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-   -   Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9585)

liolio 04-16-2018 10:26 PM

What seems to work the best for me is a "shallow" pull, something close to EVF. My feel is the Gary Hall Jr comment on drag is right.
If you go with NTEVF (not too early vertical forearm... lol) I found it pretty energy efficient and if goes well with core strength and body rotation.

WFEGb 04-17-2018 07:22 AM

Hello liolio,

just for the acronyms-list, what does NTEVF mean?

Best regards,
Werner

borate 04-17-2018 01:26 PM

> ...just for the acronyms-list, what does NTEVF mean?

Last line in Liolio's post: "not too early vertical forearm." ^_^

WFEGb 04-17-2018 02:27 PM

Hello Borate,

thank you.... Sensitive reading has advantages... :-(

Best regards,
Werner

Tom Pamperin 04-27-2018 10:40 AM

The question of how to develop a feel for the water is interesting. I'm not sure I have any new insights on how it happens, but I can report that it has started to happen for me through my work with the 2-beat kick.

Some of you may remember that this winter I have been adjusting the timing of my kick, kicking earlier than I used to. I now am kicking down (the "flick and hold" kick from Freestyle Mastery) at the moment that the same-side pulling arm is passing my head.

One result has been that I am starting my arm pull much sooner than I used to, with less glide up-front. In other words, my underwater arm is beginning to "grip" the water and move back into vertical-ish position even before my recovering arm enters the water. I feel like my pulling arm is locked into its position with elbows bent at near 90 degrees (maybe more like 100 degrees), and the entire arm is moved IN that locked position, from the lats. The bent arm GETS MOVED, it doesn't move itself. I agree the "ball under arm" drill Terry shows in Freestyle Mastery does a good job of giving you that feeling.

The key for me right now seems to be starting that slow movement down/back with the underwater arm early--just a moment after spearing. When I do this, the water feels "thick" (I feel that first with my hand as the wrist bends slightly to allow the hand to grip the water) and there is much more resistance for my forearm to push against. It also leads to a very smooth connection with the kick--which again happens just a tiny bit before the underwater arm passes my head during the pull.

There is much less glide to the stroke this way, and much less acceleration and deceleration in the stroke. It also results in a faster SR naturally, without rushing. It feels like power is being applied smoothly and continuously through the stroke cycle. It's a really good feeling, and lots of it depends on that feeling of "thick" water for the early catch. That "thick water" feel happens with my underwater arm still way out in front of my head, just a little behind the maximum extension of the spearing motion.

It seems to be much less demanding aerobically to swim this way--I often find myself going 4, 5, or even 6 strokes without a breath when cruising at a moderate pace (say 17:00 for 1000m open water).

So, for me, getting the timing of the kick has been the key for me. That led to an earlier catch and less glide, with a feeling of "thick" water to push against.

Long post--hope some of that is helpful, or at least interesting.

sclim 04-27-2018 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65251)

There is much less glide to the stroke this way, and much less acceleration and deceleration in the stroke. It also results in a faster SR naturally, without rushing. It feels like power is being applied smoothly and continuously through the stroke cycle. It's a really good feeling, and lots of it depends on that feeling of "thick" water for the early catch. That "thick water" feel happens with my underwater arm still way out in front of my head, just a little behind the maximum extension of the spearing motion.

It seems to be much less demanding aerobically to swim this way--I often find myself going 4, 5, or even 6 strokes without a breath when cruising at a moderate pace (say 17:00 for 1000m open water).

So, for me, getting the timing of the kick has been the key for me. That led to an earlier catch and less glide, with a feeling of "thick" water to push against.

Long post--hope some of that is helpful, or at least interesting.

I read all your points of what has changed in your stroke with great interest.

Regarding the bolded points, it is obvious that this stroke is using up less oxygen per minute. But you didn't specifically state that you are using less oxygen per distance covered. So, comparing before and after, did your SPL drop? (It would have to drop to compensate for the increased stroke rate if your speed stayed the same).

P.S. I can see that by eliminating some of the glide you have increased your efficiency by not requiring to speed up to a much higher speed than your average speed, which would be less efficient than a more steady-state-maintaining-velocity. This initially caused some confusion in my head, because part of my TI drill mentality was to glide more. But I see this now only as a practice to glide efficiently, i.e. more streamlined, in balance, etc., when you need to, but not necessarily to spend more time gliding -- in fact minimizing the glide time to a reasonable point is more efficient.

