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-   -   Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9605)

WFEGb 06-28-2018 07:39 AM

Hello Dave,

Quote:

...I don't think a stiff leg or an extended up kick will really do much good but I guess it can give you an initial temporary feeling to aim for .
Thank you, think some timing- and "leg-fluke-motion-trys" will become FPs next weeks... What struck me from this thread, is not only Terry's "late" kick, but even his late upkick just before, seems to me being very often after catch and while the press-phase starts or even has started (Terry: I never press hard...). Had a long time to calm my legs from bike-motion into streamline and then was glad to feel it nearly drifting upward without any upkick. Seems time to be revised...

Best regards,
Werner

daveblt 06-28-2018 03:22 PM

When it comes to the 2 beat I try to not think too much and just let core rhythms move it along .When I reach forward I just let my leg my leg upbeat at the same time so at so my leg is at the highest point with a stretched out feeling the same time my hand reaches full spear extension. Then the arm pulls and the downbeat happens .

Don't think ...feel

Dave

Danny 06-28-2018 05:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65901)
Hi Danny,

I've coached a lot of swimmers just like what you are describing. What may seem very counter-intuitive to fixing the dropped elbow on the low side is actually work first on the high side release, path forward, entry and forward extension. Any imbalance created with the high side arm, lifting early over hip, tense shoulder/arm, entering flat, etc will trigger the low side arm to pull with the hand (dropping elbow) to correct the imbalance. Any amount of "shaping" the low side arm will be lost due to imbalance created by high side (recovery) arm doing the wrong thing.

A tool that will help you is using the Finis Forearm Fulcums. This keeps the hand, wrist, elbow in line, any pulling with the hand, the fulcrum falls off. Also, any imbalance patterns with the recovery arm, lifting early, bending wrist - the fulcrum falls off. This will give you the awareness of the hand taking over whether on low or high side arms. Closed hands also works well for this problem too, but when a fulcrum falls off the arm - awareness is immediate.

Re: Imitating Shelly (Taylor or Ripple) vs Terry. You will find your own path and journey and there will be similarities swimmer to swimmer.

Shelly Taylor is 5'4" 75 strokes per minute, with above average aquatic profile - she can easily float horizontal without moving or adjusting arms and legs. Terry is 6'1", 55 strokes per minute, with a very low aquatic profile (like most of us guys). Hips sink quick and requires specific positions with arms and legs to maintain a balanced profile. Shelly and Terry are two very different vessels and profiles, so it's not a binary choice of one over the other.

Shelly T's high profile is both blessing and a curse. High profile, a blessing, any errors in stroke don't cause the hips to sink - relatively easy to maintain horizontal balance naturally. The curse, very difficult to rotate, all shoulder adaptation from (shoulder) tension, pausing at hip and lifting arm out of water low from shoulder, extending high side arm flat entering almost elbow first due to rotating body pulling on low side arm early. These adaptive movement patterns don't cause her hips to sink due to her high profile, but cause the back to arch and go "core soft".

Terry's low profile is both curse and blessing. Low profile, any errors in stroke, hips drop, drag increases exponentially. Blessing in that it's easy to rotate and get high side arm out of the water, soft/light shoulder. Keeping the arm weight and momentum turning in front of head (lungs) keeps the hips high. This too is a blessing since the core is completely engaged throughout the stroke cycle, shoulders/arms, hips/legs limber and fluid - core tone and engaged.

If I swam like Shelly T, shoulder driven, stiff legs - my hips would immediately drop 6 to 8", possibly more. Even though I'm shorter than Terry, my aquatic profile is even deeper, hips drop fast with any imbalance or stroke error; so I swim hip/core driven, very front quadrant to keep hips at surface maintaining streamline.

There are a lot of factors and you will find what works for you personally. But I always coach swimmers core engage/driven, soft and fluid shoulders/arms, fluid hips and legs whether sprinter or mid to long distance, short or tall, high or low aquatic profiles. The main difference is tempo or turnover rate that works best for them given their height (wingspan), skill and distance they're swimming.

Anyway - I suggest correcting the high side arm to fix the low side dropping elbow, avoid pulling on the hand. Use the finish forearm fulcrum to build awareness

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Hi Stuart, There's a lot of good info in your above message, and I appreciate that. I did look at the video of the Finis Forearm Fulcrum, and I like the concept. Just looking at people using it, I feel like I understand how it might help me. If I didn't already have so much junk in my house, I would be tempted to buy one, but I am going to resist that temptation, for now at least, and see if I can get away without it. I've been swimming with closed fists for years now, and I have no trouble with that, but the fulcrum seems like possibly a better solution.

