A great question that I have been exploring myself. There seems to be a tension between two ideas:

1. The recommendation (as I understand it) to wait until the spearing arm has entered, and the body has at least partially rotated onto that side, before starting to move the opposite (underwater) arm backward. The argument is that you wait for the body to rotate because it is much easier to maintain a vertical forearm with the body partly rotated onto the opposite side from the underwater (pressing) arm.

and

2. Establishing "grip" on the water early, and more importantly, getting the timing right so that the downward kick ("flick and hold") happens just as the underwater (pressing) arm passes the shoulder. This is closer to a windmill timing, but is still Front Quadrant timing as the arms are both in front of the head at the same point in the stroke.

So far, #2 seems to work better for me.

Done right, gripping the water early with the lead arm, with just a momentary pause at full spearing extension, really seems to reduce unnecessary acceleration/deceleration in the stroke, and promotes the smooth efficient delivery of power through coordination of hips, core, and weight shift. It makes it easier to get the "tippytoes" feeling with the body stretched out, especially a stretch in the hips/pelvis that makes the whole body feel longer and in the proper tension for good streamline. All of this seems to require that the lead arm be moving into its "grippy" position before the recovering arm enters the water.

I've watched the Freestyle Mastery videos in slow motion, and Terry is definitely moving his lead/underwater arm down/back BEFORE the recovering arm enters the water. It appears that his "press" where he begins to really gain propulsion from the lead arm starts at the same time the wrist of the recovering arm enters the water.

My tentative conclusion, based on this and my own recent experiments, is this:

The spearing arm should pause very briefly at full extension, and then drift gently down/back into its "grippy position. The drift involves the forearm more than the upper arm, which stays more (but not completely) still as the elbow begins to bend. During this drift, the body remains in skate position on that same side (i.e. right arm spears and drifts, body is skating on right side). This drift to the "grippy" position happens during the recovery, while the other arm is still out of the water. You need to have good balance to remain quietly in skate position as your arms both move.

As the recovering arm enters the water (up to wrist level), the body remains in skate position on the same side as the underwater/lead arm (i.e. opposite side of recovering arm). Meanwhile, the lead arm has drifted far enough that it is now just ahead of its shoulder. That puts it in the right position to begin the propulsive pressing motion just as the spearing arm hits full extension. It's important NOT to kick until this propulsive pressing motion begins--the two have to happen at once (three, really, because that's also the moment the spearing arm reaches full extension). Except that it's FOUR things happening all at once, not three:

1. The spearing arm reaches full extension

2. The other arm begins its pressing motion

3. The downward kick fires on same side as pressing arm

4. The body rotates to the new skate side.

With this timing, the pressing motion begins while the body is still rotated mostly onto the same side--i.e. right arm starts pressing while body is still in right-side skate. Do not wait to reach skate position on the new spearing side to begin the pressing motion. Instead, the pressing motion, AND the simultaneous same-side kick, assist rotation from the old skate side to the new skate side.

Long post, complicated to put into words--but that's my best understanding of how all this fits together to maintain momentum, streamline, and effective propulsion. I'd welcome any thoughts from other swimmers--thanks.

I've attached an image of Terry from Freestyle Mastery (not sure how to insert photos from my computer--anyone know how?)

You can see his underwater (right) arm is already set in position to begin the pressing motion--it has finished drifting down/back to this "grippy" position during the opposite arm's above-water recovery--both arms move at once. The elbow of the gripping arm is slightly bent (at the full extension of the spear, the elbow was straight). His body is still on his right side; he has not started to rotate yet. The spearing (left) arm has entered the water about up to its wrist.

From here, the propulsive pressing motion will begin as rotation from right side to left side happens.The pressing motion of the right arm will assist this rotation.

The right leg will kick down (flick and hold) just as the left arm reaches full extension (also simultaneous with the beginning of the right arm's propulsive pressing motion). The kick and press and rotation happen all at once. There is no waiting for the body to rotate before the pressing motion begins.

Notice Terry is not using an extreme vertical forearm. The important thing is that his arm remains locked in position through the pressing motion, preserving a large paddle shape to trap water.

