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Hello Dave,
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Best regards, Werner |
When it comes to the 2 beat I try to not think too much and just let core rhythms move it along .When I reach forward I just let my leg my leg upbeat at the same time so at so my leg is at the highest point with a stretched out feeling the same time my hand reaches full spear extension. Then the arm pulls and the downbeat happens .
Don't think ...feel Dave |
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I will spend some time focusing on the recovering arm (while trying to keep my downside elbow up) and I'll work at this for a while. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for all the good info! |
Hello Dave,
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Best regards, Werner |
I have my thoughts about `errors` in the stroke from the statically balanced swimmers.
lets say we have 2 swimmers. -Swimmer A is statically balanced, that is, the swimmers does float horizontally without any energy input, except some postural toning. -Swimmer B is statically unbalanced. Even with maximal adaptions regarding the posture, the legs still sink. This is a basic unbalance thats always there and needs special measures to counteract. The unbalanced swimmer has to make certain adaptations to the stroke to become balanced. Its by no means certain that these adaptations, that the unbalanced swimmer has to make, are advantagous for the statically balanced swimmer. In theory they even can be counterproductive, because they are measures to solve a problem that doesnt exist, and therefore non efficient for the statically balanced swimmer. Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`. The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way. That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity. |
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Like trying to stick rigidly to SoL when F & P would be more optimal / efficient? Sounds like my troube now i can quantify it. |
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There is no reason to take into account non-balanced swimming.
More and more, personally, I appreciate recovery arm weight tip. Head position and patient leading arm add to it. What differ for me is an anchor. I still feel it is important part of forward movement. |
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Young Phelps uses a combination of twisting, bending and undulation to get his body past his anchoring left arm. He goes through the water more in one line now, but still the same basic movement pattern is there. Watch his spine and imagine how his skeleton moves. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pziUBplSIK0 Thorpe has a lot of shoulder twist (and extension) relative to hip rotation. Different folks, different strokes. |
Hello ZT,
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Love the similarity to Feynman's Principle of Smallest Effect, finding the ideal path (of infinity much) by tiny variation on each possible. (Think navis work the same way, but with finally many ways...)... And that's nearly Kaizen... Best regards, Werner |
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There are both primal adaptations and intentional adaptations. In Shelly T’s case there are more primal. 1. Head high, tense shoulders, arched back. Tense shoulders arched back are consequence of high head looking forward. 2. Exentending high side arm flat, pressure is all on already tense shoulder and triggers low side arm to rotate body all from the shoulder of low side (pulling) arm. 3. Low side arm bounces off the hip at exit changes to flat trajectory swinging arm low from shoulder due to lack of rotation, causes lateral spine twist, “core soft”. 1, 2, & 3 are primal adaptations and there are some obvious opportunities. 1, 2, & 3 would cause the swimmer with a low aquatic profile hips to drop a foot or more that would only add to the primal coping responses to imbalance. I’m guessing that Shelly T’s shoulders (especially left shoulder) and lower back are torched after a 10k or even a 5k. Due to Shelly T’s short wingspan, arm to torso weight is low, difficult to rotate body enough. She needs at least 10 deg more rotation to get arm in scapular plane to keep exiting arm on the same trajectory so she doesn’t have to swing arm low from tense shoulder. Opportunities would/could be 1. Align head/spine - good posture, in line axis allows body to rotate easily. 2. Slice in recovery arm below the lungs. This will a. take pressure off the shoulder, b. access the lats, c. drive more rotation. 3. Soften legs/hips to allow hips to rotate/drive through the legs like a whip to assist in rotation. Kinetic energy doesn’t flow through a rigid leg and tense hip. 4. Release all tension in shoulder at exit, arm should easily launch out of water high without recruiting the shoulder. 1 - 4 are necessary for the low profile swimmer too to maintain balance and swim from the core (not shoulders) in whole body coordinated movement. 1 - 4 are intentional movements and fall under improving ‘skills’ - kaizen. Although the priorities may be different for the high and low profile swimmers, the principles remain the same. Stu MindBodyAndSwim.com |
To further illustrate what Stu is saying below. Here is another video of me getting some great tips form the master!. Shows well how the faults of my high side arm cause the issues with my low side arm.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ6TB9gqc70 I have worked hard at correcting this and have seen some good results. In fact after doing an asymmetric TT exercise this week I then switched off the TT and set out to do a brisk 100 and ending up breaking my PB doing a 1:25 100 yards!! Quote:
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Hello Stuart,
