Tom:

Just to address a little detail on the low (catching) side -- now that we have established that the mail-slot entry up to the wrist-level or so is accomplished prior to any rotation downward of the high shoulder.

I believe you had mentioned that in your stroke experimentation you had started to initiate the low side catch earlier, and that the whole sequence schedule had been moved ahead in time compared to how you had been doing it before, so that it started to look more like a kayak pattern (even if the anchoring arm didn't actually reach the 180 degree separation angle, the separation angle did increase compared to your old style).

Is it possible not to change this low-side "advancement" and yet still do the high-side mail-slot entry with delayed rotation of the high side? What I'm thinking of is the mantra of the patient lead hand (which at this point is the low side), and not acting on the impulse to initiate the catch until the mail-slotting fingertips have passed the mid-forearm of the patient lead hand. I'm thinking that perhaps this might prolong the free glide for a slightly longer distance (and thus achieve a longer stroke length).

I'm also not certain of what happens exactly when one is feeling for thick water. I had thought that perhaps one can feel the thick water without necessarily catching it. Perhaps my imagination is too fanciful, but during my spear, if I really concentrate, I think I can "feel" the thickness of water with my fingers and maybe with my palm, even though my spear is still going forward and not yet catching, and that this feel of thickness of water is a useful setup prior to actual initiation of the catch and anchor. Or am I imagining things, and to "feel thickness" is synonymous with some change in finger and hand movement that is at least part of initiation of catching?

Nobody is going to anchor and vault over anything staying up on edge until their highside wrist is in the water.

It's just nuggetry to think that momemtum from the high side arm can be harnessed this way.

It's a corkscrew transition.

Your edge starts changing with a nudge down of the highside hip to engage a hook under the water
It goes from say 45deg hip to 30deg hip spear enters water and hip drives on down and through.

You wont get any fancy high elbow recovery with this it's a high swinger start to a low over water entry with a small bend in the elbow.

Here is a coach
https://youtu.be/3K1vfana92c

The highside arm is connected to the pelvis it has to go with it

As a side note:

The key to Sharkfin & sailboat drills is:

45 deg hip rotation sharkfin

transitioning to....

30 deg hip rotation sailboat

you take your catch on the transition

"opening & closing"

"Tigers & Eagles"

"The shaw method"

Yes, that's what I've been doing--beginning the catch earlier so that there is much less overlap between arms. It's still front quadrant timing, but the underwater arm is already getting near to leaving the front quadrant as the spearing arm reaches full extension. That leads to a naturally higher SR and tempo without really trying or struggling to be faster.

Yes, I think that's perfectly possible. Now that I have been focusing so much on timing, I'm starting to believe that adjusting the amount of overlap between arms (i.e. adjusting the extent of the front quadrant timing) is an effective way to manipulate SPL and SR. I think it will work just as you say, and then it's a matter of choosing the right amount of delay in the catch to work at the speed and distance you are swimming. Longer stroke = more glide and lower SPL, but also more acceleration and deceleration. I'm enjoying the less glide-ish stroke right now, feels like much more continuous propulsion. But yesterday I took it easy and allowed a later catch and more glide--that works, too.

I typically don't try to feel thick water during the spearing motion, but only afterward, as the arm drifts slowly down and back (no pressure) into the catch. One thing that seems to help me perceive thick water is that as soon as my arm enters, I try to have my fingertips pointing down toward the bottom of the pool (another idea I got from Terry's Youtube videos). That means a slight relaxation/arc in the wrist. I also slightly squeeze my hand and fingers (SLIGHTLY), as if I am gently grabbing onto a large grapefruit. That all happens during the arm drifting down and back into the catch. Then I have a good grip by the time the spear/kick/rotation/pressing motion all happens.