I will spend some time focusing on the recovering arm (while trying to keep my downside elbow up) and I'll work at this for a while. I'll let you know how it goes. Thanks again for all the good info!

WFEGb 06-28-2018 05:03 PM

Hello Dave,
Quote:

When it comes to the 2 beat I try to not think too much and just let core rhythms move it along .When I reach forward I just let my leg my leg upbeat at the same time so at so my leg is at the highest point with a stretched out feeling the same time my hand reaches full spear extension. Then the arm pulls and the downbeat happens .

Don't think ...feel
Thank you! Think what you described is just my actual "state of art", but with that, I've never reached Terry's sensation of constant pressure along the whole leg. Anyway, it will not hurt to stay aware and play a bit around with the kick.

Best regards,
Werner

Zenturtle 06-28-2018 05:55 PM

I have my thoughts about `errors` in the stroke from the statically balanced swimmers.

lets say we have 2 swimmers.

-Swimmer A is statically balanced, that is, the swimmers does float horizontally without any energy input, except some postural toning.
-Swimmer B is statically unbalanced. Even with maximal adaptions regarding the posture, the legs still sink.

This is a basic unbalance thats always there and needs special measures to counteract.
The unbalanced swimmer has to make certain adaptations to the stroke to become balanced.

Its by no means certain that these adaptations, that the unbalanced swimmer has to make, are advantagous for the statically balanced swimmer.
In theory they even can be counterproductive, because they are measures to solve a problem that doesnt exist, and therefore non efficient for the statically balanced swimmer.

Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.

Mushroomfloat 06-29-2018 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 65914)
I have my thoughts about `errors` in the stroke from the statically balanced swimmers.

lets say we have 2 swimmers.

-Swimmer A is statically balanced, that is, the swimmers does float horizontally without any energy input, except some postural toning.
-Swimmer B is statically unbalanced. Even with maximal adaptions regarding the posture, the legs still sink.

This is a basic unbalance thats always there and needs special measures to counteract.
The unbalanced swimmer has to make certain adaptations to the stroke to become balanced.

Its by no means certain that these adaptations, that the unbalanced swimmer has to make, are advantagous for the statically balanced swimmer.
In theory they even can be counterproductive, because they are measures to solve a problem that doesnt exist, and therefore non efficient for the statically balanced swimmer.


Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.


Like trying to stick rigidly to SoL when F & P would be more optimal / efficient?

Sounds like my troube now i can quantify it.

Mushroomfloat 06-29-2018 02:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 65893)
mushroomfloat, you might find the finding freestyle drills interesting

https://www.youtube.com/user/soulswimmer9/videos

its about the basic 2 swimming styles,
-float and paddle style
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvKBIJqY94w
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9emyWcqrLXY
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-eXWjtryVO8 next stage with one leg added.

- statue of liberty
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7O3p0BuyPcA
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iJt7OcueRy8
everybody has to find his her optimal mix between these 2.

I dont agree with their description of twisting of the torso. What they show is bending and twisting of the torso combined.
They dont differentiate different movements very well.

There are 3 movements the torso can make:
Twisting
bending
undulating.
So enough to play with ha ha

TI is very much at the statue of liberty end of the spectrum, but with a 2BK.

Really helpful cheers :-)

fooboo 06-29-2018 04:11 AM

There is no reason to take into account non-balanced swimming.
More and more, personally, I appreciate recovery arm weight tip.
Head position and patient leading arm add to it. What differ for me
is an anchor. I still feel it is important part of forward movement.

Zenturtle 06-29-2018 08:23 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65905)
Float & Paddle eh?

Shelly T looks like float & paddle to me know i review it.

https://youtu.be/wt6_bqj_808

But she does hardly anyting with the torso except bracing against the almost straight legs. HIps to shoulders move almost as one solid block. She doesnt have kayak timing either, its just at the edge of front quadrant. Low arm just before 90 degrees when other arm enters. Very standard basic timing. Nobody swims really like float and paddle, but its nice to be conscious about that internal torso muscle activation that can be used more or less during your stroke.

Young Phelps uses a combination of twisting, bending and undulation to get his body past his anchoring left arm.
He goes through the water more in one line now, but still the same basic movement pattern is there. Watch his spine and imagine how his skeleton moves.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pziUBplSIK0

Thorpe has a lot of shoulder twist (and extension) relative to hip rotation.

Different folks, different strokes.

WFEGb 06-29-2018 09:40 AM

Hello ZT,

Quote:

...Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.
You speak a big word calmly, as we in Germany say... and then the decision follows: What are really necessary tiny tricks for the (natural?) unbalanced swimmers are they real improvements, what are unnecessary bad (breaking balance and streamline) habits? And as said before, there are some coaches, convinced balance and streamline won't become important, before you can swim with a pace of 1:30min/100m.

