind that the important thing is to be breathing equal amounts of the time on both sides, not how you accomplish that. I can breathe every 3 strokes for short distances, but for longer swims, I usually breathe twice on the right, then twice on the left, and so on, and sometimes even switch to 3 breaths on the right followed by 3 breaths on the left, etc.


Bob

AnnaMarsh 03-05-2018 05:33 AM

nice post.

thaddeus.ward@gmail.com 03-05-2018 03:03 PM

I am a noob (8 months) who seems to have had a pretty easy time of it. I also totally relate to your struggles with breathing and technique. I recently had an issue where my breathing froze up over the course of a couple of sessions and I had to figure out how to unwind it. (Look for the post; "HELP all of a sudden I can't breath" in the O2 in H20 forum.)

two thoughts that might be helpful.
1) SLOW DOWN...I've found that practicing at a super slow rate and with absolutely minimal effort reveals all flaws in my balance and, because I am moving slow enough, start to address them. Going slow also revealed to me how the challenge is less about 'breathing hard' than breathing in the right cadence.

2) Balance breathing over time, not every time. As Terry put it for folks, try to have roughly equal breathing over the course of your swim. Warming up I will keep 4 breaths on 1 side before switching. Once warm I will do 3 on 1 side before switching, and occasionally flirt with just 2. If I feel my chest get tight I will spend a little more time on the same side. Additionally, I will speed up my stroke cadence when I do the switch. (switch is 3 strokes before breathing) This is something I am still working on but I like where it is headed. This brings my stroke cadence into more alignment with my breathing.

Just thoughts.

The Most Important thing is awareness and finding a way to enjoy the journey of discovery. With those two elements everything else will fall into place eventually.

whoiscathy 03-08-2018 07:36 AM

Hijack
 
I noticed (to late) that I managed to hijack OP's thread with my video. Since the topic was tangentially related so I posted too quick. I apologize. I'll post these things into a separate thread.

whoiscathy 03-08-2018 02:30 PM

My comments and the responses that were obviously for me have been moved to a new thread. (Thanks, Johnny!)

So I'm done with hijacking ;)

liolio 08-04-2018 11:55 AM

Update. Lots of time have passed sine my last post.
I'm still struggling with myself especially when it comes to maintain a proper form/sttroke though at this point it has more to do with my physical condition than technique per SE.
I've made breakthrough in all the stroke even butterfly starts to make sense.

To narrow things to front crawling I'm still prone to hyper ventilation (for not emptying my lgs properly but I made strides on every aspect of the stroke.
I've found as another member said that breathing on my non natural side is doing me a lot of good.
First I breath pretty well on that side even though it does not feel natural but it also force me to do a more accurate left arm motion. A Win-Win situation.

Still not my favorite stroke but at the moment I avoid symmetri stroke as much as possible as I found it is not the best way to fight my asymmetries (muscles, stance, etc.).

I'm pretty fast, I below 40s without diving on a 50m (one length). I would bet I can get in the +/- 30s on a proper sprint with diving.

liolio 08-09-2018 10:58 PM

More love
 
It is more and more of a love relation with front crawl I've to say. It seems that this stroke does my multiple issues more good that the others strokes even the so advertized backstroke.

I'm training to get comfortable taking two breaths in a row. Two breaths on three strokes do me good on 50 possibly 100m. I'm also learning to do it "on demand" blending it in more standard breathign patern.
I'm short with 3 strokes on breath on more than a couple 50m laps, I may move the 2 breaths followed by two or this strokes.
Still experimeting but it may work for me, I did not put enough times in my previous trials I think.

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-11-2018 02:30 AM

Hi Lilio,

Swimming 40 s in 50m is a 1:20/100m pace, thatís excellent. Given your description on breathing difficutly is certainly the exchange is not quite right yet. The source of the lack of exchange is usually tight chest, shoulders and neck - even if youíre in posture. One thing I have discovered that helps swimmers reduce this tension is to breathe on oneís, swimmer dosesnít have time to get out of posture and must be relaxed in chest, shoulder and neck to breathe on oneís

What is breathing on oneís? You breathe toward shoulder on one stroke then breathe toward opposite shoulder on next stroke. Itís also a good strategy to get more air when you need in open water, and in the pool before the turn and after the turn. Sun Yang and Katie Ledecky use this strategy going into and bouncing off the wall too; and in the middle of the length when they need air.

Start off the wall breathing on twoís (breathing on second stroke in cycle), then occasionally try breathing on oneís just for two strokes or single stroke cycle. Donít breathe on oneís (everything stroke) for the length or more than two strokes.

