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-   -   Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9605)

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 11:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65637)
So it seems like the "don't rotate until spearing hand hits the water" idea is gaining ground here. It really has changed the way I swim, or at least how it feels to me.

Tom

I think i can deduce what is happening, "staying up" till entry is using the whole flat of the body to rock across the surface of the water giving a really high body position when "stopped" by balancing off the palm underwater

so from palm to palm with the flat of the body rolling across the surface

i certainly felt a dry back anyway

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 11:37 AM

Like displacement theory ( how battleships etc float, like a saucer placed flat in a sink full of water it will float and you can push the edges down slightly but swamp / submege it and it will sink like a rock)

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 11:46 AM

We are displacing the water underneath ourselves and riding across the surface like a boat
tip to far and sink?

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 12:00 PM

A series of alternating palm / elbow presses tensioning and relaxing?

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 01:40 PM

So stop punching forward and instead start pressing down and nudge forward in surges

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 02:01 PM

The water pushes up on the swimmer with a value proportional to the volume of water displaced by the swimmer.*

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 02:03 PM

So thats why the out of shape fat dudes run rings around the skinny dudes?

sclim 06-02-2018 02:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65645)
So thats why the out of shape fat dudes run rings around the skinny dudes?

My understanding of that is a little more nuanced. Swimming (in a streamlined position) UNDER the surface creates less overall drag than BREAKING the surface at the same velocity.

So the problem with the really skinny dudes (me) is that they are so low that if they have any leg-sinky problems, their head is so low that coming up for air requires a marked deviation from normal alignment and aggravates the leg sinky proplems and destroys longitudinal alignment.

The fat guy and the skilful skinny guy are constantly breaking the surface with their shoulder and back of head and maybe hip, so are equivalent in drag, even though the fat guy may be slightly more buoyant, and the skilful skinny guy can turn his head for air in the trough behind his head without bouncing up, and so his leg alignment doesn't suffer.

I think possibly the merit of the delayed rotation on spear is that the high shoulder at spear presents less of a frontal chest area drag than a dropped shoulder at that moment. That adds up over the cumulative additions of each stroke. And in the non drag department, the stretched latissimus muscle may give a recoil-related efficiency when contraction is required. And their may be subtle forward momentum issues I can't figure out. It certainly feels more efficient of your given finite energy stores.

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 05:23 PM

I felt that i was supported onthe surface by the water and was even jostled about by wavelets in the pool, like i was floating along on a cushion, certainly seemed less energy intensive than being more submerged as usual

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 05:24 PM

Almost like i was using the water rebound

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 05:25 PM

Maybe its the pressure wave running under the body from front to back?

Mushroomfloat 06-02-2018 05:31 PM

Yes thats it, starting a pressure wave by balancing on the palm / elbow to extention which rolls under the body generating lift in a slight dolphin motion running all the way to the feet?

Next arm starts it again

Mushroomfloat 06-03-2018 05:04 AM

So now i understand about the outrigger focal point and how stacked will sink the body
its all about displacement of the water beneath the body and harnessing the rebound energy.

So with that in mind fqs 3/4 catch up, kayak, or windmill timimg should be able to be switched between at will depending on the speed desired.

Tom Pamperin 06-04-2018 06:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65655)
fqs 3/4 catch up, kayak, or windmill timimg should be able to be switched between at will depending on the speed desired.

Well, I would say "depending on the stroke rate desired." But stroke rate is only one variable of speed, the other being distance per stroke.

In other words, you can swim faster by increasing your stroke rate but keeping the same distance per stroke. Or you can swim faster while using the same stroke rate by increasing distance per stroke.

But simply speeding up the stroke rate does not guarantee increased speed.

I need to get back in a pool and see what effect my stroke/kick timing has on speed and SPL. Today (open water) I was trying to avoid starting the low arm pressing motion until the spearing arm was wrist-deep. And I gave a lot of attention to making sure the pressing arm was passing the shoulder before kicking, and also making sure the initial part of the press was slow and steady with no bubbles. And also a lot of attention to making sure I did not allow the body to rotate before the kick.

In open water with no ability to measure SPL and distance and time, I'm not sure when it's better to let the underwater arm drift down into the catch early, or when it's better to keep it patient and unmoving until the spearing arm enters.

Mushroomfloat 06-04-2018 06:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65660)
Well, I would say "depending on the stroke rate desired." But stroke rate is only one variable of speed, the other being distance per stroke.

In other words, you can swim faster by increasing your stroke rate but keeping the same distance per stroke. Or you can swim faster while using the same stroke rate by increasing distance per stroke.

But simply speeding up the stroke rate does not guarantee increased speed.