Upload the photo to DropBox, Google Drive, MS OneDrive or the like and get a public link.

Here, click on the INSERT PICTURE icon. Paste in the URL.

This is my stroke too! except i find the hook in a pinkie down orientation towards the centre line then as i hook and begin to counter rotate the hand elbow forearm flip to a thumb down orientation. Gives a good lock on with a slight nudge downwards of the highside hip.

To add: the reason im pinkie down during the drop and hook is because i find a pinkie down gilde locks me onto the underwater glide rail the best and i get the best streamline speed.
i just let the oncoming water pressure push my hand and forearm inwards towards te centreline
(which will be outside the body line when in flip.

The whole thing is like a corkscrew

I found it bu keeping both arms out in front in an extreme catch up corkscrew style then brought the catch arm back in closer and lower.

Its taken alot of work and trials to get here not sure its something people without a basic feel will be able to understamd.

Pinky down on entry ,external shoulder rotation, even ever so slightly is also much better for the shoulders than a thumbs down entry and it just feels better . No one can convince me now to swim with a thumbs down entry.

Dave

I agree--it has been a long time and a lot of practice for me, too.

Steady plateaus, and then jumps forward in improvement. My last jump forward all happened when I started to focus on my 2BK timing, and the key was discovering that the kick happens as the pressing arm passes the shoulder. I had been kicking way earlier than that, and it didn't give me the whole-body connection I feel now. And it's that whole-body connection that is letting me refine my catch and pull so it's what I now think of as "front quadrant windmill style" swimming.

If any of that helps someone else reach a jump forward sooner by knowing what to look for, that would be great.

I'll try this out. I think my hand entry has been fairly neutral, neither thumb nor pinkie down. It'll be interesting to see what happens.

Its about 30-45 degrees angle pinkie down to tumb down switch / flip at catch linked to rotation
probably nearer 45 deg you sort of get your hook pinkie down and rotate around it in a cockscrew driven from the high side hip rotating down (pulled by momentum connection from recovering arm)

I'll try the 2bk at shoulder thanks

When i get the conection it is like a ratchet corkscrewing me over to the other glide rail
get some phenomenal speed out of just one switch

as bill boomer said in freestyle reimagined you need something to ride forward on in the space
ie a good posture and he says "sternum forward" head in line with the spine etc

I think 2bk should be at recovery time. I do not say your timing is wrong for you.
For me it helps to throw recovery arm. An anchor comes later. not at the same
time. I tried it and my solution is: first recovery + kick, then an anchor.

That's definitely different from what I'm doing. It also doesn't match what Terry demonstrates in the Freestyle Mastery videos at all, so it's interesting that you say it works well for you.

For me, the kick finishes just as the spearing arm reaches full extension. But by that time the anchor has been established and the propulsive pressing motion is also beginning. That timing has been pretty essential for me.

You say you kick "at recovery time." What do you mean, exactly? Can you describe when that moment happens? Are you saying you are kicking even later, after the pressing motion is finished and the arm is beginning the recovery?

I think your supposed to kick into the glide / extension (like breaststroke)
I've heard KPN say that if you can put 3 kicks into each glide you'll be flying.

Recall Bill Boomer video? His protegee throws recovery side. I lead with an elbow.
That in my brain makes something like "throw this side of the body and help it
with the kick". Spearing arm stays extended all that time. Still. I wait for anchor
long after recovery arm reaches into the water. When I'm almost on the counter
flank, I start to bend that elbow and hold the water like I hold something solid.
I keep tension and "jump" over an anchor.
I hope I'm more helpful this time.

Hey fooboo, Tom:

I think you both are describing the same thing just from different perspectives, all part of a front quadrant stroke. But I'll warn you just a bit, trying to manage all those pieces you are describing at once you will probably get most wrong and/or introduce other destabilizing movements.

You will find the best results - easiest to manage and improve is to focus primarily on high-side (recovery) arm throw from pelvis, sending its weight and momentum forward while holding a clean edge (or skate). Since kick is timed with rotation, the weight and momentum of high-side arm triggers rotation through hips to toes for whole body propulsion. Get the high-side (recovery) motion right it will 1. rebalance, maintain balance of the vessel moving below the surface and 2. the weight and momentum of the recovery arm at forward extension or finish lengthens the spine and maintains posture. Done correctly you will feel an acceleration or surge as high-side arm finishes forward - not from the low-side arm pushing water back.