But by all means, I think it's exactly the right thing to direct awareness to how, exactly, the water feels on your hands/arms/skin. Terry used to talk about "separating the water molecules" on hand entry--that was his focal point to avoid splashing. I think he might have meant an intense focus on the sensations of his fingers contacting the water, kind of like what you described above. I think if you keep trying to feel or even imagine those sensations, you will be developing the capacity to be aware and feel the thick water.

It'd be interesting to hear what other experienced swimmers and coaches think about all this.

So are Shinji and Terry doing it wrong?

Yes, Coach Mandy--but the clip you showed doesn't have anything to do with the question of the timing of the body rotation. It's all about how to swing the elbow wide on recovery.

You can swing your elbow wide on recovery and still use Terry and Shinji's timing. Did I miss why you posted this clip? Thanks!

QUOTE=Tom Pamperin;65494]So are Shinji and Terry doing it wrong?[/quote]

There certainly not doing what your on about here

https://youtu.be/tFmnJnmahLw

&
How is an anchor and vault done if younare staying right up on the underwater edge all the way to entry?
You will not be anchoring / catching with rotation

But look at the videos of them swimming--you can see quite clearly that until the wrist of the right hand (for example), Terry's body (or Shinji's) remains on its left side.

I didn't make this up--I am only reporting what happens in the videos. You can look for yourself.

Saying that they are "certainly not doing" that isn't very convincing when there is lots of video evidence showing that they ARE doing it. Unless you have some other evidence you haven't posted?

Are you saying Terry and Shinji are not anchoring? There's video of Shinji swimming 25m in 9 strokes, which suggests that he anchors his underwater arm pretty well. So, why do you assume anchoring can't be done that way?

I'm puzzled by your disagreement about what is going on in the TI demo videos. I'm not saying that this is the only way to swim. I'm not even saying it's the best way. All I am doing is reporting what can be seen in the videos.

From my own experimentation, I can tell you that delaying rotation like this does seem to work pretty well. Have you ever tried it? If not, give it a go and see what happens. What can you lose?

sclim,

I've been thinking a bit more about this. Maybe "patient lead arm" means only not to start the propulsive part of the underwater arm's motion too soon. I mean that maybe the effortless, no-pressure "drifting" of the lead arm down and back to be ready for the pressing motion doesn't count--maybe it's only the actual press backward that needs to be delayed. And maybe the reason for the delay is to make sure the pressing motion, kick, rotation, and spearing motion all happen at once?

I've been monitoring myself pretty closely by watching for bubbles/turbulence during the pressing motion, and when I'm doing it right, there are no bubbles. That seems to indicate a pretty solid anchor and lack of slipping, even with letting the lead arm drift downward before pressing.

Even in Shinji's 9-stroke 25m swim (which you'd think would need to maximize gliding), you can see the lead arm drifting downward even before the spearing arm enters--look around 1:03-1:04:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4InLAsnmKhY

Not sure about this, just musing and speculating. There is some time where the lead arm remains motionless, but there's not much from what I can see.

A side note: Shinji swims 25m at 12 SPL in about :18 in this video.

That's about my best 50m pace at 15-16 SPL, and I'm 6'2" (he's 5'8")

You're absolutely right.

I've been thinking about my logic -- faulty, and incomplete, as it turns out. I was blindly applying the advice of "patient lead hand" to the point of hoping to get a magical free ride with a period of passive glide squeezed into the stroke sequence, magical in the sense that I was getting free propulsion against whatever drag factors the water was exerting without any expenditure of energy during that short period, and no penalty to pay, then or subsequently.

I forgot that whatever velocity got bled off during this "free ride" needed to be re-acquired whenever one decided it was time to anchor! So there would be no point delaying for too long the initiation of catch and anchor beyond any duration that was long enough for the slight bleeding off of the maximum velocity acquired during its (prior) entering and spearing -- but not so much time that the lost velocity has dropped to so low a speed that it becomes inefficient to speed it up again.

Or, as you so succinctly put it:

Longer stroke = more glide and lower SPL, but also more acceleration and deceleration.

