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swimtraining with TI like stuff in it
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJKhOLpv0Oo
Looks a bit oldschool to me now. Dont like the overrolling hips relative to the smaller shoulder roll, that sets up the core at he low side line too litle in my opinion, but for the rest, pretty decent swimming. |
Thanks zen
It has our old favourites, Unco, Closed Fist and Longdog. What was new to me was Catch and Throw but using a big paddle. Something for us to try tomorrow. |
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you need to be beginning to ride the right hip as the right arm is heading for entry otherwise you are reaching across your body in a twist this stunts fwd momentum. |
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Right, I showed that video a few times also. indeed the differnce is subtle from the outside, but when you know the differnce, the diffeence in swim perception is substantial.
When I started swimming I was intrigued by the power from the hips mantra and rolled my hips a lot to extract that mystical power from it. Simply rolling the hips is useless and even counterproductive. The hips are part of a kinetic chain and need to be controlled in amplitude to extract the optimal amount of power following that kinetic chain. Just when throwing a ball or boxing or throwing a spear or golfing; swinging your hips without proper connection to the rest of the motions of the body is just silly. you might focus on the roll of your low side hip when swimming slow. Mostly the hip overrolls and has to be rolled back all the way to the other side every stroke. Like a big mass is attached to your hips that keeps on rolling when it has gained momentum. females suffer more from it than males usually, which makes sense. Now control that hips roll and transfer the rol of the hip to the shoulder , so that the shoulder is taken along with the hip rotation, while you lenghten and reach with the low side of the body. Now the roll of the hips decreases and the roll of the shoulder increases a bit. That takes some muscle tension and tone to accomplish, but you will get rid of the overshoot and feel that your body tracks more straight and forward. You simply eliminate superfluous and unneeded extra motion from your stroke. |
And this was Quick before Boomer influenced him
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3YE2JjJpRA A lot of kicking.... |
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I can't see anyything remotely "TI like" here ... what have I missed please?
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJKhOLpv0Oo
Quite some talk about being streamlined, balanced, efficiency,using the whole body etc. Where do you not agree? (except the use of a 6bk) By the way, I see you are a technique interested coach, with a lot of genuinly satisfied customers it seems. As an engineer, I am also quite interested in solving and analyzing the whole swimming puzzle. Any feedback on my thoughts of optimal swimming which I post here and there is apreciated, if its based on sound arguments. |
"TI Like"
Who said I did not like the 6 beat kick? Depends on the distance. But when I see replies from people on this thread a talking aboiut "unco" drills I question the integrity of the thread. I see you have been a contributor for a long time and that's great and thank you for that. But we know nothing about your credentials as a TI swimmer and it would be great if you coud share those to give your posts some context. Perhaps you did post them before and I missed them in which case I apologise but please do take the opportunity to share now.
For sure TI does seem to always appeal to people seeking to understand the phsysics like yourself. AS TI coaches we like to try and be the interface for people like yourself who undertand there is physics at work here. and nice to meet you Zen Turtle ... great name by the way. best regards James |
I am not a TI swimmer or a swimsmooth swimmer or whatever.
Just a guy who started swimming 6 years ago already, and trying all the dishes available on his own. That means, trying differnt swimming styles to see what makes them tick as far thats possible for a middle aged guy with an avarage engine size. Still havent found my personal style by all this messing around, but its converging to a certain stroke. Luckily the very raw basics for a good stroke are the same for any style. But whats wrong with unco? One of the best drills around if you execute it properly I think. |
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So, you roll to one side , extend from the shoulder while keeping the arm relaxed with pinky down and at the exact same time the leg on the same side is poised in the upbeat position ,the whole body is long stretched and balanced like you are on your tippy toes then repeat to the other side . Dave |
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Re: Unco. This is what SS has named the single arm drill - short for uncoordinated or something? Single arm free drill has been around forever. I would hope a swimmer could coordinate one arm in freestyle if they're swimming with two and if they have two functioning arms. Some of us in TI use single arm drill and some don't - Terry used for specific reasons too. I prefer single arm fly as opposed to single arm free. Being "one of the best drills" what specifically do you use it to improve where two arms just get in the way? What is the point of the drill other than to feel a lack of coordination or being unco'd? Stu mindbodyandswim.com |
Just swimming a bit up and down in the pool a few times a week.