Give it a try. If you get air on both left and right shoulder breathing on oneís, you will become aware of the air exchange issues that are leaving you breathless, and will also find you donít have time to be breathless :-)

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com

liolio 08-13-2018 07:09 PM

Thanks for the cheering and advices. I indeed feel tense and a lot of!time air does not come in.
I notice that when breathing happens right it does not take long at all to fill the lumbs, though I've yet to properly gets what isnworng and where the tensions are.

I'll put your advice into practice to rythmically force exhalation as well as keeping alignement while move the head twice in row. I find that breathing twice in row all the time is too much for me for now (I may breathe to hard or as if I were to do 2, 3,4 or more strokes).
I can already tell the extra air convenient. I tend to breath randomly (on short distances in don't get into"a" rhythme) it helps recovering went delayed breathing a tad too long. An awesome tool ( once properly'mastered).

I won't give up on Gary Hall Jr approach so soon though, it can't arm to invest some more time in it. He is an olympian and he uses it. The argument he makes is sound to me. Now it is a different rhythme (faster) than any other stroke I use, I may be used to big gulps of air. I've to relax 😁

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-13-2018 10:37 PM

Hi Lilio,

Yup - it's all about relaxing (the shoulders, neck, chest) which allows a non labored, relaxed exchange of air. I use the Hall Jr pattern as well, 2,2,3,2,2,3,2.... to help maintain symmetry and force me to breathe on the weaker side every 3rd cycle. Frequently I use 2,2,4,2,2,4,2,... where I'm breathing, same side but have 4 strokes every 3rd cycle to reset posture. Also use 2,2,2,1,2,2,2,1,2... where I switch sides breathing on 1's every 4th cycle

Have several patterns to choose from and use the one that fulfills the air requirement given the (changing) conditions and/or event you're swimming.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

liolio 08-14-2018 04:31 PM

It is great tool. It felt better today, as I force myself to with a lesser breath one "ones" followed by a standard breath one the "two".
It will need quite a lot more work for me for the rythme to settle in but I actually think I may be able maintain close to pure 2:3. The first breath has to be tiny enough to mostly completely exhaled though the nose before the "two".
Taking overall tiny breaths made those breaths short /quick, I could feel the impact on my alignement on a couple moves then the feel slept BUT it motivates mee to keep walking that path some more :)

WHereas I'm more of a natural breaststroker I start to really enjoy front crawl and its feel when things start to come together it is indeed "smoother".

liolio 08-14-2018 05:57 PM

OFF topic
 
I do a lot but a lot of misspelling, I also tend to forget words here and there, etc.
Usually in forum I spent some time rereadding and correcting my post, is there an option avalaible here to edit posts?

WFEGb 08-14-2018 08:10 PM

Hello liolio,

Quote:

Usually in forum I spent some time rereadding and correcting my post, is there an option avalaible here to edit posts?
... there should be an "Edit"-button right down in all you own posts. (Edit, Quote, Multiquote, Quick Reply) You should be logged in to find...

Best regards,
Werner

liolio 08-15-2018 05:42 PM

For some reason the edit button is missing (I've the three others). May be I need to reach a given number of posts?

borate 08-15-2018 07:01 PM

It's just to the left of the QUOTE button. Are you logged in? Are you looking at one of your own posts?

WFEGb 08-15-2018 10:14 PM

Hello liolio,

Quote:

For some reason the edit button is missing (I've the three others). May be I need to reach a given number of posts?
Hmm...which browser do you use? Ever gave an other a try?

Best regards,
Werner

liolio 08-16-2018 01:14 PM

I don't know something related to my account. I use chrome by the way, I worked in IT support for a while I used to be comfortable with technology...
I gueess you guys will cope with the missing words, misspelling, etc. lol

Back to business great seance today.
Breathing on consecutive strokes is sinking in and it is super convenient.
I kind of naturally went up to three in row on a length today (guess I needed it).
I can't stick to a pure 2:3, I'll keep trying longer it ma help me to discover tensions technical flows, etc.

I investigate my breathing having your advices about relaxion in mind coach Stuart and I felt much BETTER today. Indeed I was focus on where are my head and shoulder, my alignement, the head elevation, body rotation, etc
Shortly put everything but the actual breathing, like any other part of the stroke it is a technical element. So today I focused on consciously relax while reaching the breathing postion and it works great. Trying to rush to get more air makes things worse, OK you manage for yourself a longer breathing windows but tensions prevent the air to really go in.
As a bonus, that relaxation in turn relax the all stroke, it is like those "fascia release". Not perfect yet but the simple fact to add breathing itself to the list of the conscious technical elements you have sort of did most of the work for me.
It is nothing, just a fraction of second when you think "about letting oneself go" before reach the breathing position but the difference is night and day.


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