Love the similarity to Feynman's Principle of Smallest Effect, finding the ideal path (of infinity much) by tiny variation on each possible. (Think navis work the same way, but with finally many ways...)... And that's nearly Kaizen...

Best regards,
Werner

CoachStuartMcDougal 06-29-2018 03:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 65914)
Therefore I wouldnt call the absence of tricks the statically unbalancend swimmer has to use `errors`.

The Statically balanced swimmer just has more freedom to choose the most optimal movement pattern that brings the swimmer through the water in the most optimal way.
That optimal movement pattern doenst have to be the one that the non balanced swimmer has to choose by necessity.

This may make sense in Germany, but I’m trying to clarify in California - appears more contradiction. And this may be the language chosen. I would change ‘tricks’ to skills and ‘errors’ to obvious opportunities.

There are both primal adaptations and intentional adaptations. In Shelly T’s case there are more primal. 1. Head high, tense shoulders, arched back. Tense shoulders arched back are consequence of high head looking forward. 2. Exentending high side arm flat, pressure is all on already tense shoulder and triggers low side arm to rotate body all from the shoulder of low side (pulling) arm. 3. Low side arm bounces off the hip at exit changes to flat trajectory swinging arm low from shoulder due to lack of rotation, causes lateral spine twist, “core soft”. 1, 2, & 3 are primal adaptations and there are some obvious opportunities. 1, 2, & 3 would cause the swimmer with a low aquatic profile hips to drop a foot or more that would only add to the primal coping responses to imbalance. I’m guessing that Shelly T’s shoulders (especially left shoulder) and lower back are torched after a 10k or even a 5k.

Due to Shelly T’s short wingspan, arm to torso weight is low, difficult to rotate body enough. She needs at least 10 deg more rotation to get arm in scapular plane to keep exiting arm on the same trajectory so she doesn’t have to swing arm low from tense shoulder. Opportunities would/could be 1. Align head/spine - good posture, in line axis allows body to rotate easily. 2. Slice in recovery arm below the lungs. This will a. take pressure off the shoulder, b. access the lats, c. drive more rotation. 3. Soften legs/hips to allow hips to rotate/drive through the legs like a whip to assist in rotation. Kinetic energy doesn’t flow through a rigid leg and tense hip. 4. Release all tension in shoulder at exit, arm should easily launch out of water high without recruiting the shoulder. 1 - 4 are necessary for the low profile swimmer too to maintain balance and swim from the core (not shoulders) in whole body coordinated movement. 1 - 4 are intentional movements and fall under improving ‘skills’ - kaizen.

Although the priorities may be different for the high and low profile swimmers, the principles remain the same.

Stu
MindBodyAndSwim.com

Streak 06-29-2018 06:11 PM

To further illustrate what Stu is saying below. Here is another video of me getting some great tips form the master!. Shows well how the faults of my high side arm cause the issues with my low side arm.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kZ6TB9gqc70

I have worked hard at correcting this and have seen some good results.
In fact after doing an asymmetric TT exercise this week I then switched off the TT and set out to do a brisk 100 and ending up breaking my PB doing a 1:25 100 yards!!

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65901)
Hi Danny,

I've coached a lot of swimmers just like what you are describing. What may seem very counter-intuitive to fixing the dropped elbow on the low side is actually work first on the high side release, path forward, entry and forward extension. Any imbalance created with the high side arm, lifting early over hip, tense shoulder/arm, entering flat, etc will trigger the low side arm to pull with the hand (dropping elbow) to correct the imbalance. Any amount of "shaping" the low side arm will be lost due to imbalance created by high side (recovery) arm doing the wrong thing.

A tool that will help you is using the Finis Forearm Fulcums. This keeps the hand, wrist, elbow in line, any pulling with the hand, the fulcrum falls off. Also, any imbalance patterns with the recovery arm, lifting early, bending wrist - the fulcrum falls off. This will give you the awareness of the hand taking over whether on low or high side arms. Closed hands also works well for this problem too, but when a fulcrum falls off the arm - awareness is immediate.

Re: Imitating Shelly (Taylor or Ripple) vs Terry. You will find your own path and journey and there will be similarities swimmer to swimmer.

Shelly Taylor is 5'4" 75 strokes per minute, with above average aquatic profile - she can easily float horizontal without moving or adjusting arms and legs. Terry is 6'1", 55 strokes per minute, with a very low aquatic profile (like most of us guys). Hips sink quick and requires specific positions with arms and legs to maintain a balanced profile. Shelly and Terry are two very different vessels and profiles, so it's not a binary choice of one over the other.

