I think i can see Shelly opening up and closing in for entry here

https://youtu.be/rCga-UiIjSA

i think if you stay "open" all the way you end up with a negative angle between the arms relative to the back plane
Closing up for entry / catch puts the arms in a positive angle

Marc Evans back & shoulders seem to open & close here from 2:10
https://youtu.be/tPRs-CXf2ao

You lost me with the "opening and closing" idea and "positive and negative angles"--I'm not really seeing that as a useful visualization for me personally. I guess I'm not sure what you mean, or why it's better than standard TI terms.

I did find the Shaw stuff potentially interesting. I've heard good things about the Alexander technique for finding proper relaxation and biomechanics.

Yes--I felt the hips were driving some of the rotation. Although I'm sure I am doing some things right, and my stroke is working well, I've never been able to feel much awareness that the hips were a CAUSE of rotation before. As I put all my attention into maintaining the momentum of the high-side arm, and trying to feel the spearing motion pulling me forward, and connected to the pelvis--that's when I started to feel an awareness of moving my hips, and the rest of the body following along.

Partly this may have happened because I was also directing attention to my thighs, rather than the lower leg or foot, during my 2BK--feeling the thigh of the kicking leg brush the other thigh. This seemed to lead to a smaller, more streamlined kick, and one more closely connected to the hip.

Well, my kick timing is now later than it was. So the rotation and kick is happening AFTER the wrist of the spearing arm enters the water. By the time the hips are driving the body through the rotation, they are being aided by the weight of the spearing arm and the kick all at once. It seems to be three forces added together and applied with good timing and coordination--which of course makes it much more effective. The new piece for me is that I am now starting to be aware that the hips THEMSELVES are adding force to the rotation, and working in synergy with the spearing arm and the kick.

I think the momentum of the recovery comes not so much from the hips, but more from having a proper exit at the end of the pressing motion. The arm does not move back to press, then forward to recover. It's more of a circular path, involving big muscles in the back/shoulder (and relaxed arms)--the Shaw Technique video posted above does a pretty good job of showing that in dry-land rehearsal movements. That, I think, is what keeps the recovery momentum up, which is then transferred into the spearing motion on the next stroke, with no hitch or pause. For that, the two things that have helped me most are being sure to have a palm-up exit at the end of the stroke, and to begin moving the arm/shoulder forward into the recovery while the recovering hand is still in the water.

It may be that my hips have been doing this all along to some degree, and I am only now developing the capacity to be aware of it. That progression from unawareness to awareness seems to be a regular part of my progress. for example, I remember how difficult it was at first even to perceive the timing of my kick when I was learning the 2BK--it took all my attention. But by continual efforts to direct attention in that direction, my capacity to be aware without needing to try hard to be aware has developed a LONG way.

So, one important benefit of mindful practice is that by TRYING to be aware, we develop the CAPACITY needed for that awareness. Eventually that level of awareness becomes almost automatic, and it becomes fairly easy to make conscious adjustments to timing and movement paths.

I think I am barely beginning to develop the capacity to be aware of what my hips are actually doing.

If the kick is happening after the spearing wrist passes the water line, at which point the upper (spearing) side of the trunk must be just passing the neutral zero degree angle, or maybe just before that zero angle, then the initiation of the rotation is totally independent of the kick. If the kick is happening a little later, overlapping with the other arm catching then anchoring, then the added rotational component from the kick is only being added in the second half of the rotation, when the kicking side has already rotated to the high side. Obviously not too late to cause over-rotation, but still later than I would have expected.

(and by my analysis, kinda late in the rotation cycle)

This sounds a little like it could be imitated by visualizing the recovery a little like a whipping action, like snapping the handle of a whip at the shoulder whiie the hand is still in the water having the "ripple" of the whip-snap travel down to the finger tips to whip the fingertips out of the water and immediately laterally in their recovery arc. Does that fit in with what you think you are doing?

I'm glad much of my thinking and awareness during practice doesn't have to be put into words--these discussions get complicated! So a disclaimer:the analysis I am offering is based on memory of what it felt like while swimming. I am certainly NOT trying to think about all of this stuff at once while swimming. It's only by thinking about it afterwards that I get into these complicated descriptions--which I find interesting and helpful in clarifying my own perceptions. So:

I think we have a disagreement here about what is happening with the timing of rotation, so I'll clarify what I think is happening in my own stroke when I feel like I'm getting things right.

