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-   -   How to kick, when to kick (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9124)

Zenturtle 03-29-2017 08:58 PM

Some additional possible causes for leg sinking.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w7ETlhaMsEk

personally I found the reduced hiprotation and increased shoulder rotation has improved balance a bit too. Hips overrotated and kicking to the side is not helping balance.(exagerating to make the point clear)

novaswimmer 03-30-2017 12:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 62190)
I probably have heard this from you before, but as someone who rarely encounters anyone with as dense lower body as myself, I am always eager to compare notes.

I find that my heavy legs situation seems to contribute to my lack of balance. As a result I haven't focused on getting good balance as much as I should have. Somewhat belatedly I am finally learning better balance, and it really helps to compensate for lack of leg buoyancy.

When I achieve good horizontal balance, as a consequence my head goes down, and it becomes a real technical problem to get air smoothly with a minimum of bobbing or excessive rotation. Rather than being able to breath with my face facing 90 degrees to the side (like "normal" people), I find it's more like 120 or 135 degrees from 0 degrees straight down, despite all attempts to breath with half the face covered, to breathe with only half the mouth out of the water, to breathe out of the trough of the wave created by your head, etc, etc. I also struggle in achieving the right balance between the slow trickle of air released out of the nose for relaxation, and keeping in enough air above the diaphragm between breaths to avoid total trunk sinkage. (BTW, I should emphasize that my excessive face rotation is purely to reach the surface to get air; I am trying to minimize any extra rotation or mouth elevation more than barely enough to get air, and even then I often fail to get air. My recovery elbow is not stacked above my body, and I make it a point to have my fingers skimming the surface or only just above the surface in a wide arced recovery).

What happens to you, and how do you cope?

I'm right there with you sclim! It's a real b@#$tch being slim and dense and have a poor 'aquatic signature'. I also have a small lung capacity, so have less of a 'buoy' than others as well. I'm convinced that is why Boomer did his 'aquatic signature' analysis of swimmers to help them find a stroke or event that fits their body type (among other things). He got it. And if you look at most people who swim the English Channel, what is their body type? They look like seals with fairly even fat distribution. Have you ever seen a skinny Channel swimmer?

Breathing has never come easy to me. I aim to swim about a mile when I get to swim these days, and going slowly is the best way to do that. I'm sure I rotate my head more than 90 degrees to get air. But it compromises my streamline a bit. I use a hybrid 2 / 6 beat kick with the down-kick that assists rotation being the strongest and the other two kicks being having much less amplitude. But i feel this kick helps to keep my hips higher. I am improving over time, but may never achieve even average speed because of my inherent built-in drag.

I practice front-quadrant swimming. All helps to a degree I guess. I do find, for me, that a slow trickle of air actually helps me stay more horizontal, than if I were to hold more air in. But i have to plan my exhale and breath very carefully so that I empty my lungs about 80% just before turning my head to breath, and exhale the last bit forcefully AS I TURN, to prevent water coming in my mouth. This usually works.

Believe it or not, I tend to breathe easier in water when I close my eyes. I can feel the water move down across my face as I rotate my head and then breathe at just the right moment. Unfortunately I usually have to share a lane with someone, so I can't keep my eyes closed for very long!

notatall 03-30-2017 03:16 PM

Nova [QUOTE= I could never do that.




I can make it, almost every time. For only horizontal balance I can share my experience.
Through some practice, I’ve realized that the difficulty of making the balance comes from the human nature. You need to go against it when seeking front-to-back balance at the water surface. At the beginning, you are lengthening whole your body like a stick, with your arms and legs straight. Besides of having proper head position, you need to bring your hip up (down your belly), then your leg up. The water will help you float horizontally.(Now, your body is still hard). After your balance is made by the water, relax all “parts” of your body without compromising the position you already have too much. Then you will float with no motion.
This method can work for me, I hope it can work for you.

WFEGb 03-31-2017 01:26 AM

Hello notatall,

think you pointed out one of the "secrets" of high hip-legs: Relaxation (Our heads are more or less of the same density and it should feel relaxed "weightless" all the time, even when turning to breathe...) I didn't find a swimmer who could not hold a relaxed SG for 2sec before the legs start to sink, and two seconds is longer than a our usual SR...

Every movement of the arms (especially in FQ) should happen on it's individual wide "rail-tracks" as relaxed as possible. Missing the tracks will result in sinking most times... or to uncontrolled movements avoiding that...

Terry writes you may use your lead-arm as trim tab (... if it's really necessary).

Don't use your kick for pushing legs up. Just use it as support for your rotation and spear. If tuned right it will result in a feeling as horizontal, straight, long screw doing an eighth (or quarter) turn... And your legs should stay parallel to surface by itself...

