[quote=Danny;66241]i think he means not having the other arm recovering

see for me both arms work together through the shoulders
the lowside arm is anchoring with shoulder dropping whilst the high side arm shoulder is elevating

thats where the connection is

its called float & paddle

"Surfing the recovery weight" i think he means

If TI finds managing the weight of the recovering arm so important, than I am curious what the TI opinion is about the `weight on catch` idea.

There is an interestng thread about that very subject close by wink wink .-)

well.. could be the case.... Let the coach speak for himself

& both arms out over the front a'la shelly ripple style

feathering out and returning to the front to keep the weight forward not dropping back

arms as balancing tools first (richard quick)

also pulls the hip along with it as high side arm nears shoulder level

this all requires a semi straight arm recovery like butterfly with a butterfly like exit at 5 & 7 pm

Ooops sorry dude.

[quote=Mushroomfloat;66242]Having said that i have seen single arm drill done with elevating the shoulder of the non working arm in a kind of shrug to give the same result as if the high side arm was present

You understand of course that the "pull" will create bounce poorly executed through driving arm frowards incorrectly?

[quote=Zenturtle;66235]We exert pressure to drive forwards
where do we exert pressure?

Pull too soon
when is it too soon? Lets say you still use front quadrant timing. Is it too soon if you are still at the edge of front quadrant timing?

What do you mean by "at the edge of"? You are an engneer, you understand coupling motions? Front Quadrant means what? What is the purpose of "Front Quadrant"? Do you know? What does it achieve and how? Let's try and explore and understand these terms.
We are seeking to remain as streamlined as possible between the strokes whiuls creating coupling motuoins through combing catch, wieght shift and kick (whether 2 beat, 4 beat or 6 beat)

Yeah by having no weight on it from the absent high side arm?

(Some elevate the highside shoulder to put weight on the low side arm as it anchors

[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66255]Connection not coupling (coupling is shoulder driven or straight arm)
I got told by Coach Dougal

The recovering arm balances the body and creates forwards momentum through ballistic energy forwards which then is released and with gravity and core and shoulder forces drive forwards with the high side creating momentum and force forwards rather than focussing on the very limiting low side force of the pull. Again please explore coupling motions to undertand this better or read this article here I wrote t for Outdoor Swimmer magazine which touches on it without going into too much detail:
https://www.facebook.com/TICoachJame...type=3&theater

I really think it would be great for you to check in with Swim Fanatstic in the Netherhlands who can surely help you understand TI better and help your swimming a lot as you obviously are a deep thinker about swimming
https://www.swimfantastic.com/

I was summoned?! Hello everyone!! So a thread about one-armed swimming...excellent. I do recall that thread you mention Danny, and I'll see if I can find it. I always enjoyed reading Charles' thoughts.

I still use and enjoy 1 armed swimming for a variety of lessons, including catch as well as breathing. The bobbing can't be avoided because of the mass of the arm coming out of the water. It could be minimized with a "better" catch, but it's going to happen no mater how you do it. Fins or a strong kick could change your forward trajectory so it's lower amplitude, as would adding 1 arm in front.

For breathing I use the 1 armed stroke WITH the natural bob that occurs to help teach patience & stability, and an expectation of air appearing at your face without effort. By combining breathing to the stroking arm as well as away from the stroking arm, the drill emphasizes the beginning and the ending of the breathing opportunity. Each variation emphasizes a different part of the timing and opportunity specifically because there is a bob.

Breathing towards the stroking arm requires the chin to rotate with the shoulder with no delay and as the stroke underwater progresses and the body rotates, the air is immediately right there at the shoulder. During recovery the body quickly sinks so if you didn't get air at that moment you're going to struggle.

On the opposite side, you need to pause in skate, while the chin is rotated towards the top shoulder, which is the non stroking arm. During this pause the body needs to be stabilized and the mindpatient, and as the body bobs back up to the surface somewhat later in this cycle, magically air appears at the face.

In full stroke swimming then, one can combine that learning so that the breath starts early enough and lasts long enough to get plenty of air without struggle.

So lots of good uses in my opinion.

The last clinic I taught with Terry was last summer in Yellow Springs, OH with his sister Pegeen. It was a 1 day condensed clinic and Terry used 1 armed breathing in exactly the way I described above.

So there's no trouble with the Bob in his stroke. he knew it was there and used it for several good teaching points. if the observer doesn't see the value or know the teaching points, it doesn't mean he's drilling poorly, just that the viewer needs to keep remaining open to new learning possibilities.

For full disclosure, I am no longer a TI coach, but remain fond of all that Terry taught me, and of the TI systematic approach.