I need to get back in a pool and see what effect my stroke/kick timing has on speed and SPL. Today (open water) I was trying to avoid starting the low arm pressing motion until the spearing arm was wrist-deep. And I gave a lot of attention to making sure the pressing arm was passing the shoulder before kicking, and also making sure the initial part of the press was slow and steady with no bubbles. And also a lot of attention to making sure I did not allow the body to rotate before the kick.

In open water with no ability to measure SPL and distance and time, I'm not sure when it's better to let the underwater arm drift down into the catch early, or when it's better to keep it patient and unmoving until the spearing arm enters.

I know what you mean i tried both last week, patient and letting it drop
re letting it drop i turned the arms over from the torso with straight arm recovery and let the lead arm drop outstretched from entry to about 7pm in a pinkie down orientation utilising the weight from the recovery arm coming over, at shoulder level i kayak timed the catch and rotation as one, in a kind of windmill corkscrew spiral action, i just stayed totally relaxed like a zombie and it worked really well i got a good rythmn cycle going, like corkscrewing along, i used the bill boomer restart drill as whole stroke basically with about 60 deg rotation

Mushroomfloat 06-04-2018 06:47 AM

re dps v turnover i see it as "big gear on a bike" (like kpn says) yes there is power there but at greater energy cost

so like running it can be better to increase cadence to increase speed than start increasing stride length
inc length will zap energy faster than inc cadence

Mushroomfloat 06-04-2018 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65661)
I know what you mean i tried both last week, patient and letting it drop
re letting it drop i turned the arms over from the torso with straight arm recovery and let the lead arm drop outstretched from entry to about 7pm in a pinkie down orientation utilising the weight from the recovery arm coming over, at shoulder level i kayak timed the catch and rotation as one, in a kind of windmill corkscrew spiral action, i just stayed totally relaxed like a zombie and it worked really well i got a good rythmn cycle going, like corkscrewing along, i used the bill boomer restart drill as whole stroke basically with about 60 deg rotation

Beinga blento switch between both is probably a good bet as can let the water/displacement do a bit of the work when get tired ?

Tom Pamperin 06-04-2018 09:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65662)
re dps v turnover i see it as "big gear on a bike" (like kpn says) yes there is power there but at greater energy cost

so like running it can be better to increase cadence to increase speed than start increasing stride length
inc length will zap energy faster than inc cadence

I know what you mean about using a high cadence or low gear in running or biking, but I think the opposite may well be true with swimming.

Done correctly, the longer distance per stroke does not come from putting more muscle power into the stroke. It comes from maintaining better balance and precise body positions, and actively streamlining--which may well actually decrease your perceived effort even as your stroke gets longer.

I think there is an intense mental effort in keeping strokes long at speed, but not so much a physical exertion. I generally get better speeds and less exertion when I focus on making my strokes longer, rather than faster.

I do agree there are many variables to work with, and that there is an optimal stroke length and rate for every distance/speed combination. So no one right way to swim--are you sprinting 100m? Racing 500m? Swimming 2 miles open water? Going slow to concentrate on learning a new feeling? All of these call for very different combinations of stroke rate and distance per stroke.

WFEGb 06-08-2018 09:58 AM

Hello Tom,

some steps back, but found the video with Shinji and his son. Is your (not any more) new timing what Shinji's son shows just before his emphasized spear? He's swimming fairly fast aside to his father, wile his faster spear and synchronized faster catch-press allows him to swim same pace and(!) SR... While Shinji can hold it with his smoother stroke?

Best regards,
Werner

Tom Pamperin 06-09-2018 11:30 AM

Werner,

I watched the Shinji and sons video, but I don't see much difference between the timing between them. Can you explain what you are seeing that is different?

Lately I have been focusing on not letting my front arm drift down to the catch until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. I have also been focusing on delaying the kick until the pressing arm passes the shoulder. It is a longer delay than I had thought, but propulsion seems very effective when I do this. I think I am swimming faster, with a longer stroke.

I also notice that everything works better when I swim faster, with more effort. It is hard to get really efficient propulsion if you are too slow and relaxed.

WFEGb 06-09-2018 11:05 PM

Hello Tom,

Quote:

I watched the Shinji and sons video, but I don't see much difference between the timing between them. Can you explain what you are seeing that is different?

Lately I have been focusing on not letting my front arm drift down to the catch until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water....
What I thought to see is better seen with Kyle. Shinji's recovery is most times a tiny bit faster than Kyle's. Shinji seems to swim with continous movement all his stroke. Kyle catches up this time with a faster spear (and synchronized catch-press. Especially to his breathing side he rotates a bit further. It affects me as the more accelerated even more aggressive part of his stroke.