Shelly T's high profile is both blessing and a curse. High profile, a blessing, any errors in stroke don't cause the hips to sink - relatively easy to maintain horizontal balance naturally. The curse, very difficult to rotate, all shoulder adaptation from (shoulder) tension, pausing at hip and lifting arm out of water low from shoulder, extending high side arm flat entering almost elbow first due to rotating body pulling on low side arm early. These adaptive movement patterns don't cause her hips to sink due to her high profile, but cause the back to arch and go "core soft".

Terry's low profile is both curse and blessing. Low profile, any errors in stroke, hips drop, drag increases exponentially. Blessing in that it's easy to rotate and get high side arm out of the water, soft/light shoulder. Keeping the arm weight and momentum turning in front of head (lungs) keeps the hips high. This too is a blessing since the core is completely engaged throughout the stroke cycle, shoulders/arms, hips/legs limber and fluid - core tone and engaged.

If I swam like Shelly T, shoulder driven, stiff legs - my hips would immediately drop 6 to 8", possibly more. Even though I'm shorter than Terry, my aquatic profile is even deeper, hips drop fast with any imbalance or stroke error; so I swim hip/core driven, very front quadrant to keep hips at surface maintaining streamline.

There are a lot of factors and you will find what works for you personally. But I always coach swimmers core engage/driven, soft and fluid shoulders/arms, fluid hips and legs whether sprinter or mid to long distance, short or tall, high or low aquatic profiles. The main difference is tempo or turnover rate that works best for them given their height (wingspan), skill and distance they're swimming.

Anyway - I suggest correcting the high side arm to fix the low side dropping elbow, avoid pulling on the hand. Use the finish forearm fulcrum to build awareness

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com


WFEGb 06-30-2018 03:32 PM

Hello Stuart,

Quote:

This may make sense in Germany, but I’m trying to clarify in California - appears more contradiction. And this may be the language chosen. I would change ‘tricks’ to skills and ‘errors’ to obvious opportunities.
Thanks ;-)

Best regards,
Werner

PS: BTW was not clear to me, that ZT's statement related strongly to ST's style. Obviously got lost in this thread once more... but so could savour your well founded analysis. Great!

Tom Pamperin 07-02-2018 02:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveblt (Post 65911)
When it comes to the 2 beat I try to not think too much and just let core rhythms move it along .When I reach forward I just let my leg my leg upbeat at the same time so at so my leg is at the highest point with a stretched out feeling the same time my hand reaches full spear extension. Then the arm pulls and the downbeat happens .

I missed commenting on this when it was current, but I have found that no upbeat is necessary, or even desirable. Flick and hold--the rotation of the body puts the new leg in position to kick with no upkick needed at all.

Has anyone else here done the 2BK that way, with no upkick? It's in the Freestyle Mastery videos, but I managed to discover it for myself before seeing it there.

WFEGb 07-02-2018 07:38 AM

Hello Tom,

Quote:

Has anyone else here done the 2BK that way, with no upkick? It's in the Freestyle Mastery videos, but I managed to discover it for myself before seeing it there.
Yes I am, and for (too?) long time I've been satisfied (complacent?) with it. It differs(ed) a little from more support to rotation (timed when catch goes over in press) in my relaxed pace; to my faster pace, when I try to more support spearing, then it happens a (even) little later, when press is in work together with reduced rotation.

When translating Terry's chapter about 2BK in 2.0 Mastery I stumbled over two of his remarks:

- Using the kick for support of rotation and forward speed same time. This till now happens only at a (day dependent) special SR. Lower, it supports rotation; faster it supports spear and reach forward. Trying a later kick at lower SR or vice versa leads to an uncomfortable feeling of disconnection.

- As mentioned some posts before, I 'm not able getting the sensation of Terry's constant pressure on my whole leg while kicking down, but only on the lower leg sometimes even only on its lower half or feet. The tries with an extended upkick didn't help, they led to a hollow back, or when more from the knees to much more splashes.

I've to say, actually I'm not working with my kick for higher pace but only to get the certainty being able to "feel" the differences, and my body to "understand" the theory behind... all with various SR. BTW the impact on SL is minor, most times less than +-1stroke in LCM, which may have also causes I'm not focused in for that moment.

Best regards,
Werner

daveblt 07-05-2018 01:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65938)
I missed commenting on this when it was current, but I have found that no upbeat is necessary, or even desirable. Flick and hold--the rotation of the body puts the new leg in position to kick with no upkick needed at all.

Has anyone else here done the 2BK that way, with no upkick? It's in the Freestyle Mastery videos, but I managed to discover it for myself before seeing it there.