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Best regards, Werner PS: BTW was not clear to me, that ZT's statement related strongly to ST's style. Obviously got lost in this thread once more... but so could savour your well founded analysis. Great! |
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Has anyone else here done the 2BK that way, with no upkick? It's in the Freestyle Mastery videos, but I managed to discover it for myself before seeing it there. |
Hello Tom,
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When translating Terry's chapter about 2BK in 2.0 Mastery I stumbled over two of his remarks: - Using the kick for support of rotation and forward speed same time. This till now happens only at a (day dependent) special SR. Lower, it supports rotation; faster it supports spear and reach forward. Trying a later kick at lower SR or vice versa leads to an uncomfortable feeling of disconnection. - As mentioned some posts before, I 'm not able getting the sensation of Terry's constant pressure on my whole leg while kicking down, but only on the lower leg sometimes even only on its lower half or feet. The tries with an extended upkick didn't help, they led to a hollow back, or when more from the knees to much more splashes. I've to say, actually I'm not working with my kick for higher pace but only to get the certainty being able to "feel" the differences, and my body to "understand" the theory behind... all with various SR. BTW the impact on SL is minor, most times less than +-1stroke in LCM, which may have also causes I'm not focused in for that moment. Best regards, Werner |
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Maybe were not too far off in our thinking of the 2 beat .The upbeat I do is not mechanical or something that I try to do but rather a natural reaction of my leg from the water of the turn of my torso as my lead arm stretches forward, so it is IN SYNCH with core motion from side to side .To me it seems if you flick and hold then you would have to THINK about getting your leg back in position to flick down again. Dave |
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The core turns toward the side ,the arm stretches forward as the leg goes up just a little and stretches back with toes pointed so at that moment the body is long and toned before the downbeat and then vice versa as you rotate to the other side. No need to THINK much about exact timing of the arm and the kick. At least that is the way it seems good balanced swimmers appear to be doing in the videos I see. Just like a good dancer you move and swing your body and it just happens .
Dave |
Hi Dave,
That’s an excellent way to describe those actions/moves, “a dancer moves and swings the body and all the other movements happen”. Often I characterize this as major and minor movements. Get the major movements correct and all the minor complex movements will take care of themselves. No reason to micro-manage all the complexities, since if we do, we’ll probably get them wrong :-) Cheers, Stu MindBodyAndSwim.com |
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To those who are still doing a conscious upkick for your 2BK, think about this: As your left arm spears, your right leg kicks down so it is "ahead" of your left leg. As a result of this right-leg kick (Newton's law), your legs rotate so the right hip moves up (toward the surface of the water), helping your body move onto its side so the left side is down. When the right arm spears, your left leg kicks down. But, since the right leg is already "ahead" of the left leg from your previous kick, no upkick is needed. Simply kick the left leg down--which rotates your legs so the left hip moves up, and your body is on its side with right side down. After each kick, the resulting body rotation puts the next leg in perfect position to kick again, with no preparatory motion needed. |
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thanks for the reply. I'm not sure I understand you correctly. Are you saying that for a long time you were doing the "flick and hold" but now you are experimenting with other ways of kicking? Do you think that "flick and hold" might not be the best method? Thanks! |
Hello Tom,
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First step has been -some years ago- to get my legs from cycling-like movement into steady streamline, nearly without any motion. Next and for now longest time I came to a combination from core-movement from reaching forward and light rotation as support of a flick-hold kick. Think origin was a short video, where Todd Ericison demonstrates that 2BK starting from flat Superman-position. (From this suggestion my kick was timed by feeling, not by thought and related to your earlier descriptions in this thread, more as late as you tried to integrate your's in your later rotation-start when catch has been finished.) Most important for me: My legs had to stay streamlined all time. Then I read/translated Terry's 2.0-chapter about 2BK, and it became clear, I'm missing the sensation of pressure along the whole leg. So I one and then worked on my kick again, trying ot achieve this sensation. (This time initiated by this thread.) And now the part I hesitated to write about: It's difficult to find the right words in German, even harder to try writing them in English and probably impossible to find the at least quarter-right ones in Californish :-) Yesterday I realized what Terry meant. It's tight to Dave's description. I even nearly wouldn't call it kick or flick. It's a smooth movement of the not too stiffened leg (like an osier?), felt initiated by the core/hips, more leaning from one side to the other, more leisurely than forced, more felt as finest tuning of the streamline than supporting or forcing anything. It felt so naturally... and it shared 1-2SPL (only LCM) with any of my SRs. Simply GREAT. Not sure, if it has been a mayfly, and hope it will be reproducable... and imprintable. Funny enough, but typical for TI(?). I didn't write anything that not has been posted by someone before, but yesterday it seemed some new parts of the puzzle fell together. No secrets, all was open and described but now it seemed a new, awaited part of the picture appeared first time. Best regards, Werner |