[quote=Mushroomfloat;66257]Coupling is combining forces together. No need for straight arm

Hello Suzanne we miss you and I hope all is good with you.

For breathing my best drill is three strokes to skate with a breath and then three more to a breath the other side making sure we get a nice head turn and hit a great skate position. You can do this for 25 to 50 metres or more. This helps swimmers reach the breath with extended arm. I have not had any positive eperinces with one armed freestyle drills. YMMV.

best

james

"our old favourites"? Please explain "our"

[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66260]Well i must find the thread and revist the wring information i was given.

This thread/post is hard to follow, scattered all over the place, but will do my best to answer your questions:

First though, as a mechanical engineer, you post subjective material to support an argument the doesn't seem to exist. Going back to capturing stills of a TI coach without posting the entire video is taken out of context to cherry pick flaws, that are not necessarily flaws in full context.

Single arm fly, you are welcome to come out to masters, see demos from the swimmers, watch and discover. You do need to know elements of the fly or can do the fly to some level, so not for the novice.

I didn't assume connection with swimsmooth, I thought you were a big Taormina fan promoting her wares and videos on this forum, both you and shroom. But UNCO is an SS characterization of a single arm drill that you seem to love too, it's a single arm drill that is not owned by any program. But it's fair to say, you rarely if ever promote anything TI, and often promote others at the expense of TI which again is not the objective engineer. You present yourself as judge and spokesperson for TI - you are not.

Good to know you are from the Netherlands, we have a couple of incredible TI coaches there that could really help you find your way, minimize your confusion and over thinking of details and complexities in freestyle (back, fly, breast too).

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

So TI is a Coupling stroke then glad thats been clarified by Coach James

Can't see how you can have a loose and relaxed recovery arm in a coupled stroke but there you go.

Suzanne! What a wonderful surprise! Haven't heard from you in a very long time...often wondered how you were doing. Do you ever hear anything from Charles? He too seems to have disappeared off the face of the earth (or at least off of this forum...)

Best regards,

Danny

Hi Suzanne, hope you are being well (and still swimming :-) )

Nice detailed descriptions. Can only roughly agree with that.
Dont expects too see you back often on this forum, busy with your own coaching stuff I guess.
Still have good memories about times on the forum with you and Charles.
The times with Ian where a bit before I started swimming, and that where really the times of heated discussions between swimcoaches and different views on how to swim I believe.
Those times are gone. Cant go on about the same subjects for ever also haha.

Anyway, wish you all the best with your future plans!

Thanks Suzanne
 

Have missed your posts and glad that life is treating you well. Wishing you a good life.

Thank you Grant, life is good! I can always be reached through either one of the links in my sig line.

Yes those were great times! I believe Charles has moved away from swimming and triathlon and is now training dogs, which ironically I am as well! (just 1 dog... instagram @mydailyfig )

I always appreciate your vast library of links to swim videos, and your stirring conversation...makes me think which is good.

Thanks Danny, life always seems to get busier and less time for forum stuff. I was in contact with Charles a few months ago and he is now doing dog training! Don't see him post much on facebook but he seems happy.

Thanks, nice hearing from all of you

[quote=Mushroomfloat;66257]Well Coach Dougal got that wrong sorry.

Coupling motions are created through combining forces of rotation, catch and kick. It's pretty basic physics. Think "tug of war". Pull together. Timing is everything. Straight arm is irrelevant. Wow this forum is rife with disinformation about TI. Have any of you actually ever attended a workshop or TI coaching session?

Book a session with a TI Coach and find out how!

[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66286]I base my opininon on the youtube videos I see from TI swimmers.
I agree with your discription of right timing, but dont see it in all those swimmers.
I also agree that the recovering shoulder and arm dont need to be tightly connected to have benefit from it.
Its more how you throw that weight around with the rest of your body and catch the weight again when it falls in the water.
Iits mostle the impuls from kick and hip nudge to start the acceleration of furher upwards bodyparts which gives an impression like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RrX2yTGJ6N0

in the sense that there is a motion train running from rear to front.Its all connected with a small timeshift.

TI swimmers I see often swim like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0LnbyjOyEQ8
shift right/shift left/shift right/shift left. Because of the emphasis on snappy shifts and turning hips and shoulders as one unit.

Dont take these examples too literally, its an impression how the style comes accross often.
I am not tallking about Shinji here.

[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66286]Where did this come from? Shroom talking about me again and taking out of context, "Coach Dougal"? I recall the coupling vs connection language in a post somewhere but "coupling" was in the context of windmill stroke, shoulders are coupled together. And "connection" each arm moves independently *connected* through the core in whole body movement.