Maybe were not too far off in our thinking of the 2 beat .The upbeat I do is not mechanical or something that I try to do but rather a natural reaction of my leg from the water of the turn of my torso as my lead arm stretches forward, so it is IN SYNCH with core motion from side to side .To me it seems if you flick and hold then you would have to THINK about getting your leg back in position to flick down again.

Dave

novaswimmer 07-05-2018 01:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveblt (Post 65957)
Maybe were not too far off in our thinking of the 2 beat .The upbeat I do is not mechanical or something that I try to do but rather a natural reaction of my leg from the water of the turn of my torso as my lead arm stretches forward, so it is IN SYNCH with core motion from side to side .To me it seems if you flick and hold then you would have to THINK about getting your leg back in position to flick down again.

Dave

I've lately been more aware of this 'up-movement' that I"ve been doing. I do an intentional up-kick to prepare for the down-kick and that's what's leading to a fair amount of drag. Need to try to eliminate that.

daveblt 07-05-2018 02:29 PM

The core turns toward the side ,the arm stretches forward as the leg goes up just a little and stretches back with toes pointed so at that moment the body is long and toned before the downbeat and then vice versa as you rotate to the other side. No need to THINK much about exact timing of the arm and the kick. At least that is the way it seems good balanced swimmers appear to be doing in the videos I see. Just like a good dancer you move and swing your body and it just happens .

Dave

CoachStuartMcDougal 07-05-2018 05:56 PM

Hi Dave,

That’s an excellent way to describe those actions/moves, “a dancer moves and swings the body and all the other movements happen”. Often I characterize this as major and minor movements. Get the major movements correct and all the minor complex movements will take care of themselves. No reason to micro-manage all the complexities, since if we do, we’ll probably get them wrong :-)

Cheers,

Stu
MindBodyAndSwim.com

Tom Pamperin 07-05-2018 09:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveblt (Post 65959)
The core turns toward the side ,the arm stretches forward as the leg goes up just a little and stretches back with toes pointed so at that moment the body is long and toned before the downbeat and then vice versa as you rotate to the other side. No need to THINK much about exact timing of the arm and the kick. At least that is the way it seems good balanced swimmers appear to be doing in the videos I see. Just like a good dancer you move and swing your body and it just happens .

Dave

Yep, we may be describing the same thing in different ways to some extent.

To those who are still doing a conscious upkick for your 2BK, think about this:

As your left arm spears, your right leg kicks down so it is "ahead" of your left leg. As a result of this right-leg kick (Newton's law), your legs rotate so the right hip moves up (toward the surface of the water), helping your body move onto its side so the left side is down.

When the right arm spears, your left leg kicks down. But, since the right leg is already "ahead" of the left leg from your previous kick, no upkick is needed. Simply kick the left leg down--which rotates your legs so the left hip moves up, and your body is on its side with right side down.

After each kick, the resulting body rotation puts the next leg in perfect position to kick again, with no preparatory motion needed.

Tom Pamperin 07-05-2018 09:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 65939)
Yes I am, and for (too?) long time I've been satisfied (complacent?) with it. It differs(ed) a little from more support to rotation (timed when catch goes over in press) in my relaxed pace; to my faster pace, when I try to more support spearing, then it happens a (even) little later, when press is in work together with reduced rotation.

Werner,

thanks for the reply. I'm not sure I understand you correctly.

Are you saying that for a long time you were doing the "flick and hold" but now you are experimenting with other ways of kicking? Do you think that "flick and hold" might not be the best method?

Thanks!

WFEGb 07-05-2018 11:12 PM

Hello Tom,

Quote:

Are you saying that for a long time you were doing the "flick and hold" but now you are experimenting with other ways of kicking? Do you think that "flick and hold" might not be the best method?
Yes... no... may be... Next try:

First step has been -some years ago- to get my legs from cycling-like movement into steady streamline, nearly without any motion.

Next and for now longest time I came to a combination from core-movement from reaching forward and light rotation as support of a flick-hold kick. Think origin was a short video, where Todd Ericison demonstrates that 2BK starting from flat Superman-position. (From this suggestion my kick was timed by feeling, not by thought and related to your earlier descriptions in this thread, more as late as you tried to integrate your's in your later rotation-start when catch has been finished.) Most important for me: My legs had to stay streamlined all time.

Then I read/translated Terry's 2.0-chapter about 2BK, and it became clear, I'm missing the sensation of pressure along the whole leg. So I one and then worked on my kick again, trying ot achieve this sensation. (This time initiated by this thread.)