Obviously there must be a sweet spot somewhere, but it has to do with keeping maximum and minimum velocities reasonably close together, i.e. as constant a speed as you can achieve while keeping hydrodynamic drag profile as smooth and small as possible during all the transitions.

Damn it -- I'm doing it again, over-thinking things when experienced swimmers just know when they've hit the sweet spot just by feeling relaxed and fastest.

The spearing arm never stops moving from entry

It drops under its own weight and arcs down (pinkie down 30 deg) to vw bumper skate

(breath snatched whilst high)

Thick water and hook is felt about 45 deg below surface

Lock on with nudge down of high side hip as high side arm heads for entry.

"corkscrew"

check phelps & bowman:

https://youtu.be/yIGFKbCKXzw

You're right, at the moment you flagged there is a bit of downward drift of the lead arm just before the other hand enters. But I think this is an anomaly. At other times it appears that the lead hand stays perfectly still till just about the moment of other hand entry. In the slo-mo sequence 0:29 to about 0:43 there are 3 finger-tip mail-slot entries captured. In the first and third instances the lead hand does not move until the mail-slot moment, maybe even a split second after. In the second instance the lead hand fingers start to dip just a hair before the other side fingers hit the water. I never noticed before or paid attention to this before. What exquisite timing and control and consistency! And not just timing -- the whole body line is entirely straight up to the lead hand finger-tip, and unmoving, until the moment he wants to apply traction. Not a moment before!

Not quite.

Again, pondering what the physics would demand of us, ideally the lead arm finger tip would drift along starting from maximum velocity (from prior momentum) losing velocity gradually as the other arm recovered and finally entered (unless the kick or hip nudge started at some point), but then at the ideal moment there would be an instantaneous transformation of the lead hand and forearm spearing passively at slowly decreasing velocity into a vertical anchor holding a wall of water at zero velocity.

Pretty unrealistic scenario, one would think, but look at that slo-mo sequence I flagged 0:29 to 0:43. I turned the video playback to slow motion, so it's slo-mo on slo-mo.

The tile square grid at the pool floor is really useful in tracking relative motions of trunk and lead/catching hand. It's fascinating! At the moment he chooses, the passive lead hand spear velocity gets very rapidly (hardly any slowing down, as far as I could detect!) changed to negative velocity as the fingertips drop into catch and slip backwards a little (but not much -- most of the apparent slip is actually parallax optical effect) through the water until the hand and forearm paddle reaches the elbow station just as the shoulder passes over it. For a brief moment the hand-wrist-forearm-elbow unit locks solidly onto the water and there is no slip at all, then suddenly the paddle seems to lose a lot of grip as it slips quite a bit on the last portion of the stroke on its exit path.

What an excellent demonstration of perfectly executed efficiency in water!

(All I have addressed is the relative forward and backward movements and forces of the spearing and catching hand(s). I'm sure there is validity in the point that mushroomfloat is making, something related to the significance of high-side rotational delay at the moment of entry and subsequent capture of the corkscrew energy to leverage into efficient forward propulsion -- but I must say I have had such a problem getting this far in understanding the sequence of relative hand movements and positions that I haven't even come close to understanding his point).

Pah!

It is shelia taorminas "sliced hand exit" releasing from belly button on down & out

Nobody is anchoring & vaulting without counter rotational lock on

All here:

https://youtu.be/OdaP6DdrQIw

Yeah it's quite amazing how much grip Shinji has on the water. Also notice where his hand exits the water is roughly a yard in front of where it entered! He's moving forward 80% of his height on each stroke (in the 12 stroke video at 1.2 tempo). His low side arm moves at the same speed the body moves forward, a true or clean vault over low side arm.

The 9 stroke video I've given Shinji a hard time about. He's stroking a 1.7 tempo and lingering at the hip at exit and a slight pause at left entry. It's a great balance stroke rehearsal, cool demo - but not a true stroke count. Not a stroke he would swim at a distance at that slow tempo.