Btw, MF. What do we know about you, your swim background, where you from (Perth?), coaching experience, favorite places you swim, etc. Remaining anonymous given the amount of time you spend daily on the TI forum doesn't help your credibility.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

[quote=CoachStuartMcDougal;66289]Yes i agree
I'm making the point that Coupling usually refers to coupling the arms together through the upper back
ie shoulder driven / kayak or windmill straight arm


I'am based in hampshire England i swim at Bitterne leisure centre & The Quays most week nights.

I'm not a coach, just interested in swimming and like to study, had some great insights here.

I'm certainly not an SS troll! from Perth! lol

I believe in TI and the concepts, i was reading a thread from 2006 on US masters forum earlier

KeizanSwimmer - Terry?

some real insights about antagonist v agonist muscles working oposite each other (turning on & off)

and the speed of the recovery arm being a key etc

I was enjoying shooting the breeze with ZenTurtle but i think we ventured into "arm coupling" territory and went down the wrong track towards shoulder driven etc

i now realise having watched a video of Terry coaching a student that a strong & stable lowside shouldeblade and a relaxed & mobile highside shoulder blade is prefered, as opposed to linking both shoulder blades across the upper back (which takes one down the path of coupled strokes like kayak & windmill straight arm)

It can work also with a relaxed highside shoulderblade.
The very basic idea is throwing yourself from one ancherpoint to the next, bracing yourself through your body, from foundation points in leg and anchoring arm.
The hip feels like the traffic manager in this whole process. Its at the very front of initiating, but has to transfer its energy after a split second to the upperbody. (depends on strokerate)

When you go shoulder driven, the same principle more or less apllies, but its more focussed on the upperbody, and the connection of arms becomes more noticable. the connection with kick and hip is still there, but more like small initiators and stabilizers.

Watch how her legs trail and stabilize like a streamlined and toned tail, while the front above the waist acts as a power generator.
The front is not disconnected form the rear, but the focus and energy is shifted more toward it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4LDbps7O5Ps

looks to me she still has a pretty relaxed shoulder on the recovering side. Arm is almost relaxed, thrown over like a weight.
You have to shape the arm to get a clean entry though at the front half of the recovery circle. Bringing that shoulder forward to the ear and switching to a stable blade when the arms extends in the water is crucial to be able to morph into a good catch anchor.
If you just keep it relaxed, you going to enter shoulder first, slap the arm on the water next. thats a very relaxed way to swim, and if you let the arm shape slowly underwater dusing the first part and only use the push part, you still can swim pretty comfortable this way.
Sharon van Rouwendaal and Ryomi Kromowidjojo have a bit of this action in their swim , but still are able to shape the catch well.

sorry this is not all TI. Mush and I are just interested in any style of swiming.

The same swimmer swims also like this
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zqmreJUGm7I
A rather differnt role of the recovering arm. A rather different style.
THis are her first TI experiments it seems
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VS-2yhLNoD8

Hello ZT,

just a remark, neither related to swimming nor to TI :-)


An impressive video, didn't see it before; but the impressive thing (for me) is, the pendulums are neither coupled nor connected, each one seperated, and each one's frequenzy is determined by the length only(!)... But I know, you know that... OK, their coupling is the connection physics offers to them...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Because sometimes I'm going lost (in translation?) when trying to follow some threads. Then I think about a post from Haschu33 in 2012. A look at the last paragraphs will not hurt... Not only to ZT(!)... Yes I'm touching my own nose too...

KaizenSwimmer

October 17th, 2006, 09:11 AM

I'm just not ready to buy the statement that the "power is coming from the hips" as a literal statement.

It's probably best not to take that statement -- or many others -- as literal. Doing so hems you in to narrow, formalistic interpretations which are of interest more as intellectual exercises than as a way of changing someone's stroke for the better.

"Power from the hips" has been a "buzz phrase" in swimming since around 1990. I used it regularly myself 10-15 years ago, but have since changed the language I emphasize - for two reasons:
1) Strictly speaking, there isn't enough muscle in the hips to actually generate power -- the hips act more of a "force-coupler" (I hope some engineer doesn't take me to task for misusing this term...but I trust you know what I mean), the action of which can connect a sizeable amount of mass - and muscle - in the upper torso with that in the lower torso.
2) Where, exactly, are the hips? Any two people might interpret differently. Since my aim is to get people to swim more "with the body" -- and less with the arms and legs -- I've opted for phrases that encourage "broader thinking."*
E.G. For freestyle, my preferred term is "draw energy from the high side." Which means to shift your consciousness away from pushing water back --the pulling arm is always on the low side of your body -- to spearing-forward with the entering arm, while "holding on to your place in the water" with the other. (For backstroke that formulation doesn't work as well since there's not as much overlap between the two arms so we use different phrases to achieve a similar effect - one of which refers to the hips.) Why the high side? Because gravity working on mass will magnify any action taken on that side. If you focus on the low side you're limited to using whatever muscle is available.