Best regards,
Werner

sclim 03-31-2017 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novaswimmer (Post 62194)
I'm right there with you sclim! It's a real b@#$tch being slim and dense and have a poor 'aquatic signature'. I also have a small lung capacity, so have less of a 'buoy' than others as well. I'm convinced that is why Boomer did his 'aquatic signature' analysis of swimmers to help them find a stroke or event that fits their body type (among other things). He got it. And if you look at most people who swim the English Channel, what is their body type? They look like seals with fairly even fat distribution. Have you ever seen a skinny Channel swimmer?

Breathing has never come easy to me. I aim to swim about a mile when I get to swim these days, and going slowly is the best way to do that. I'm sure I rotate my head more than 90 degrees to get air. But it compromises my streamline a bit. I use a hybrid 2 / 6 beat kick with the down-kick that assists rotation being the strongest and the other two kicks being having much less amplitude. But i feel this kick helps to keep my hips higher. I am improving over time, but may never achieve even average speed because of my inherent built-in drag.

I practice front-quadrant swimming. All helps to a degree I guess. I do find, for me, that a slow trickle of air actually helps me stay more horizontal, than if I were to hold more air in. But i have to plan my exhale and breath very carefully so that I empty my lungs about 80% just before turning my head to breath, and exhale the last bit forcefully AS I TURN, to prevent water coming in my mouth. This usually works.

Believe it or not, I tend to breathe easier in water when I close my eyes. I can feel the water move down across my face as I rotate my head and then breathe at just the right moment. Unfortunately I usually have to share a lane with someone, so I can't keep my eyes closed for very long!

It's good to know one is not all alone in this world lol!

As it turns out I have a large lung capacity relative to my small body size, and a good thing too, as it makes a huge difference as to how fast I sink (yes, I still sink). But it turns out this is also a factor for people of "normal" buoyancy, too. See Coach Stuart McDougal's post on this topic, and particularly his reference to Mandy McDougal's SwimVice video, where she visibly drops a couple of inches when she exhales too much!

http://www.totalimmersion.net/blog/breathing-overrated/

Incidentally, I was actually searching for Mandy's Video when I found Coach Stuart's post, so I'm glad to have this thorough treatment of the subject which I will now review in depth myself.

notatall 04-21-2017 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 62208)
Hello notatall,

think you pointed out one of the "secrets" of high hip-legs: Relaxation (Our heads are more or less of the same density and it should feel relaxed "weightless" all the time, even when turning to breathe...) I didn't find a swimmer who could not hold a relaxed SG for 2sec before the legs start to sink, and two seconds is longer than a our usual SR...

Every movement of the arms (especially in FQ) should happen on it's individual wide "rail-tracks" as relaxed as possible. Missing the tracks will result in sinking most times... or to uncontrolled movements avoiding that...

Terry writes you may use your lead-arm as trim tab (... if it's really necessary).

Don't use your kick for pushing legs up. Just use it as support for your rotation and spear. If tuned right it will result in a feeling as horizontal, straight, long screw doing an eighth (or quarter) turn... And your legs should stay parallel to surface by itself...

Best regards,
Werner

Werner
Thank you, Werner. But I still donít know what SQ, FQ or SG stand for. I donít read anything except something said in the forum. Anyway, your words are very enlightening. Yes, kicking is not used to push legs up only. Like Coarch Stuartís great metaphor ďThing of your legs as the handles and your lungs as wheel of wheelbarrow.Ē I think Kicks must be something of importance to generate my core power. The problem is that kicks consume a lot of efforts, and people said swimming is a syncing thing. My question is what the kick should be timed with and when should I start kicking and which leg I should kick on.
I am not young, I hope everything is economical. Thank you again.

borate 04-21-2017 05:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notatall (Post 62527)
My question is what the kick should be timed with and when should I start kicking and which leg I should kick on.

The two-beat kick advocated by TI is more for balance than propulsion. It's favored for distance events, as it minimizes leg muscle effort.

Kick down with the opposing leg at about the time the hand enters the water, as demonstrated in this classic clip. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

The kick helps to propel the body into a streamlined position.

Tom Pamperin 04-21-2017 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by notatall (Post 62527)
Werner
Thank you, Werner. But I still donít know what SQ, FQ or SG stand for.

I think you mean "SR" and not "SQ" in Werner's post.

SR = stroke rate

FQ = front quadrant swimming (i.e. keeping lead arm patient and not starting to pull until the other arm is almost ready to enter the water; that way you have the weight of both arms in front of your body for part of the stroke)

SG = Superman Glide drill, which is pushing off in balance on your stomach with arms outstretched to spear point

bujanglokal 04-22-2017 02:55 AM

So efficient swimming equation = streamline pose + FQ + 2BK + EVF (early vertical forearm) ? 😎

notatall 04-22-2017 11:28 AM

Thank Borate and Tom for your attention to my questions. I am happy today. I myself have proved your sayings to be true. Kicking with the right leg at the right time is big help for my rotation, making my strokes a little bit more efficient. I think I can get it better soon.


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