What I feel is that no rotation happens at all until the spearing arm (let's say a left-side arm, as in the attached photo of Terry) is wrist-deep. Up until that point, the body remains solidly in right-side skate position. You can see that in Terry's demo from Freestyle Mastery (photo attached here). You can also see it pretty well at 0:49 in THIS DEMO VIDEO, although there he is spearing with the right arm while in left-side skate.

Then, continuing from 0:49 in the video link above, as the right arm continues to push toward full extension, AND the left arm is passing the shoulder and beginning the propulsive pressing motion, AND the left leg is kicking down--during that window, all of the rotation happens. There is no exact "moment" of rotation, because it takes time for all of these movements (spear, kick, press, rotation) to be completed, but they all happen simultaneously as far as I can feel and see in Terry's videos. The rotation itself is MUCH later in the stroke cycle than I had been doing before, but I think that unified late timing is the key to a really solid connection through core and hips and kick and spear.

Do you see something different when you look at those videos, sclim? It seems pretty clear to me (though that may be my bias creeping in and seeing what I expect to see). Watch it at .25 speed on Youtube and tell me what you think.

I haven't used a whip visualization--for me, the transition from pressing motion to recovery is more like the feeling you get when you stand up and quickly move your arm (straight but relaxed) in a big circle (the kind of quick big circling motion you see people do as a warm-up sometimes), where momentum helps the whole arm move quickly while it's still very relaxed, and you can feel the centrifugal force pulling the blood to your hands and fingertips.

(Who knew I was smart enough to do all this complicated stuff every time I swim? :)

Shinji also appears to remain solidly in skate position with no rotation until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. You can see it at 1:07 where he is spearing with the left arm while in right-side skate.

Check this clip of shinji with the better timing

https://youtu.be/Henk1lF74QY

By the way i think you do start heading over to the entry side towards the end of the recovery, if you dont your shoulders wont like it unless your skating at near 90 ddgrees

What is the point of kicking?
(1) To push more the body forward when we are at the beginning of our most streamlined position (the skate). If this is the case then kicking when hand start the skate position after entering water should be the most effective.
or
(2) to aid the rotation, ultimately giving more oomph to the hip rotation and the pressing hand , for this kicking earlier make more sense.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't know which one is better :-).

I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me in this post (or maybe neither), but here's a couple of questions/observations:

1. What makes this timing "better?" The first 0:21 seems like maybe rotation is starting a little earlier than I describe, but after that, it matches pretty well with what I described seeing in the other videos on this thread.

2. At 0:22, and again at 0:38, and at 0:40, and again at 0:42, and 0:47, he is spearing with the right arm while still pretty much in left-side skate. At 0:39 and 0:41, and 0:49, he is spearing with left arm while in right-side skate. Watch it at .25 speed and this becomes easier to see. It seems to be pretty consistent.

3. The timing on when the underwater arm starts to drift down and back after spearing is pretty much as I have been describing--the underwater arm is set in the catch and ready to begin the pressing movement by the time the spearing arm is entering the water. This is still front quadrant timing, but there is not MUCH overlap where both hands are in front of the head. It is VERY far away from catch-up timing.

4. His kick is happening pretty much as I described, when the pressing arm passes the shoulder. I do notice his kick begins before the spearing arm reaches full extension.

If the kick is to aid rotation of the lower body (which I think is the main function), then it has to happen as the rotation happens, at the same time. It's a simple Newton's Law application. As the right leg kicks down, the right hip is pushed UP, rotating the body onto the left side (left hip down, right hip up).

So, kicking happens at the same time as rotation, because the kick helps CAUSE the rotation. If the rotation happens late (as I am theorizing in this discussion, and as I see in the video demos from Terry and Shinji), then the kick has to happen late as well. The kick and rotation are two sides of the same coin. You can't really have one without the other.

Does anyone see something different in the videos? To me, the timing looks pretty clear. It also confirms what I am feeling in my own stroke.

But there are many many moments in the demo videos of Terry and Shinji that show very little rotation until the spearing arm is wrist-deep. How do you explain that?