Stu

KPN is really describing a six beat kick: One downward kick connected to rotation followed by two kicks on her edge for total of 3 kicks per stroke or edge - or six kicks per stroke cycle, aka the "six beat kick"

Stuart

Thanks for stepping in. I have definitely felt propulsion from the spearing arm, almost as if I am being pulled forward from the wrist of the extended arm rather than being pushed forward by the pressing arm.

I also feel a lengthening of the spine--that "tippytoes" feeling Coach Mat has described in his blog.

I wonder if your sense of thicker water has as much to do with your body/legs being in a position of less drag at that point. A kick can actually increase drag if you don't have great ankle flexibility. By starting your down-kick a moment later than the pull, maybe you have a posture of minimal drag at the beginning of the pull, and therefore your body is not being held back by drag?

That could well be a factor--I suppose that reducing drag would make the arm feel less slippage. The perception of thickness is definitely there, though, especially compared to how I was swimming 6 months ago.

Here we go fella's

https://youtu.be/wFsgNSDYzks

There is a shift of the core first towards the anchoring arm
then recovery arm drives over and onwards

i think just flinging the high side arm is not enough you gotta roll in first.

also note early karate chop exit at belly button

I'm going to have to reanalyse the boomer tape

Yes, closer imspection seems to
show a catch anchor & twist which pulls rhe recovery arm up and over

https://youtu.be/e24vIP-3b3w


which is how i thought shelly ripple was acheiving her stroke too

catch lock twist & throw

a corkscrew.

i no longer think the pelvis is pulled by the recovery arm it looks like the anchor pulls the hip over prior to recovery spear

You're putting your own traditional language filters on Coach Boomer's words and it's distorting his message.

No pull impulse on low-side arm, instead the impulse is on the high side arm "thrown from the pelvis", the swinging weight and momentum of high-side arm pulls body forward at extended finish (skate) position. Low side arm creates thick water of which you press gently back upon it. He also refers to "riding the space" forward like a cross country skier transitioning from ski to ski or "sliding forward". Boomer avoids overloaded (traditional) language such as catch, pull, glide, corkscrew, etc.

Stuart
mindbodyandswim.com

No, slow down the video and you will see hip and torso go down before arm is thrown,
it is rolled onto the "hook" / "Anchor"

What we really need to get into is the higher comcept/level of "opening & closing"

you hook, roll the torso in (on the hook) and then....the high side arm comes in.

I mentioned a few pages back that i catch pinkie down and roll through the hook
to thumb down elbow up
i get it now.

Again - disagree. These are your words and perception of movements, not Boomer's. It's completely the opposite to how you describe. If that were the case per your description, the high shoulder would be completely bound up before entry.

Stuart
mindbodyandswim.com

I can see the catch pulling the recovey arm over

https://youtu.be/e24vIP-3b3w

The hip goes down half way into the recovery

That is your perception based on your pulling filters as if the pulling arm is driving the high-side arm in. This is a drill at slow speed to rehearse the high-side impulse vaulting over the low-side arm. The high side arm is driving rotation and forward momentum as the body vaults *over* low-side arm. As speed increases in freestyle the vault happens later closer to front quadrant stroke timing.

I think Boomer's restart drill is good, connecting momentum of high-side swinging arm to the pelvis, or arm throw from the pelvis in its rhythm cycle. I use Boomer's drill to demonstrate how far the body can move forward with a single arm throw or swing with *no* pulling arm. But - using the single arm fly drill is far better. The single arm fly releases tension in the shoulder, as well as feeling/creating momentum of the swing and weight of high-side arm without the vaulting over the low-side arm. Swimmers discover an achievable method to access external forces of gravity and momentum with whole body coordination, one they can more easily integrate into their freestyle.

Those that are fixated on the pulling arm, impulse to pull, and/or their income based on catching/pulling videos/books they're peddling, they will find a way to use Boomer's words and drill(s) to support their narrative for obvious reasons.