Hmm... misunderstood you a long time. You are swimming with a more patient lead arm than before? So if catch and press has to be done while the spearing arm is moving forward in front below surface this is a much faster and more accelerated move. If you still can hold your arm full of water without churning it more around, you must swim faster. GREAT! (Seems to me that Kyle and Shinji are nearly ready with their catch when wrist enters the water, so it does not relate to what what you meant.)

Now I'm astonished that you feel your faster catch-press-phase even as more effortless. Seems you will get it from right applied and very right converted rotational energy...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Sometimes my "English tongue" has a knot... difficult enough to explain what I mean in mother tongue.

Tom Pamperin 06-10-2018 07:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 65689)
Hmm... misunderstood you a long time. You are swimming with a more patient lead arm than before?

No, you understood me. I was swimming with a LESS patient lead arm, and letting the lead arm drift downward toward the catch before the spearing arm entered the water. That was an easy way to increase stroke rate while decreasing effort. But when I tested in a pool, my SPL was also up, and speed was maybe down slightly. So, swimming that way feels good, very sustainable, but not best for speed.

Lately--in the past week or so--I have been trying to keep the same feeling and kick timing while NOT letting my arm drift toward the catch. So I am back to a patient lead arm, with the lead arm not moving until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. And I am delaying rotation and kick to keep the same timing (kick happens as pressing arm passes shoulder--no movement before that point).

I am not sure, but I think that the patient lead arm gives a longer stroke with a slightly slower stroke rate. I really need to shoot some video to get some feedback on what I am doing, but it feels good. I have not tested it much with SPL or pace, though--I've been too busy swimming open water for uncertain distances.

Yep, I need some video.

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 65689)
PS: Sometimes my "English tongue" has a knot... difficult enough to explain what I mean in mother tongue.

Well... mein Deutsch is zehr schlecht. Ich weiss nichts auf Deutsh--ihre Englisch ... wie sagt man "impresses me?"

WFEGb 06-10-2018 11:12 AM

Hello Tom,

Quote:

But when I tested in a pool, my SPL was also up, and speed was maybe down slightly. So, swimming that way feels good, very sustainable, but not best for speed.
Might become interesting, if you can swim with same endurance with a slightly higher SR in the pool, if you really lost pace related to your former stroke. Maybe your feeling of lost pace only is a brain thing like: It feels better, I can swim more sustainable... that must be slower.

Last but not least IMHO, when not in competition or prepairing for it or another rigid goal, the better (healthy) feeling always beats SL and SR, especially in OW... Even FPs may help to better that better felt stroke...

Quote:

Well... mein Deutsch is zehr schlecht. Ich weiss nichts auf Deutsh--ihre Englisch ... wie sagt man "impresses me?"
Thank you very much :) (Seems I'm on a low level plateau and hope Kaizen will be the right way here too...) Maybe we should try to talk "crosswise". You in German I in English. Do this sometimes with my coachfriend James, coaching in Berlin...

Best regards,
Werner

Tom Pamperin 06-10-2018 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 65693)
Maybe we should try to talk "crosswise". You in German I in English.

Gute Idee. Also, ich will es versuchen. (Mit die Hilfe von ein online Worterbuch--mein Wortschatz est sehr klein).

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 65693)
Might become interesting, if you can swim with same endurance with a slightly higher SR in the pool, if you really lost pace related to your former stroke. Maybe your feeling of lost pace only is a brain thing like: It feels better, I can swim more sustainable... that must be slower.

Ich habe meine Geschwindikeit gepruft mit eine Uhr in eine 35m Schwimmbad, also es ist nicht nur ein Gefuhl das ich bin langsamer.

Aber ich zustimme das besser Gefuhl besiegt Geschwindikeit. Meistens... Aber wir alle wollen zu schwimmen immer schneller, nicht wahr?

(Ich habe dieser Versuch zu Deutsch sprechen Vergnugen finden--ich will jetzt eine weiterer Diskussion beginnen auf Deustch auf das Forum--aber du auf Englisch wird antworten).

Ja, das Worterbuch notwendig war!

whoiscathy 06-10-2018 08:02 PM

That sux
 
from here on, I can't follow :(

Oh well, I'm just a spy anyway.

Tom Pamperin 06-10-2018 08:14 PM

Don't worry; I'm moving the German discussion to another thread!

Danny 06-10-2018 09:04 PM

Tom, for whatever it's worth, take a look at Terry's freestyle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
In my opinion he definitely starts moving his forward arm down before his recovering arm enters the water. In fact, it seems to me that his forward arm is close to under his shoulder when his high side arm enters the water.