That's an honest question, by the way, not a challenge. It's all too easy to see only the evidence that supports my own argument, I know, and I may well be missing something.

Yes i meant better timing as in more vaulting stroke timing than extreme catch up

Ive watched many swimmers and i see a slight roll towards the entering arm at the end of recovery.
if you look at the shinji video i posted his hips go almost flat at entry they dont stay up on edge more a transition towards the about to enter arm

Swimming stroke is a rolling twisting 3 dimentional thing

There are rolls towards and rolls away from with rises and falls throughout the stroke cycle

Otherwise it is an edge swapping skate drill no?

I disagree; that is not what I see in the video. If there is hip (or upper body) rotation happening before the spearing arm is wrist-deep, it is very very minimal.

Look at 1:32, for example (photo is attached). Here Shinji is spearing with his right arm, and his hips have not begun to rotate. His right hip is still high, near the surface, even as his right wrist is in the water. His hips are definitely NOT "almost flat at entry" as you posted. And there are many moments like this in the video--the timing seems consistent.

Whats happening here then Tom........ v

https://youtu.be/e24vIP-3b3w

P.S there is whole stroke at 2:50 ^^^^

Hips are flat at entry every time

i might be wrong but i thought this was the whole point of gaining momentum from the highside arm?

Keeping on edge will stall that no?

"The momem arm is connected to the pelvis pulling it forward" etc etc

your not going to "ride forward on the space" during a hip transition yor going to ride forward on a flat hip rotating to down?

For one thing, that video shows a drill and not actual swimming.

For another thing, it's not Shinji or Terry. :)

But yes, in that drill the rotation begins as the recovering arm is moving forward, not at all the kind of timing I am talking about.

Well, that's not really whole stroke either. It is a drill that slowly moves more toward whole stroke as he reaches the end of the pool, but doesn't really reach actual swimming speed.

But you are right that the swimmer in the video is using different timing than Shinji and Terry. His hips are indeed flat at entry. There are many different ways to swim.

My point is that TI, as exemplified by Terry and Shinji, seems to use the timing that I am talking about, where the swimmer remains on his side, WITHOUT rotating, until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. Do you see anything to suggest I'm wrong about that?

I'm thinking of it this way: staying on your edge longer means that you preserve more potential kinetic energy from the recovering arm, so that when you do finally rotate (along with spear, kick, and pressing motion) there is more energy available. With the timing I see in Terry and Shinji's videos, you apply as much energy as you can in as short a time as possible by staying on your side longer and then rotating all at once.

And if power = work divided by time (which it does--that's basic physics), then a quicker rotation (doing the same amount of work in a shorter time) is a more powerful rotation. Thus the need to preserve more energy to use by NOT rotating early.

This is getting maybe a little too theoretical (and too speculative) to be very useful, but it's interesting to think about. (To me, anyway!) Thanks for the discussion.

Yes, im not disputing the standard TI technique, i thoughtvwe were cracking the anchor & vault using momentum form the high side arm stroke a'la bill boomers video? (with a straight arm recovery) ?

I don't the full momemtum of the high side arm can be harnessed if your still on te opposite edge at entry + to get a "hook" for the vault the high side hip has to start dropping to get the lock on with rotation (in my trials anyway)

which goes back to my shaw method "opening & closing" concept.

Still maybe too much detail as you say.

Body is balanced and having low drag.
Lower side extended, with hand a bit down, holding the water. Upper side
recovers, throws that side with either leading elbow or with straight arm.
Contrary leg kicks to help recovery.
When the body rotates, lower arm has oportunity to bend and gets vertical.
When completelly anchoring, swimmer "jumps" over an anchor even further.
No pull. Head should be in neutral position, sealed to armpit.
That's how I see our subject.

fooboo,

I don't understand this. The kick actually happens after the recovery, and during the spearing motion (at least in Terry and Shinji's videos)--so how can it help recovery? The recovery has already happened. What are you seeing differently?

Mainly, I think, the kick is rotational--as you kick the leg down, that same hip is pushed upward (Newton's Law). That rotates the hips and legs. I'm not seeing a direct connection to the recovery motion.