And now the part I hesitated to write about: It's difficult to find the right words in German, even harder to try writing them in English and probably impossible to find the at least quarter-right ones in Californish :-)
Yesterday I realized what Terry meant. It's tight to Dave's description. I even nearly wouldn't call it kick or flick. It's a smooth movement of the not too stiffened leg (like an osier?), felt initiated by the core/hips, more leaning from one side to the other, more leisurely than forced, more felt as finest tuning of the streamline than supporting or forcing anything. It felt so naturally... and it shared 1-2SPL (only LCM) with any of my SRs. Simply GREAT. Not sure, if it has been a mayfly, and hope it will be reproducable... and imprintable.

Funny enough, but typical for TI(?). I didn't write anything that not has been posted by someone before, but yesterday it seemed some new parts of the puzzle fell together. No secrets, all was open and described but now it seemed a new, awaited part of the picture appeared first time.

Best regards,
Werner

Danny 07-21-2018 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65901)
Hi Danny,

I've coached a lot of swimmers just like what you are describing. What may seem very counter-intuitive to fixing the dropped elbow on the low side is actually work first on the high side release, path forward, entry and forward extension. Any imbalance created with the high side arm, lifting early over hip, tense shoulder/arm, entering flat, etc will trigger the low side arm to pull with the hand (dropping elbow) to correct the imbalance. Any amount of "shaping" the low side arm will be lost due to imbalance created by high side (recovery) arm doing the wrong thing.

A tool that will help you is using the Finis Forearm Fulcums. This keeps the hand, wrist, elbow in line, any pulling with the hand, the fulcrum falls off. Also, any imbalance patterns with the recovery arm, lifting early, bending wrist - the fulcrum falls off. This will give you the awareness of the hand taking over whether on low or high side arms. Closed hands also works well for this problem too, but when a fulcrum falls off the arm - awareness is immediate.

Re: Imitating Shelly (Taylor or Ripple) vs Terry. You will find your own path and journey and there will be similarities swimmer to swimmer.

Shelly Taylor is 5'4" 75 strokes per minute, with above average aquatic profile - she can easily float horizontal without moving or adjusting arms and legs. Terry is 6'1", 55 strokes per minute, with a very low aquatic profile (like most of us guys). Hips sink quick and requires specific positions with arms and legs to maintain a balanced profile. Shelly and Terry are two very different vessels and profiles, so it's not a binary choice of one over the other.

Shelly T's high profile is both blessing and a curse. High profile, a blessing, any errors in stroke don't cause the hips to sink - relatively easy to maintain horizontal balance naturally. The curse, very difficult to rotate, all shoulder adaptation from (shoulder) tension, pausing at hip and lifting arm out of water low from shoulder, extending high side arm flat entering almost elbow first due to rotating body pulling on low side arm early. These adaptive movement patterns don't cause her hips to sink due to her high profile, but cause the back to arch and go "core soft".

Terry's low profile is both curse and blessing. Low profile, any errors in stroke, hips drop, drag increases exponentially. Blessing in that it's easy to rotate and get high side arm out of the water, soft/light shoulder. Keeping the arm weight and momentum turning in front of head (lungs) keeps the hips high. This too is a blessing since the core is completely engaged throughout the stroke cycle, shoulders/arms, hips/legs limber and fluid - core tone and engaged.

If I swam like Shelly T, shoulder driven, stiff legs - my hips would immediately drop 6 to 8", possibly more. Even though I'm shorter than Terry, my aquatic profile is even deeper, hips drop fast with any imbalance or stroke error; so I swim hip/core driven, very front quadrant to keep hips at surface maintaining streamline.

There are a lot of factors and you will find what works for you personally. But I always coach swimmers core engage/driven, soft and fluid shoulders/arms, fluid hips and legs whether sprinter or mid to long distance, short or tall, high or low aquatic profiles. The main difference is tempo or turnover rate that works best for them given their height (wingspan), skill and distance they're swimming.

Anyway - I suggest correcting the high side arm to fix the low side dropping elbow, avoid pulling on the hand. Use the finish forearm fulcrum to build awareness

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Hi Stuart,

I wanted to report back to you on this. After trying to fix the problem of my dropped elbow by myself, I finally broke down and bought the Finis Forearm Fulcrum. It has been an eye opener. It does not magically fix the problem, but it helps me to see my stroke in a very different and useful light. I have found that it works best for me if I only swim occasional laps with the fulcrum and then swim without it and compare the results and feelings. So here is a short description of where I am with this thing.