Where Shinji's stroke really comes together best is where he's swimming around 60 spm or 1.0 sec tempo. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WM_i5BNV4Jw His kick timing is still a touch early on the right side due to his left recovery release brushing his hip at exit triggering a slight imbalance. From an observer, coach on deck - this is his best tempo where everything clicks and is sustainable for a long distance.

We swam bridge to bridge 10k (Golden Gate to Oakland Bay Bridge) a couple years ago, Shinji was given some advice and changed is stroke to 70+spm to stay warmer in cold, choppy water (Bay temp 58 degs that day). His stroke, not graceful - looked sloppy and poppy, losing that Shinji grip - but we both finish together. I didn't know it was Shinji, nor he knew it was me until we touched the finish buoy - hilarious. My stroke rate 1.05 or 57spm which is my sweet spot long distance tempo - but I've spent more time in cold water living on the Calif coast. Shinji and I are the same height at 5' 8", but his wingspan 6'2"; my wingspan 5'10". it was a treat swimming with my coach and mentor in one of my fav swims on the planet.

Stu

A wingspan of 6'2" on a 5'8" body! That seems like a pretty extreme ape index.

Lol, it's certainly an index. I recall when Shinji and Terry stood back to back, arms extended, Shiji's wingspan extended past Terry's and Terry was 6' tall.

Tom, if you are interested in kicktiming and connection, study Thorpes 3 stage 2Beat kick and try to copy the 3 stages and how they connect to differnt other parts in the stroke.
Every action in the legs is to counter balance disturbtions in other places or give supporting power to further movements.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FHszSCgMkpU.

I wouldnt focus on such a detailed level on Terrys or any others stroke.
Stroke detailes are driven by personal strenght and weaknesses.
Only if you have the same make up as Terry or Shinji that particular stroke will come to you naturally.
Terry has not much flexibility, and rather sinky legs. His armtiming is farther from catchuptiming as any other TI swimmer on youtube.
Shinji with his flexible body, long arms and better natural balance has a rather different style on a detail level.

ZT,

thanks for the thoughts (as always) and the link. I hear what you're saying.

I don't think I'm looking too closely at any one swimmer, though; the timing of the kick is consistent among all the good TI swimmers I've watched--the kick firing at about the same time the same-side (underwater) arm is passing the shoulder during the pressing motion.

That later kick timing has been a big revelation to me, and I would never have discovered it by myself without carefully analyzing TI videos. Terry, Shinji, Coach Mandy, Coach Dave Cameron--they are all doing that consistently, with slight individual variations, from what I see.

They also all appear to avoid rotation until the spearing arm has already entered the water--thus, spearing with the right arm (for example) while still on their left side. That's another aspect I am trying to match.

So, how closely swimmers match in fine details perhaps matters less than getting these essential characteristics of timing correct. That's my current focus, anyway!

You may be right, although I think I see a slight movement of the lead arm even during that first hand entry at 0:29, and during the third hand entry, at 0:43. You can see that the lead arm has dropped just a bit by the time the spearing hand is wrist-deep. But you are correct, it's a very patient lead arm with much less drifting into the catch.

However, in THIS SHINJI VIDEO the downward drift of the lead arm is quite obvious. This video was posted in 2014, but I don't know when it was shot, or if his stroke has evolved since then. Or if, indeed, the drift of the lead arm is a variable that good swimmers manipulate, rather than a constant feature of their stroke (I suspect that is the case, though).

My current tentative theory is that the amount of downward drift may be one of the factors that good swimmers consciously manipulate when they choose to change SPL--more patient lead arm = lower SPL, more downward drift = higher SR and higher SPL.

OR: Is it the other way around? Maybe less drift = lower SPL, because the propulsive phase of the pressing motion is longer in both time and distance? (Longer because the "catch" happens with the arm still farther forward, the EVF effect--early not in time, but early in the arm's backward motion). If that's the case, than more downward drift with the lead arm would lead to higher SPL, but perhaps also less perceived effort?