Unco is good for: Timing Roll from the core Balancing and staying aligned while being thrown off course by the recovering arm, or the pulling arm Connection your catch and pull with your body twist/roll Breathing while not disturbing the process. Because you are more concentrated one one side of the body you can focus on whats happening better. Unco or one arm swimming is a very difficult action to do perfect. Even the olympic swimmer cant keep perfectly aligned and struggles a bit if you watch her in slowmo. The beauty is that its very close to the starting point of swimming, that is being in balance rotationally and between front and rear. Now you add disturbing actions and you have to stay balanced and also make sure you are making forward progress while staying aligned. With every action you can focus on the effect of that action. How does lifting of the arm out the water effects my rotational balance and where does the body sink during that action? How does the body react on a fast recovery, on a slow recovery? How does the lifting of the non working arm help rotation? Can I use more core and legs or a smoother recovery to do that work in the water? What part of the body is bending a bit instead of only rotating around the axis? In what sequence connect all the bodyparts if I imagine them to be seperate parts, only allowed to rotate around a spit? Can I add abit of that bending and twisting to my advantage without creating too much drag, or loosing the rotation around a spit idea too much? How do I make the whole cycle smooth? How can my legs help rotation a bit? At what time do I add a bit of shoulder twist and reach, and how do i set up the arm in the water so that the following actions dont cause the body to be steered off line or the body starts to bounce? Because there is only one arm thats anchoring, its more important to get the connection with the water and all the following actions in the body timed just right. You are having a one cilinder engine that you are trying to operate as vibration free as a 2 cilinder engine. If you can do that, your 2 cilinder engine will run as smooth as a 4 cilinder engine. Well, I hope you can see what I try to say..I hardly have time to relax in the pool haha. |
Terry has also a one side drill: Single side swimming.
- I also tried the commonly used single side swimming with one hand outstretched. I didn't like it. At first, this was very easy to perform, but it didn't give me any benefits either. But it hinders a bit the rotation because to do a correct rotation you had to rotate the outstretched arm to the top side. In single fly that's different, because there is no need of rotation. - Terry's single side swimming is different. You must have a very stable core to perform it because all correcting and stabilising movements of the second arm you can't do. The entire rotation you have to do with the core muscles, you cant initiate it with the arms. I can do this drill now (with 2-beat kick), but not always it's easy to breathe in this drill for me. I will have do practice some more :o) - As I see in videos, the UNCO-drill very much like Terry's single side swimming. But the breathe is on the back arm side. On the videos I've seen most swimmers use the back arme to initiate the back rotation, but it may be that's because of that is what someone does who does not rally master the drill. I don't know. It looks like me to be the "easier form" of Terry's drill.I think the drill can teach better core control, but breathing on the stroke side is much more challenging than on the other side because the support of the outstretched hand is missing. Everyone has his own drills he likes or he doesn't like. I like Terry's drill very much even if i felt drowning the first times i did it. And the other two drills may have their point too for other people. Best regards Inge |
Here you can see how difficult it is to do it right and how revealing it can be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhlsLosj15g Terrys pulling nechanics can be improved. It causes massive up and down bobbing by pushing water down underwater pushing the body up, together with the weight of the recovering arm pushing the body down a moment later, setting up an up and down bobbing rhythm. He even has to wait until his body floats up again to take a breath. He could also have chosen a strokerate that amplifies that natural rhythm and become a loper, but it seems the rhytm is to low frequency for that in his case. Terry just didnt have the flexibility to have better underwater mechanics probably, and here it shows up much more than in normal stroke. Even with those limitations its possible to swim well, as Terry proved, but its interesting to become aware of your limitations, and try if you can limit the negative effect they are causing. Unco certainly can help with that. if you do unco like this, its indeed useless https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3Uf5asWJg cant find a good unco example anymore. Whell, this is a good one https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6PtNd9Z4Hg this is a very good one, but with fins https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYagyjgpzFQ but looking for a good one with a 2BK... A good one with a pull buoy https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Oc20LbOA8 This proves that the kick is not the only mean to establish rotation. a beautifull single arm fly https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdsYAO2eI4g well, dont know , but seems more about undulation instead of rotation. |
ZT,
Terry sinks in the one arm drill since he’s not wearing fins like the swimmer doing the “SS unco drill” wearing fins. So you’re putting a right and wrong context, one wearing fins and one not which itself is misleading at minimum. If you have to wear fins to perform a drill, only masks an imbalance issue created by the drill - and then what’s the point of the drill? So again, what is one becoming aware of using this drill other than creating the impulse to pull? The single arm fly you posted too creates the impulse to pull with the opposite arm floating below the surface next to hip, may as well be single arm free with some fly undulation. The single arm fly I use with my swimmers, opposite arm remains in front to maintain balance as the high side arm swings forward from the pelvis accessing external forces of the weight and momentum as it swings forward and thus minimizing and being aware of primal impulses to pull to stabilize the vessel. You noted you are an engineer. Curious, what type of engineering do you practice? Stu Mindbodyandswim.com |
Just Like Inge, I think the one arm always in front variaty limits the rotation and the possibiliy to feel the proper connection from catch to core. rolling all the way from left to right.