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I wanted to report back to you on this. After trying to fix the problem of my dropped elbow by myself, I finally broke down and bought the Finis Forearm Fulcrum. It has been an eye opener. It does not magically fix the problem, but it helps me to see my stroke in a very different and useful light. I have found that it works best for me if I only swim occasional laps with the fulcrum and then swim without it and compare the results and feelings. So here is a short description of where I am with this thing. Perhaps the most important learning is that I have a balance problem at the moment when I rotate. If I try to go into a catch too early, my shoulder is not in a position to allow me to do this. My instinctive reaction is to shift my weight backwards towards my hips, because this allows me to raise the shoulder and get it into position for the catch. This is, of course, a very bad idea. It results in an exaggerated kick to restore balance, much like what you pointed out in your film commentary of Streaks stroke. After discovering this, in my usual fashion I started focussing exclusively on not doing this and, within a few swim sessions my entire stroke started to fall apart. This happens to me all the time. Whenever I discover a significant error in my stroke, I start focussing on it to the point where other aspects of my stroke get forgotten and my swimming gets worse instead of better. So I have gone back to working on all aspects of the stroke, but at the same time using the fulcrum at regular intervals to help keep this new perspective on things. I suspect that fixing my dropped elbow is such a difficult problem is because the cause is many sided, or to put it another way, it is a full body problem and not just an elbow problem. As a result, I also expect that it will not be fixed in a short amount of time. I will need to do a lot of mindful swimming and keep using the fulcrum intermittently to point out to me when I am messing up. By the way, your advice on focussing on the high side recovery and spearing now makes a lot more sense to me since I started using the fulcrum. The high side determines when I can go into my catch without dropping my elbow. I also like ZT's analogy about sighting down my arm like I am shooting a rifle. This helps me to keep my head in the correct position and my weight forward during rotation. All these things are work in progress, and the fulcrum is a useful tool to help me work on these issues. Thanks for the advice! |
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this is what i discovered recently too looking straight down is not good to set up EVF go ahead and raise your head position to 45 deg forward (look at the low tiles on the far wall) |
big difference in drag reduction too i found
i only put it right down if im doing straight arm so i can get max reach |
Try static float with face down and also slightly up you can still stay level with a 2bk
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Head slightly up creates more core tension which gives a better platform to ride forward on
(sternum forward Bill Boomer) |
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That's great. The fulcrums are an excellent awareness tool, and yes only for short distances during repeats. They feel like wearing a cast, but that feeling is making us aware of all the adding movements with the hands that need to be minimized or removed Quote:
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Stu mindbodyandswim.com |
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Hi Mushroom, i did watch that clip, but I'm not sure it is addressing a problem I really have. I tend to look somewhat forward, not straight down, and my major sin is to lift my head too high, not keeping it too much in line with my spine. All stuff to pay attention to and work on though
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CoachJamesEwart*
Junior Member * Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21 [quote=Zenturtle;66235]We exert pressure to drive forwards where do we exert pressure? Pull too soon when is it too soon? Lets say you still use front quadrant timing. Is it too soon if you are still at the edge of front quadrant timing? What do you mean by "at the edge of"? You are an engneer, you understand coupling motions? Front Quadrant means what? What is the purpose of "Front Quadrant"? Do you know? What does it achieve and how? Let's try and explore and understand these terms.* We are seeking to remain as streamlined as possible between the strokes whiuls creating coupling motuoins through combing catch, wieght shift and kick (whether 2 beat, 4 beat or 6 beat) |
CoachJamesEwart*
Junior Member * Join Date: Apr 2015 Posts: 21 [quote=Mushroomfloat;66257] Quote: Originally Posted by*CoachJamesEwart* Connection not coupling (coupling is shoulder driven or straight arm) I got told by Coach Dougal Coupling is combining forces together. No need for straight arm |
http://fliphtml5.com/uhie/ghip
figure 4 is on the edge of front quadrant. One arm lands in the water while the other is 90 degrees down. If both arms are in front of head during cycle, you are swimming in front quadrant. Its mostly to keep the weight in front of the lungs to help balance, for a hipdriven stroke with weight shifts, and for staying long most of the time mushroom have you already worked your way through this thread? http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=8448 Long, but interesting at times. |
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