Stuart
mindbodyandswim.com

Swam for an hour, continuous open water, tonight. Based on recent discussion on this thread, I really tried to focus on the momentum of the recovering/spearing arm pulling the body forward, and nothing else.

I will make this the focus of my swimming for the next week or so and see what happens. Tonight I noticed a few things:

1. More hip rotation.

2. A "swinging" rhythm to the stroke that felt a little new.

3. A more compact kick, with toes brushing the other foot when kicking. This seemed to produce noticeably less drag.

4. It still takes concentration to wait for the moment to kick (which for me right now is the moment the underwater arm passes the head/shoulder). When I wait long enough, the connection from spear to core to hips is very smooth and strong.

5. I really felt like I was "throwing" my arm forward, with no loss of momentum at entry.

6. Less tendency for a dropped elbow on left arm, and fewer bubbles as the hand moved back.

7. Low effort (but then I wasn't trying to go fast, either). I found myself exhaling through the nose instead of mouth as I do normally, and still going 4-5 strokes between breaths. I plan to continue the nose breathing, seemed relaxing.

So, overall, this seems like a positive focal point for me. Thanks, Coach Stuart (again).

I think my underwater arm is still doing all the things I talked about earlier in this thread, but I just wasn't putting my attention there tonight. Based on Coach Stuart's comments here, that's probably a good thing. It's not that those things aren't happening, it's just that they shouldn't be the focus. Keep the focus on the momentum of the recovering/spearing arm, and the rest will follow.

It'll be interesting to see what happens with a solid week of paying attention to the high side arm.

Great to hear Tom. "Power from the Pelvis!" (we're getting that printed on our team tees) and accessing external forces of gravity and momentum are an awesome thing in all sports

Keep up the good work!

Stuart
mindbodyandswim.com

I have been following this exchange with deep fascination. My initial question was dispatched with quite quickly -- my understanding of the expert consensus is that the freak anatomy/young indestructible Olympic swimmers who can actually get their forearms vertical early in the cycle should indeed maximize their range of motion to do so and to efficiently move this vertical forearm backwards relative to their forward progression (or to anchor in the water as the rest of the body vaults over). But those older and less flexible swimmers can still get a very efficient catch and anchor by feeling for heavy water and learning to get a non-slipping anchor, even if the forearm is not vertical.

i.e. Verticality per se (or perpendicularity either) doesn't really matter that much.

The discussion then has morphed into what seems to be much more important (and I don't mind at all, because it has been so informative) -- not pulling so much as anchoring and vaulting effortlessly over the anchor by some sort of hip driven momentum transfer to the recovering arm...the exact agreement between contributors seems to be in limbo on exactly what is happening during this action... but there is enough description of what it feels like subjectively to the swimmer that I think I get the idea of what to feel for.

Tom, when you noticed

1) More hip rotation

what exactly do you mean? In the context of what CoachStuart was talking about did you mean that the rotating power seemed to come from a hip drive? And this momentum was transmitted to the outwardly swinging recovering arm and eventually to the whole forward recovery of the arm and mail-slot entry and spear. Or did you mean that the hip was actually rotation more than the shoulders (which would mean, I would think, that there was some uncoupling, meaning the intervening section of trunk torqued passively to allow less shoulder rotation. Or possibly the shoulders rotated as much but slightly out of phase with the hip rotation).

It will always be in limbo, since people want different things. :)
I found this vertical forearm to be important. Spite inner intention to pull,
I fight it and do not pull. I wait right time to anchor.
The main point is WHEN to anchor. That differs in our posts.
Best regards.

Opening & Closing.......

Do we open the back at the beginning of recovery and close the back / shoulders (roll in) towards entry?

I got it form the shaw method video where he talks about opening the back and closing up for entry.

Played about with it in the pool yesterday there is something in it, i certainly didnt enjoy staying "open" all the way to entry!

try it dryland with the swinging recovery
At the start you open up the back
and towards the end you turtle in making catch and spear.
Seems to give a good catch

keeps the arms well inside the scapular plane too (once above shoulder height)

Shaw method opening & closing for info:

https://youtu.be/Ks9CWnBGSuM