Even with fins, you will get up and down bounce if you dont do it right. The disturbance is at shoulder height, not at the rear of the vessel. You always get some bounce, but it shouldnt be excessive, or it should be deliberate, in an undulating manner. There is a lot happening between hips and elbows that can be managed one way or the other, wearing fins or not. From all these actions only a part is directly related to front-rear balance, what is always your main concern in your reactions. The rest is concerned with finding an optimal dynamic compromise between propulslon and streamline. If your basic balance is good, thats not your only purpose anymore. Balance is the platform to work from. Not the main action on itself. mechanical engineer offcourse :-) |
ZT,
If you’re an engineer of any discipline, you know to compare tests in the same scenario or environment to get valid results, otherwise inconclusive. Using inconclusive testing to support an argument, well is meaningless, but good marketing maybe. So what’s the point of the “unco” single arm drill if one is to use the drill? Stu Mindbodyandswim.com |
how many words to use?
Unco is good for: Timing Roll from the core Balancing and staying aligned while being thrown off course by the recovering arm, or the pulling arm Connection your catch and pull with your body twist/roll Breathing while not disturbing the process. Because you are more concentrated one one side of the body you can focus on whats happening better. Unco or one arm swimming is a very difficult action to do perfect. Even the olympic swimmer cant keep perfectly aligned and struggles a bit if you watch her in slowmo. The beauty is that its very close to the starting point of swimming, that is being in balance rotationally and between front and rear. Now you add disturbing actions and you have to stay balanced and also make sure you are making forward progress while staying aligned. With every action you can focus on the effect of that action. How does lifting of the arm out the water effects my rotational balance and where does the body sink during that action? How does the body react on a fast recovery, on a slow recovery? How does the lifting of the non working arm help rotation? Can I use more core and legs or a smoother recovery to do that work in the water? What part of the body is bending a bit instead of only rotating around the axis? In what sequence connect all the bodyparts if I imagine them to be seperate parts, only allowed to rotate around a spit? Can I add abit of that bending and twisting to my advantage without creating too much drag, or loosing the rotation around a spit idea too much? How do I make the whole cycle smooth? How can my legs help rotation a bit? At what time do I add a bit of shoulder twist and reach, and how do i set up the arm in the water so that the following actions dont cause the body to be steered off line or the body starts to bounce? Because there is only one arm thats anchoring, its more important to get the connection with the water and all the following actions in the body timed just right. You are having a one cilinder engine that you are trying to operate as vibration free as a 2 cilinder engine. If you can do that, your 2 cilinder engine will run as smooth as a 4 cilinder engine. |
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzQc1XadHk (from 45 sec) The movement done on the learners arm mimics the right recovery movement in the above water part, but also mimics the dropped elbow movement for the underwaterpart.... yeah, how to teach everything and not overwhelm the student with information overload? By the way this is more on topic in another thread. |
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OK. It does force the swimmer to use the core/hip/leg region to use as a foundation for throwing that arm forward. There is nothing else left to help that movement. Is that what you want to achieve? Quote:
External forces of the weight and momentum?... Where do you think that weight gets its momentum from? You alway talk about primal instincts to pull. So what place does the pull have in the stroke besides being primal and intinctive? (instinctive being to balance and get to air I suppose) |
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The Pull works best when timed with rotation. We exert pressure to drive forwards from high side to low side past that anchoring low side hand. Pull too soon and you have lost the coupling motion of shifting and catching and holding at the same time. That's another thng that's unhelpful about the Unco drill - it messes up your timing. |
There are two forms of this one-armed freestyle, depending on which side you breath on. Supposedly each one highlights some aspect of balance and timing, but I won't try to get in to that, because I'm only familiar with the version I use, where I breath on the side of the stroking arm. I also like to swim this way with my hand closed in a fist. I can slow the stroke way down when I do this, which allows me to focus on my timing of hips and shoulders. The other thing this seems to help is precisely the bobbing that ZT was referring to. A slow one armed recovery means that your recovering arm is spending more time out of the water, which pushes your body down. This can help you to time your breathing with the natural bobbing of your body induced by the heavy arm outside the water. At more realistic swimming rates, this effect becomes smaller, so it is harder to teach yourself how to exploit it and coordinate it with your breathing.