Perhaps the most important learning is that I have a balance problem at the moment when I rotate. If I try to go into a catch too early, my shoulder is not in a position to allow me to do this. My instinctive reaction is to shift my weight backwards towards my hips, because this allows me to raise the shoulder and get it into position for the catch. This is, of course, a very bad idea. It results in an exaggerated kick to restore balance, much like what you pointed out in your film commentary of Streaks stroke. After discovering this, in my usual fashion I started focussing exclusively on not doing this and, within a few swim sessions my entire stroke started to fall apart. This happens to me all the time. Whenever I discover a significant error in my stroke, I start focussing on it to the point where other aspects of my stroke get forgotten and my swimming gets worse instead of better. So I have gone back to working on all aspects of the stroke, but at the same time using the fulcrum at regular intervals to help keep this new perspective on things. I suspect that fixing my dropped elbow is such a difficult problem is because the cause is many sided, or to put it another way, it is a full body problem and not just an elbow problem. As a result, I also expect that it will not be fixed in a short amount of time. I will need to do a lot of mindful swimming and keep using the fulcrum intermittently to point out to me when I am messing up.

By the way, your advice on focussing on the high side recovery and spearing now makes a lot more sense to me since I started using the fulcrum. The high side determines when I can go into my catch without dropping my elbow. I also like ZT's analogy about sighting down my arm like I am shooting a rifle. This helps me to keep my head in the correct position and my weight forward during rotation. All these things are work in progress, and the fulcrum is a useful tool to help me work on these issues. Thanks for the advice!

Mushroomfloat 07-21-2018 04:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66086)
Hi Stuart,

I wanted to report back to you on this. After trying to fix the problem of my dropped elbow by myself, I finally broke down and bought the Finis Forearm Fulcrum. It has been an eye opener. It does not magically fix the problem, but it helps me to see my stroke in a very different and useful light. I have found that it works best for me if I only swim occasional laps with the fulcrum and then swim without it and compare the results and feelings. So here is a short description of where I am with this thing.

Perhaps the most important learning is that I have a balance problem at the moment when I rotate. If I try to go into a catch too early, my shoulder is not in a position to allow me to do this. My instinctive reaction is to shift my weight backwards towards my hips, because this allows me to raise the shoulder and get it into position for the catch. This is, of course, a very bad idea. It results in an exaggerated kick to restore balance, much like what you pointed out in your film commentary of Streaks stroke. After discovering this, in my usual fashion I started focussing exclusively on not doing this and, within a few swim sessions my entire stroke started to fall apart. This happens to me all the time. Whenever I discover a significant error in my stroke, I start focussing on it to the point where other aspects of my stroke get forgotten and my swimming gets worse instead of better. So I have gone back to working on all aspects of the stroke, but at the same time using the fulcrum at regular intervals to help keep this new perspective on things. I suspect that fixing my dropped elbow is such a difficult problem is because the cause is many sided, or to put it another way, it is a full body problem and not just an elbow problem. As a result, I also expect that it will not be fixed in a short amount of time. I will need to do a lot of mindful swimming and keep using the fulcrum intermittently to point out to me when I am messing up.

By the way, your advice on focussing on the high side recovery and spearing now makes a lot more sense to me since I started using the fulcrum. The high side determines when I can go into my catch without dropping my elbow. I also like ZT's analogy about sighting down my arm like I am shooting a rifle. This helps me to keep my head in the correct position and my weight forward during rotation. All these things are work in progress, and the fulcrum is a useful tool to help me work on these issues. Thanks for the advice!

You want to be up at the front
this is what i discovered recently too
looking straight down is not good to set up EVF
go ahead and raise your head position to 45 deg forward (look at the low tiles on the far wall)

Mushroomfloat 07-21-2018 04:38 PM

big difference in drag reduction too i found

i only put it right down if im doing straight arm so i can get max reach

Mushroomfloat 07-21-2018 04:40 PM

Try static float with face down and also slightly up you can still stay level with a 2bk

Mushroomfloat 07-21-2018 04:58 PM

Head slightly up creates more core tension which gives a better platform to ride forward on
(sternum forward Bill Boomer)

CoachStuartMcDougal 07-23-2018 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66086)
Hi Stuart,

I wanted to report back to you on this. After trying to fix the problem of my dropped elbow by myself, I finally broke down and bought the Finis Forearm Fulcrum. It has been an eye opener. It does not magically fix the problem, but it helps me to see my stroke in a very different and useful light. I have found that it works best for me if I only swim occasional laps with the fulcrum and then swim without it and compare the results and feelings. So here is a short description of where I am with this thing.


That's great. The fulcrums are an excellent awareness tool, and yes only for short distances during repeats. They feel like wearing a cast, but that feeling is making us aware of all the adding movements with the hands that need to be minimized or removed

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66086)
Perhaps the most important learning is that I have a balance problem at the moment when I rotate. If I try to go into a catch too early, my shoulder is not in a position to allow me to do this. My instinctive reaction is to shift my weight backwards towards my hips, because this allows me to raise the shoulder and get it into position for the catch. This is, of course, a very bad idea. It results in an exaggerated kick to restore balance, much like what you pointed out in your film commentary of Streaks stroke.