No, I had forgotten (in my visual memory) the specifics of sequences seen in the video, and was following the sequence in my mind as you described your stroke, and had, for some loose-brained reason, visualized (wrongly) that when the finger-tips did the mail slot entry, it meant that (to reach the water) the mail-slotting high side required to have rotated down to get to the waterline by the time the finger-tip entry happened.

Your description actually explains it very well:

Actually the reference back to the Shinji video was very useful -- the slo-mo breakdown of the various micro components of the stroke was instructive, much more so than when I had seen it before, maybe, but had not learned the other balance and other details to make the information useful.

And I hadn't realized that the Boomer demo video was a completely different style, and rhythm, and only a drill anyway, to demonstrate a different point.

It was so obvious to me, I never gave it second taught.
I'm not in a pool, so have to rethink the issue. On left flank, right arm starts
to recover. When starting to break the water surface, left leg kicks from the
hip. To me it is all the same step. I will pay attention very first time I come to
the pool.
Regarding videos, seems I start to differ from them. When I find something,
that suits me better, I follow. Like head sealed to armpit, high leading arm...
Best regards.

Ah, that makes sense. These days I think of my kick connected to my underwater arm--right leg kicks as right arm begins pressing motion.

You are choosing to feel the kicking leg connected to the spearing arm--the right leg kicks as left arm spears.

I may try connecting that way again and see how it feels. That is how I started when I was learning the 2BK, but I now feel a much stronger connection between same-side arm and kicking leg. It may be time to re-visit my perceptions and see what happens.

In other words, I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

Yesss!

I finally did it.

The spearing hand does the finger-tip mail-slot entry, while the same side shoulder is held back somewhat, still on high side.

I'm not sure exactly how I held back the high side, maybe it was merely letting the hand entry "get ahead" a little. But it wasn't enough to cause stalling. Just enough of a slowing so the rotation got held back a little, then as the spearing arm got deeper, the (top-side) hip drive kicked in, and other side delayed kick finally happened as the catch became a hold and rotation all happened at once.

The slight holding back of the rotation had a little of a sensation of pulling back on a slingshot then letting go. Very subtle, but it had the net effect of the trunk tending to spend more time on the high side delaying a bit, then sort of speeding through the rotation through the middle (zero degrees) portion to get to the other high side quickly. If this "flat" middle position is the phase of greatest drag, then I can see that this strategy would generate the least total drag summation throughout out all the time increments of the cycle. Of course, there are likely to be other benefits, stretching the core oblique rotator muscles before releasing like a sling-shot probably enhances the efficiency of the core rotation mechanism.

It's still early days, so I have yet to get used to the new rhythm and balance and all.

Ha! I know that feeling from my own TI practice--something suddenly clicks and is working differently--better--than before. Working with this timing has certainly changed the way I swim for the better. Congrats, sclim, and good luck as you continue your explorations.

Lately I've been watching a bunch of Terry's videos on Youtube--talks he gave at various events, etc. One of the things that caught my attention was his description of always having a very specific point in space where he aims his spearing motion--some of the videos showed this as an X and Y axis coordinate system. At one point, Terry mentioned that when he speared, he always wanted his spearing hand to drive right through the target point--all the way through it, not just to it.

I swam for about an hour continuous open water last night with that thought in mind, and found it really helpful to keep my attention on the high side arm and avoid any urge to pull with the low arm. Spearing THROUGH the target point.

All the other arm has to do is make a good shape and hold the shape (another thing I got from the videos), no pulling.

I'll keep on with this for a while--a very simple specific focus that seems to do a lot of important stuff almost automatically.

Another reminder that I shouldn't have needed: there is a HUGE goldmine of swimming wisdom in all of the TI materials on Youtube, even the older stuff (I think the video where I found this was from 2011).

Put some weight on it as it heads towards the XY point
(it'll pull you through rotation and lock you up onto an edge

Pinkie down.

Glide the rail whilst the high side arm comes over

Should be about 45 deg shoulder rotation / 30 deg hip rotation

Water slipping out from under the highside hip

Apart from the fact that this focus points helps to distract from and prevent the urge to pull on the catching side (which you have alluded to), the focus point is a nice encapsulation of 2 things -- an exquisitely precise target to keep in mind during spearing and even after that -- as well as an easily achieved visualization that really helps to keep on reaching with a long stretch, rather than merely thinking of "reaching long"