Some years ago there was a long thread on this forum about one-armed breathing, which I can't find now, but others with better web skills might be able to put up a link to it. Two coaches who saw some virtue in this drill were Charles Couterier and Suzanne Atkinson. |
[quote=Danny;66226]There are two forms of this one-armed freestyle, depending on which side you breath on. Supposedly each one highlights some aspect of balance and timing, but I won't try to get in to that, because I'm only familiar with the version I use, where I breath on the side of the stroking arm. I also like to swim this way with my hand closed in a fist. I can slow the stroke way down when I do this, which allows me to focus on my timing of hips and shoulders. The other thing this seems to help is precisely the bobbing that ZT was referring to. A slow one armed recovery means that your recovering arm is spending more time out of the water, which pushes your body down. This can help you to time your breathing with the natural bobbing of your body induced by the heavy arm outside the water. At more realistic swimming rates, this effect becomes smaller, so it is harder to teach yourself how to exploit it and coordinate it with your breathing.
The recovering arm should not push the body down, it should help stability. You are most likely over rotating and recovering the arm too high if that's happening. You should definitely not be "bobbing". That is not how to breathe efficiently when swimming freestyle. |
Wheneer ive seen single arm drill done well there is a rythmical bobbing to the stroke
it comes from the boyancy in the chest pressing & rolling from side to side through flat |
[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66227]
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In real freestyle, the opposing arm is extended and this effect is more subtle, but it is still there. |
Agree 100% with you here on the damping of the outstretched arm.
If you would make your body rigid and long from toe to fingertip with an outstretched arm like a long plank,than that shape will damped the temporary disturbances of the pull and the recovering weight more. I find that the pull is mostly responsible for the bobbing, depending how hard you pull offcourse. You really have to shape and accelerate your pull in a certain way to move forward in a more or less straight line with minimal bobbing. It tells you often that your normal stroke has quite some sideways or up and down force components. I have no footage of myself executing it properly. Still cant do it 100% properly also. Sometimes its nearly there and feels wonderfull and smooth. Its getting better and better though. Feels more and more like normal swimming, but just with one arm less. I like to do the easier version that is swimming 75% with one side and let the other side go along for the ride, help do the other 25 % Than you still are close to normal swimming, with the recovering weight keeping you in the same rhythm, but only using the weight of the arm on the non working side in the recovery, also hardly any pulling on the non working side. Its a bit like loping then, big pull and hip action on one side, limp fillup action at the other side. Gives most of the benefits, buts easier to stay aligned and keep the rhythm going. If you then try to go from 75 % one side to 90 % one side for instance, you can feel where it starts to break down and work on that part. she also has a great one arm freestyle.(and normal) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkt31KITQro (4 min20) |
So I suppose that one way to explain the virtue of the one-armed drills is to note that your extended arm can be used to cover a lot of balance and stroking problems by compensating for them. When you put that arm down by your side, you no longer have that crutch and you can all of a sudden see all of the things you are doing wrong. Once you see them, you can work on correcting them.