For fly and breast, I've used similar language centered around the idea that when you want to increase the power of your movements, drive your chest down more powerfully as you land, When you want to increase the ratedo it by moving your midsection (chest-hip rocking action) faster, rather than moving your arms and legs faster.*

In the end, any phrase or label you choose is inherently imperfect, subject as it is to interpretation, then translation from language center to neuromuscular control to movement, with countless opportunities for error.

Any phrase I write or speak is one born of a process:
1) experiment until I find the movements or emphases that feel better or produce measurable (stroke count, swim golf score, effort level at a given speed, etc.) improvement.
2) create vocabularly that describes my personalexperience of that movement.
3) test that language with students.
4) drop words or phrases that don't resonate; opt for those that "click" with the most people.*

Do they necessarily work well for everyone? No. When they don't I try another. Far more preferable are: (1) "problem-solving exercises" that allowing them to make discoveries themselves, and (2) visual communication, a demonstration or video. But writing or speaking limits what's available to mainly language.

In any case, none of this is an idle exercise. I make these choices all day, every day. Yesterday as a case in point:

From 10am to 3pm I did a final edit on a butterfly video due for release next month, during which I was focused on making sure that every carefully considered word I spoke on the soundtrack was synchronized with a movement sequence so each would reinforce the other.

From 4:30 to 5:30 I worked with a 42 y.o. woman who went 23.9 for 50 Free in HS 25 years ago and is returning to competitive swimming after a long hiatus, hoping to swim well in sprints as well as be competitive in USMS LD events. After video analysis, we spent most of the hour on exercises designed to help her slow her catch enough to let the core body come into position to power the stroke. We were working in an Endless Pool and the measure of "success" was whether she could slow her Stroke Rate (measured by timing 10 strokes) while swimming in a current of constant velocity, while she studied the extension, catch and first third of her stroke in the bottom mirror. The first couple of focal points we tried didn't quite click. The third one did -- at which point I asked her how she would describe the experience.

From 6-8 pm I swam with, and coached, a group of 12 yo's on the age group team we coach in New Paltz. After having them attempt to swim 3 descending 100s and seeing that every one of them went slower on #2 than on #1 -- even after I emphasized they should swim easily on #1, I stopped the set and asked them why they went slower. "I got tired." I asked why. "I'm not in shape." So I had them all run from the wall to the backstroke flags and back to experience resistance. We then talked about how resistance is probably the main thing making them tired. I had them watch me swim halfway down and back, then comment on what they saw me do that they thought might reduce resistance. Then we swam a short ladder set 25+50+75+100. My only instruction was to try to imitate one thing they observed me do and think about how their swimming felt different as a result. After the 25 I asked them to describe what felt different. "Smoother, longer, easier." Then we did the 50, after which I asked them to grade themselves on the two laps. Mostly they gave themselves an A on the 1st 25 and a B on the 2nd. So we focused on the idea that their job on the 75 was to try to stay as close to the feeling they achieved on the first lap as possible. Etc.

This is getting very long, but my hope is to make the case that improving your swimming is an organic process, the goal of which is to figure out the movements that work best, develop a system that helps you distinguish between ineffective and effective movements and then try to use effective movements as consistently as possible in training. Language is one tool, and certainly the least effective, in that process.*

While things I've written have, for instance, caused "spirited" debate over what position your head should be in, the non-negotiable position for it is "engaged in thinking about your stroke."

KaizenSwimmer

September 30th, 2006, 08:18 AM

Having read that you want to pierce the water, upon entry, I have attempted to form a straight line from finger tips to elbow. My purpose was to enter the water cleanly.
The end result was less than pleasant. My arms always tensed up <snip>*

I observed that the elite freestylers had more of a relaxed entry. So relaxed that there appears to be a slight bend at the wrist, a bend that makes the wrist looks limp, not straight and rigid.

Once again, you've made an important observation. This one at a much subtler level. Elite athletes in all sports combine two qualities in their movements that are far less likely to be seen in the movements of "average" athletes.

One is high level mechanics. Each of your previous posts referred to this area. The other is something that could fairly be described as "artistry" which is far subtler but no less important. Coaches have often described artistry in great swimmers with the term "feel of the water."