That's quite common. I see swimmers heave their bodies into a better leverage position to grip water, but comes at a huge expense in drag, where all or more power is lost to the water.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66086)
After discovering this, in my usual fashion I started focussing exclusively on not doing this and, within a few swim sessions my entire stroke started to fall apart. This happens to me all the time. Whenever I discover a significant error in my stroke, I start focussing on it to the point where other aspects of my stroke get forgotten and my swimming gets worse instead of better. So I have gone back to working on all aspects of the stroke, but at the same time using the fulcrum at regular intervals to help keep this new perspective on things. I suspect that fixing my dropped elbow is such a difficult problem is because the cause is many sided, or to put it another way, it is a full body problem and not just an elbow problem. As a result, I also expect that it will not be fixed in a short amount of time. I will need to do a lot of mindful swimming and keep using the fulcrum intermittently to point out to me when I am messing up.

Well said, I but would change "problem" to "opportunity". It's a work in process and continued refinement. And when you work on new patterns of movement, others will seem to fall apart - this is all building new awareness. Work on refining *one* part of your stroke at a time and often where other parts feel like they're falling apart, it's more likely a new pattern (out of comfort zone) is happening due to refining balance and foundation of the part you are refining. Any new movement pattern, correcting a movement pattern, even subtle refining of a movement pattern will always feel awkward. If it doesn't, you are in your current pattern or comfort zone. Awkward is good, learning, creating new connections and adaptations - as long as there is no pain.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66086)
By the way, your advice on focussing on the high side recovery and spearing now makes a lot more sense to me since I started using the fulcrum. The high side determines when I can go into my catch without dropping my elbow. I also like ZT's analogy about sighting down my arm like I am shooting a rifle. This helps me to keep my head in the correct position and my weight forward during rotation. All these things are work in progress, and the fulcrum is a useful tool to help me work on these issues. Thanks for the advice!

That's great to hear! Keep up the good work and continue push yourself out of the "comfort zone". "Focus on process not outcomes" ~Terry Laughlin

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Mushroomfloat 07-30-2018 02:37 PM

F.A.O Danny
v
https://youtu.be/Nv6qDqKPd_M

Danny 07-30-2018 09:08 PM

Hi Mushroom, i did watch that clip, but I'm not sure it is addressing a problem I really have. I tend to look somewhat forward, not straight down, and my major sin is to lift my head too high, not keeping it too much in line with my spine. All stuff to pay attention to and work on though

Mushroomfloat 08-08-2018 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65868)
Coupling, no; connection yes. No windmill or "kayak", that's coupling arms. Transition of one edge to the other where both arms in front of head, or lower front quadrant is connection.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

i'm confused, Coach JamesEwart says it is coupling

Mushroomfloat 08-08-2018 10:19 AM

CoachJamesEwart*

Junior Member

*

Join Date: Apr 2015

Posts: 21

[quote=Zenturtle;66235]We exert pressure to drive forwards
where do we exert pressure?

Pull too soon
when is it too soon? Lets say you still use front quadrant timing. Is it too soon if you are still at the edge of front quadrant timing?

What do you mean by "at the edge of"? You are an engneer, you understand coupling motions? Front Quadrant means what? What is the purpose of "Front Quadrant"? Do you know? What does it achieve and how? Let's try and explore and understand these terms.*
We are seeking to remain as streamlined as possible between the strokes whiuls creating coupling motuoins through combing catch, wieght shift and kick (whether 2 beat, 4 beat or 6 beat)

Mushroomfloat 08-08-2018 10:23 AM

CoachJamesEwart*

Junior Member

*

Join Date: Apr 2015

Posts: 21

[quote=Mushroomfloat;66257]

Quote:

Originally Posted by*CoachJamesEwart*


Connection not coupling (coupling is shoulder driven or straight arm)
I got told by Coach Dougal

Coupling is combining forces together. No need for straight arm

Zenturtle 08-08-2018 12:44 PM

http://fliphtml5.com/uhie/ghip

figure 4 is on the edge of front quadrant.
One arm lands in the water while the other is 90 degrees down.
If both arms are in front of head during cycle, you are swimming in front quadrant.
Its mostly to keep the weight in front of the lungs to help balance, for a hipdriven stroke with weight shifts, and for staying long most of the time

mushroom have you already worked your way through this thread?

http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/...ead.php?t=8448

Long, but interesting at times.


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