Tom Pamperin 04-28-2018 08:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65262)
So, comparing before and after, did your SPL drop? (It would have to drop to compensate for the increased stroke rate if your speed stayed the same).

Funny, but I'm not sure. I have been fortunate enough to take on a teaching job in the Marshall Islands, and have been living here and doing all my swimming in open water in the tropical Pacific. With coral reefs, colorful fish, sharks, and sea turtles--really, for a TI swimmer it's paradise. (That's why it took me awhile to get back to the forum). There's no such thing in my life as SPL anymore!

That's another important point: the magic I'm feeling in my stroke now has to be partly (largely) due to being in salt water--not only the extra buoyancy, but extra density as well. The water really is "thick" now. But I had been moving in that direction, and finding "thick" water to grip, even back in the U.S. in fresh water, so I don't think that salt water explains everything.

But the last time I swam in a pool, back in February, I don't think my SPL had dropped. The main change I was noticing was that my perceived exertion had gone WAY WAY down. I wasn't really faster, or using longer strokes, but as I mentioned before, I was suddenly going 4 or even 6 strokes between breaths, even during long repeats at 1:35/100m pace, which is pretty brisk for me. The implication seems to be that I ought to be able to get more speed eventually, but it was the effort that was affected most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65262)
P.S. I can see that by eliminating some of the glide you have increased your efficiency by not requiring to speed up to a much higher speed than your average speed, which would be less efficient than a more steady-state-maintaining-velocity. This initially caused some confusion in my head, because part of my TI drill mentality was to glide more. But I see this now only as a practice to glide efficiently, i.e. more streamlined, in balance, etc., when you need to, but not necessarily to spend more time gliding -- in fact minimizing the glide time to a reasonable point is more efficient.

sclim,

I think that's a really good analysis. I am in the early stages of hypothesizing that I have been a chronic over-glider in my TI practice. Maybe not enough to be obvious to observers, but enough to fail to engage in the proper timing for really efficient propulsion.

Playing with my 2-beat kick timing has been the best development I've experienced since I learned to lead my recovery with my elbow.

Another hypothesis: it has taken me a LONG time to feel what I'm feeling now, and it has resulted in a faster SR as described in earlier posts. But I am not sure I would have ever gotten here if I had set faster SR (i.e. faster tempos) as my goal. The tempo is happening as a RESULT of what I am doing, not as something I consciously set out to do.

Tom Pamperin 04-28-2018 08:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65262)
So, comparing before and after, did your SPL drop? (It would have to drop to compensate for the increased stroke rate if your speed stayed the same).

Aha--another thought here.

Maybe what I am experiencing is that I am achieving the same SPL the RIGHT way now--so the speed and SPL are the same, but the perceived effort has gone down, just as Coach Stuart described. Lower SPL = lower perceived effort, which seems to be exactly what I'm describing.

I'd be very interested to hear from some TI coaches or other experienced swimmers about whether my theory of having been over-gliding (and now using a faster SR has cut that glide time, and reduced acceleration/deceleration) might explain my sudden improvement.

Mushroomfloat 04-29-2018 12:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65265)
Aha--another thought here.

Maybe what I am experiencing is that I am achieving the same SPL the RIGHT way now--so the speed and SPL are the same, but the perceived effort has gone down, just as Coach Stuart described. Lower SPL = lower perceived effort, which seems to be exactly what I'm describing.

I'd be very interested to hear from some TI coaches or other experienced swimmers about whether my theory of having been over-gliding (and now using a faster SR has cut that glide time, and reduced acceleration/deceleration) might explain my sudden improvement.

Yes, you are actually "crawling" now.

What you describe is known as "Meathook" freestyle

You enter closer and the hand "curls" over (with slightly spread fingers)
This pulls your arm down into a half circle shape (swiss ball under arm)

Rotation is snappy and instantaneous

A fast continuous propulsion

There is some glide but it happens as you are rocketing along (no dwell)

In another thread i mentioned the feeling of crawling over a huge sand dune with claws.

Mushroomfloat 04-29-2018 12:52 AM

Basically curling over and down to VW bumber but from directly from entry, the "glide" occurs on the initial curl over, the arm never pauses "in / curl / hook"


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