I am struggling with the same issue and still playing around to decide what is best for me.

Tom Pamperin 06-10-2018 10:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 65701)
Tom, for whatever it's worth, take a look at Terry's freestyle
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
In my opinion he definitely starts moving his forward arm down before his recovering arm enters the water. In fact, it seems to me that his forward arm is close to under his shoulder when his high side arm enters the water.

I am struggling with the same issue and still playing around to decide what is best for me.

Danny,

I agree 100%. Watching Terry's arm and kick timing is what started my experiments in this direction.

I would say that I am continuing to experiment with this idea of when/if to let the lead arm drift down toward the catch, not so much struggling with it.

Conclusions: letting the lead arm drift feels good, like I get more continuous propulsion and less glide. But pool results (in an oddball 35m pool) suggest that my SPL goes up slightly as SR increases, and speed goes slightly down. Exertion also seems to go down, though. I intend to shoot some video when I return to the U.S. this summer and will post here for feedback.

I find the patient lead arm works well, too. I have not tested SPL and pace in the pool with this focus yet. But when I keep the lead arm motionless until the wrist of the spearing arm enters, it seems like a loooong time to remain still and stable--there is a long phase of the stroke when the only thing moving is the recovering arm. That is probably very good for drag reduction--if I can actually manage to keep still!

Like so much of TI, I suspect there is not a "right" answer, but probably yet another variable to manipulate for effect. So many! Keeps things interesting...

sclim 06-10-2018 11:18 PM

Having followed the trail of your various experiments and your current conclusions, I'm not sure what to think. Not so much as to what your efficiency is -- your objective data measured as SPL in the pool demonstrates that the feeling of "easiness" with an early downward drift of the lead hand is associated with a shortened stroke, therefore a slower speed and less efficiency.

But what to make of Terry's early lead hand downward drift, and how it conflicts with his recommendation for "patient lead hand"?

Could it be that Terry's specific version of early drift downwards is not exactly the same as yours is? What I'm getting at is, could it be that Terry, with his years of exquisite sensitizing to friction and losses of efficiency, has mastered the art of sensing exactly when the right moment to allow downward drift of the fingers, so that any potential loss of streamlining in the hand forward position is made up by the efficiency of having the fingertips moving at zero velocity during the transition from glide to catch after the moment has passed when the economy of gliding has diminished due to the glide velocity dropping beyond a critical point.

Sadly, this is a question we can't ask of him. Maybe Shinji has a view on this.

Tom Pamperin 06-11-2018 01:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65705)
Having followed the trail of your various experiments and your current conclusions, I'm not sure what to think. Not so much as to what your efficiency is -- your objective data measured as SPL in the pool demonstrates that the feeling of "easiness" with an early downward drift of the lead hand is associated with a shortened stroke, therefore a slower speed and less efficiency.

Well, but it's not that simple, either, because I didn't explain my conclusions fully. I have not been prioritizing fast swimming at all. I have been doing long open water sessions mostly for pure mindful enjoyment.

So I am not ready to give up on the downward drift as "slower"--my recent few pool times with drifting lead arm have shown slower pace and higher SPL to what I was doing 2 months ago, but the comparison is not all that valid--(e.g. 1:10/70m in a 35m pool compared to 1:06/75m in a 25m pool). More importantly, I have not re-measured since I went back to a patient lead arm, so it's apples and ostriches right now.

I look forward to getting back in a 25m pool and doing some side-by-side comparisons of speed and SPL. That should happen this month.

What I have found, though, is that I can keep much of the same feel to the stroke whether I let the lead arm drift or not. It has become a variable I can adjust on purpose. The one non-variable essential seems to be that the kick be timed to happen as the pressing arm passes the shoulder.

Mushroomfloat 06-11-2018 06:56 AM

You are fighting againt/ resisting the downward pressure from the recovery arm on the lead arm by keeping it patient till the last momemt

it feels easier when you naturally allow the weight of the recovery arm to push your lead arm down and as you rotate (slightly) towars the recovery arm entry this gives you an automatic high elbow catch.

Yes you can resist and the glide is faster (no drag from onciming water on the lead arm) but it is smoother to flow the stroke from the inside out (ie turn the arms over from the core)
you can turn arms over from core by resisiting with the lead arm
let it do what it wants
(Which is drop lower under weight of high side arm)
Roll towards the arm going down (highside) once it passes shoulder and straightens out for entry

Mushroomfloat 06-11-2018 06:58 AM

*you can't turn arms over from the core byresisting with the lead arm

Mushroomfloat 06-11-2018 07:06 AM

I spear about 8:30pm and by the time the highside arm weight had affected the spear arm it is about at 7pm
then catch it taken with rotation just ahead of the shoulder (the strongest biomechnical position)

Mushroomfloat 06-11-2018 07:08 AM

"Extend to the elbow and not the hand"
(Ie dont lock out)

Danny 06-12-2018 02:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65708)
Well, but it's not that simple, either, because I didn't explain my conclusions fully. I have not been prioritizing fast swimming at all. I have been doing long open water sessions mostly for pure mindful enjoyment.