It's never been a particularly well-defined term - most definitions have focused on the ability to discriminate between areas of high pressure -- "quiet water" which affords a "good grip" and areas of low pressure or turbulence which cause one's stroke to slip.

But in watching athletes like Tracy Caulkins, Alex Popov, Michael Phelps and Katie Hoff over the years, with a level of interest that borders on wonderment, I've seen they do so much more than just "feel" the water. Where a lesser athlete will often overpower the water or swim in such a way that the effort far exceeds the results, the great athletes never do it. They apply just the right amount of power at just the right moment to get the maximum result.

**** They also are better than the rest of us at knowing which muscles to "turn off" while others fire up. Both because an absence of tension in antagonist muscles better accommodates the action of the agonist, and because having non-productive muscles in a state of tension wastes energy.*******

25 years ago I spent countless hours watching videos of elite swimmers of that era - the Aquaforum series on all the strokes produced by Don Gambril. Tracy Caulkins - the Katie Hoff of the time, but even better (she had American or World records in every stroke and discipline) was featured on every stroke. On the Backstroke tape for instance, the contrast between Betsy Mitchell and Tracy was stunning. Betsy held the WR in 200M at the time, was a very powerful athlete and her pull was almost brutal in its power. Just grabbed the water and muscled it straight back. Tracy held the AR in 200 yds and was slender and supple. Her underwater stroke was a thing of beauty in the way her hands were highly active, constantly making minute adjustments in pitch to control each molecule of water completely.

Popov's video - and watching in real life - displayed a remarkable capacity to keep his recovery and entry utterly relaxed at high speed, but then to fire up those muscles as soon as his hand was in position to create traction.

Phelps when swimming fly lands far more softly than other swimmers.

When Natalie Coughlin broke the American record in 100 Back, going 49.9, the other 7 swimmers in that NCAA final were all an unheard of 3 seconds or more behind her when she touched the wall. And yet the water in her lane was barely disturbed, while the water in theirs was churned up.

I could go on and on. While elite swimmers display that kind of artistry instinctively, swimmers like you and I can learn it, but only if we recognize it as beneficial and explicitly pursue it. And that pursuit is a lifelong thing.

Striking a balance between your goal of piercing the water -- which requires you to shape your body to cut through the smallest possible hole in the water -- and avoiding unproductive tension, can be quite a challenge. Particularly because swimming in a highly conscious way -- which is essential when making subtle changes in technique -- often leads to some level of tension in the affected muscles and it take some time to learn to let that go. But keep working on it.

Mushroom thank you for bringing Terry back to us in the present! An you post a link to that?

Here you go, good thread
http://forums.usms.org/archive/index.php/t-6738.html

What gets my attention, is that in those days. TI wasnt supressing so much the importance of a good catch and pull technique.

Terry saved this article on his hard drive because it was one of the best articles he had read,
http://www.swimmingworldmagazine.com...7-01st_art.asp

and it describes the aussies strokes. Especially Thopes stroke.(and the guy also came up with the idea of the gymnast iron cross, just like I did, watching elites strokes, hehe)

The patient catch idea is not derived from doing nothing in front, just taking the time to set up your catch and move the arm in a high drag position that it can be locked and then the big muscles can take the locked paddle back.
With a propulsive kick its easier to take your time because the deceleration is less while you set up your catch.
NO mystical talk about being pulled forward by the recovering arm and also less emhasis on the magical superforce from the hips.
Terrys detailed descriptions make sense and are easy to follow in this thread. Nothing fancy, its just about good swimming.

its the same with Haschu33 s comments. We are going in circles and the same questions keep reapperaing.
Completley understands hasschu33 s opinion. we are still waiting for the answer where the propulsion is coming from if it isnt from pushing water back somewhere.
(but at the same time agree that focussing on having an anchor with the low side and throwing the high side forward from there is a good and helpfull mental image)

Who said this?

Then maybe we can get back to the question of the stroke. Your last comment inferred that I suggested "all you have to do is weight shift." My post was quite clear that you have to achieve traction with hand and forearm first.

Answer: Terry.

Yes but the key point i took away was one of not putting focus on lowside as all thas available there is muscle power but switch focus to highside where gravity augments any movement from here.

"Strong and stable shoulderblade on the lowside,relaxed and mobile shoulderblade on the highside"

Obv this is extreme statue of liberty

stratcoupling across the upper back and we enter "float & paddle" ie kayak windmill etc

Hey Suzanne! My mentor and coach!!

You back? Or better said, welcome back! What brings you back? Coming back to TI? You still coaching and how are you doing?

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com