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[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66227]
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My experience of these kind of drills is that they do not help create natural stability or flow. My experience of these kind of drills is that they do not help create natural stability or flow. 'Hip with your hips' is one thing but using them independently of the core is quite another and I find people get themseves in quite a muddle when they start trying to jerk their hips from one side to another.
what do you mean by ... these kind of drills? 'Hip with your hips' is one thing but using them independently of the core is quite another and I find people get themseves in quite a muddle when they start trying to jerk their hips from one side to another what is the ´them´using them independently of the core? so you agree with the message of the getting hips with your hips clip?So not rolling the hips for the sake of rolling the hips? |
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We exert pressure to drive forwards where do we exert pressure? Pull too soon when is it too soon? Lets say you still use front quadrant timing. Is it too soon if you are still at the edge of front quadrant timing? it messes up your timing I have to think about this one. There are differnt ways to talk about timing. One is the timing of one arm relative to the other when shifting from one side to the other. The weightshift.(with the kick etc) The other is the timing of the the whole entering of the arm, setting up catch, connecting with core and kick, followed by recovery and back to entering and making that cycle as smooth and effective as possible.< In my view the weight shift is a part of the whole sequence, but only a part of the whole stroke. By taking away this part you can focus more on the other parts. I have heard plenty times, and also from personal experience, that it improves your timing. Especially your smoothness and connection from all bodyparts that are still available. |
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Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side. This is aimed at experienced swimmers that have no idea they’ve relied on the pulling arm for stability and human terrestrial movements triggering imbalance. Maybe I missed it in the noise, but still didn’t catch what type of engineering you are in, where you from (Perth?), where you coach, your favorite swimming pool or areas, films of you swimming/drilling, etc. A little bio helps give us context of your background and love of swimming and coaching. Stu Mindbodyandswim.com |
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Also known at the "karate chop" recovery used by alot of pro freestylers. Single arm fly drill that i have seen is an undulatiing body dolphin just using the one arm |
[quote=Danny;66229]
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I don't like the one armed drills for freetstyle in any of its form actually but if you find benefit in it then of course use it. |
So, if you are not supposed to bob, why is Terry bobbing so much during his one arm freestyle?
How could he stop the bobbing? |
for Coach Stuart
Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward Maybe you dont need many words, but can somebody explain what is meant here? How is the weight of the recovering arm pulling the body forward? And where exactly does that forward pulling starts and stops? Single arm fly where the body doesnt sink? Do you have an example video from that drill? You seem to assume I have some connection with swimsmooth? I have not a single connection to any swimschool. I am not a coach. I am just someone who is interested in swimming. I dont sell books. I dont have a single swimstyle bias. Contrary to TI or swimsmooth coaches, who are biased to one style or the other. Work in R&D as a mechanical engineer, in the Netherlands. |
[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66238]
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I think the one armed drill is useful in the same way that skating is useful. Both drills remove the use of arms and hands to cover up stroke problems. The idea is that you should correct your problems rather than cover them up. So what does the one armed drill offer that skating does not? For me, a lot of problems can arise in the catch and anchor that may throw off my balance and torque me in a direction that I shouldn't be going in. Skating doesn't practice catch and anchor, but the one armed drill does, and without the extended hand on the other side, I get to see some of the problems I might otherwise not notice. Your objection that the catch and anchor should be a whole body movement, which is hindered in the one-armed drill also does not seem to hold to me. The part of the recovery that influences your catch and anchor is done with your recovering shoulder and torso, and there is nothing in the one-armed drill to stop you from practicing the high side recovery motion with your shoulder. In fact, placing more emphasis on shoulder recovery gives a useful perspective to me when I do it. No drill is the same as full stroke, and all drills can be criticized for this. A drill emphasizes certain aspects of full stroke and neglects other aspects. Sometimes this emphasis can be useful, but it depends on what problems you are dealing with. As far as bobbing is concerned, as I said above, it is a bad idea to introduce bobbing into your stroke to facilitate breathing. That said, the one armed drill does make you aware of what impact the recovering arm has on your body position in water. As a matter of principle, I find it helpful to be aware of such things. In full stroke, the bobbing is greatly reduced because of the extended arm. It is also impacted by the timing and nature of the kick. So there are a lot of choices here about what to do with this effect. But the effect is there and being aware of it is (in my opinion) a good thing. Breathing technique is an area that probably deserves its own thread (or even forum), but I will only observe that I see vast differences in the breathing technique (for example) of Terry and Shinji. I think a lot of these differences are due to differences in body type and flexibility. That is where each of us has to find their own right choices. Being aware of the weight of the recovering arm and its impact on breathing is (again in my opinion) something that is useful. what you do with this knowledge is up to you. |
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