So I am not ready to give up on the downward drift as "slower"--my recent few pool times with drifting lead arm have shown slower pace and higher SPL to what I was doing 2 months ago, but the comparison is not all that valid--(e.g. 1:10/70m in a 35m pool compared to 1:06/75m in a 25m pool). More importantly, I have not re-measured since I went back to a patient lead arm, so it's apples and ostriches right now.

I look forward to getting back in a 25m pool and doing some side-by-side comparisons of speed and SPL. That should happen this month.

What I have found, though, is that I can keep much of the same feel to the stroke whether I let the lead arm drift or not. It has become a variable I can adjust on purpose. The one non-variable essential seems to be that the kick be timed to happen as the pressing arm passes the shoulder.

Tom, I remember the start of this discussion very well. When I first tried Terry's style (or my perception of it), I remember dropping my SPL by about 1 or 2 in a 25 yd pool, and my time stayed close to the same. Then I got sick and was out of the pool for about 2 months. Since coming back it seems to me that the same style leads to a larger SPL instead of a smaller one, although it still feels very good. I haven't been able to resolve this issue. There are, however, several tentative conclusions I am thinking about, and I am unhappy with all of them. First, my ability to understand what Terry is doing by looking at the excellent underwater film of his stroke seems to be rather limited. Second, my ability to understand what I myself am doing, or even my ability to repeat the same technique over an extended period of time, seems depressingly limited. This is not really new. We all have incredibly good days (or even weeks) that then disappear leaving us scratching our heads and wondering why.

In your case, you weren't sick but rather swimming in open water without concentrating on metrics, but some aspects of the same phenomenon may have taken place. A big puzzle to ponder...

Mushroomfloat 06-12-2018 05:19 PM

Dont think in terms of arm 1 & arm 2

Think of both arms as connected through the shoulders and upperback (because they are)
What one does affects the other, they operate in unison.

"Like a little choo choo train, like a little choo choo motion"

Mushroomfloat 06-12-2018 05:20 PM

Resisting this is like resisting against your natural body mechanics

sclim 06-12-2018 08:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 65731)
Tom, I remember the start of this discussion very well. When I first tried Terry's style (or my perception of it), I remember dropping my SPL by about 1 or 2 in a 25 yd pool, and my time stayed close to the same. Then I got sick and was out of the pool for about 2 months. Since coming back it seems to me that the same style leads to a larger SPL instead of a smaller one, although it still feels very good. I haven't been able to resolve this issue. There are, however, several tentative conclusions I am thinking about, and I am unhappy with all of them. First, my ability to understand what Terry is doing by looking at the excellent underwater film of his stroke seems to be rather limited. Second, my ability to understand what I myself am doing, or even my ability to repeat the same technique over an extended period of time, seems depressingly limited. This is not really new. We all have incredibly good days (or even weeks) that then disappear leaving us scratching our heads and wondering why.

In your case, you weren't sick but rather swimming in open water without concentrating on metrics, but some aspects of the same phenomenon may have taken place. A big puzzle to ponder...

I'm glad you too see the puzzle in this. Your tentative conclusions are noted with interest, as is your stated limitation in the analysis of Terry's film. Over time, perhaps, with some reflection, and some further experimentation, some clarity may emerge regarding exactly what is going on with earlier catch movement, or even whether there are variations as to exactly what that movement is (rather than simply the question of when that movement of the lead hand begins).

Tom Pamperin 06-13-2018 09:32 AM

Either way (patient lead arm or downward drifting lead arm) feels good to me right now as long as I keep my kick timing correct. But I am learning toward a conclusion that the patient lead arm is the way to go for long distances.

The downward drift seems good for increasing stroke rate without tension or struggle.

It will be very interesting next week when I can get in a pool and try them both out with a pace clock and SPL comparison. I'll try to shoot some video as well if I can.

Tom Pamperin 06-13-2018 09:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65733)
Resisting this is like resisting against your natural body mechanics

Hmm. Maybe. On the other hand, resisting rotation with a patient lead arm has started to feel like Coach Dave Cameron's advice on spearing for a high elbow catch:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=tDmQiHQ8mW8


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