(I've never been able to explain to my own satisfaction HOW it is that I can choose to swim at varying SPLs, and pretty much hit my SPL target every time. I must be doing SOMETHING measurable. I wonder if this is part of the answer?)

I'm pretty much the same (though slightly taller 5.87 179cm). Some see that has an advantage but it is not always from my limited experience.
While swimming on the back it is nice as I do long strokes and keep my exercion level low (at least as far as the heart rate is concerned), breathing is not an issue.
While front crawling if I follow my natural inclinaiso (the same long stroke) I run into a breathing issue, less SPL also means less breaths. I still fin it unpractical to breath every three strokes not sustainable (yet), whenever I try I shorten the "usefull" part of my stroke to up the pace and allow for more O2.
It is great in breaststroke, at that is my perception. I get lots of motion out of the limited useful part of the arm motion.
In butterfly I've other issues to cope with but I would say that an issue (sahre with back and front crawl) is that wingspam is nice but you got to move those longs segments which requires strength.

Compared to the people I see around me I would say that the stroke that benefit the most of the wing spam (for me at least) is the breaststroke.

I can see another advantage to a long 'wingspan' and that would be when using front quadrant swimming. The extra long arms will help as a counter-weight to the legs, bringing them up -- and thereby contributing to better horizontal balance.

If he needs to to trim up, when I became aware of possibly low legs I just lifted my kick. when swimming this morning I noticed my left foot occasionally breaking the surface so i deliberately had my right foot break the surface.

The potential problem with the above would be swimming with a lot of leg bend or a hollow back, but the following photo would imply that was good enough for Thorpe.

As promised, I paid attention to kick timing during recovery phase.
Since lower arm is extended, holding the water, I see no way to throw upper
side and recover, than to use kick as support. Without a kick, there must be
lower arm anchor. I hesitate to anchor early, so kick is quite important.
Having all that in place, I am able to make vertical forearm and hold a lot of
water. Not to keep it, but to lean on it and go further.
Best regards.

With a stable torso and good balance, there should be no reason to use the kick (or anything else) as support. The torso is supported by the water, not by body movements.

I think you mean you are kicking while the recovery happens, and before the spearing arm enters the water. Did I understand that correctly?

If so, then you seem to be doing something different from the Shinji, Terry, Coach Mandy, and the other TI demo videos. Have you tried doing it their way? I'd be interested in hearing how it goes for you if you do give it a try.

Yes this was my point, the lower arm anchor is locked about halfway theough the recovery which makes a corckscew action of the body at entry the 2bk is the naturally occuring tail end of the corskcew ripple through out the body & down the leg

mine occurs as the underwater arm passes the shoulder and accelerates to finish / exit

when i watch shinji i can see the corkscrew action ending with a flick down the leg

I have a balance, quite easily.
Have to go to the pool to check out when I kick, but, out of the water,
I'm sure I use kick to enable "throw one side of the body". There is just
nothing to help me, if I do not kick. Lower arm is patient and extended.
I will answer at weekend. What I'm positive is that I think and probably
use recovery and kick for the same thing.
For me an anchor is separated from recovery. I do not use an anchor to
propel and help recovery. I do it later.To add to the momentum.
As I said, cannot say for sure without a pool.
Best regards.

>>Rotation/Catch/Kick Variants in Synchronization and Timing
 

I have followed the expanding discussion to my initial naive question with great interest and satisfaction. I have gained a lot of insight from the contributors' knowledge, from the questions asked and answered, and even from the as yet unresolved issues. This is great guys!

However, for the sake of those trying to follow the thread topic, I have edited the original thread title, because the discussion sort of morphed into Rotation/Catch/Kick synchronization variants. I will start a new thread with this new title, because that's what seems to be the crux of the current discussion, and the discussion can continue there.

PS: Hmm, it seems I can't change or edit the thread title, so I'll just add a descriptive title to this last post on this now poorly-named thread