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-   -   Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9605)

sclim 05-22-2018 11:13 PM

Rotation/Catch/Kick Synchronization and Timing Variants
 
I have followed the expanding discussion to my initial naive question (on the original "Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm?" thread ) with great interest and satisfaction. I have gained a lot of insight from the contributors' knowledge, from the questions asked and answered, and even from the as yet unresolved issues. This is great guys!

However, for the sake of those trying to follow the thread topic, I have edited the original thread title, because the discussion sort of morphed into Rotation/Catch/Kick synchronization variants. I will start a new thread with this new title, because that's what seems to be the crux of the current discussion, and the discussion can continue here.

sclim 05-22-2018 11:32 PM

I should add that I'm continuing to practice with this new found awareness of the retarding of rotation of the high side while the high side mail-slot fingr-tip entry occurs, then rapidly (not forcing, just sling-shotting) snapping the rotation into action (maybe with the help of the stretches lats muscle on the high side). I'm experimenting with getting the low side arm catch starting a little earlier, different from my prior focus of being very patient with the lead hand to a fault.

The earlier catch is a little tricky as it starts to get earlier past a certain point -- I had spent a lot of time learning to delay the catch until I had rotated that low side to the high side, and I learned it so well I'm having trouble unlearning it. It seems to throw my new-style (of the past 2 years) balance equilibrium off, but I'll chip away at it. I'll play around with the kick timing too.

So far, it's still early days. I find that I'm not tiring quite as much as I do more repeats -- I'm really trying to do this with a focus on relaxation. I'm not getting any faster yet (or, rather my strokes on a constant TT timer beep still seem to get progressively shorter as I fatigue, but I'm lasting longer, with more repeats possible even at this early stage, so I'm quite encouraged).

daveblt 05-23-2018 12:36 AM

[quote=sclim;65534]

The earlier catch is a little tricky as it starts to get earlier past a certain point -- I had spent a lot of time learning to delay the catch until I had rotated that low side to the high side, and I learned it so well I'm having trouble unlearning it. It seems to throw my new-style (of the past 2 years) balance equilibrium off, but I'll chip away at it. I'll play around with the kick timing too.[quote]





I also mentioned in a previous thread that for about the past year and a half to 2 years that I was also trying to work on an earlier catch because my stroke was almost like a catch up stroke. I think the reason and why this all started is because in the original book Total Immersion it mentions that when your hand enters the water 'your arm reaches and I mean reaches like stretching for something on a high shelf'. With this in mind I swam for many years like this but my spearing arm was too rigid and at the same time I was also relying on that arm as an aid to help balance also by keeping it out there so long while I was leaning on my 'buoy '. I think it was also causing a little late breath timing .So now with much practice and better balance that I have found with my torso I reach out with a very relaxed arm and a feeling like I am reaching with my shoulder and not my fingertips along with a pinky down entry so whole arm is relaxed and ready for the catch just as the high arm is ready to enter the water .Like you mentioned it can be hard to correct old habits.

Dave

CoachStuartMcDougal 05-23-2018 02:50 AM

Hi sclim,

Thanks for starting a new thread and a fun subject to discuss, but I think you're missing the most important part, the arm that's above the surface, recovery arm. I think we make the mistake of separating movements/parts into different depts or somehow all are mutually exclusive - and that's largely due to the traditional language of one arm catches and pulls or "pulling arm" and the other recovers (until the next pull) or "recovery arm", and legs kick. This implies one is active below the surface (catch/pull) while the other is inactive or resting above the surface (recovery).

I use the language neutral, "high side" and "low side" arms (Boomer, Kredich), neither imply action or rest. And I view what happens above the surface (in free/back/fly) directly affects and *connects* all movements below the surface.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

sclim 05-23-2018 04:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65536)
Hi sclim,

Thanks for starting a new thread and a fun subject to discuss, but I think you're missing the most important part, the arm that's above the surface, recovery arm. I think we make the mistake of separating movements/parts into different depts or somehow all are mutually exclusive - and that's largely due to the traditional language of one arm catches and pulls or "pulling arm" and the other recovers (until the next pull) or "recovery arm", and legs kick. This implies one is active below the surface (catch/pull) while the other is inactive or resting above the surface (recovery).

I use the language neutral, "high side" and "low side" arms (Boomer, Kredich), neither imply action or rest. And I view what happens above the surface (in free/back/fly) directly affects and *connects* all movements below the surface.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Hey Coach Stuart: Thanks for paying attention and gently correcting! Actually I do understand that ideally when the whole body integrates the various movements the effect of the whole concert is greater than the sum of the isolated parts. But I also understand that it's not necessarily happening correctly for me at present, so my dissection is just to make sure that I didn't unwittingly get my sequences grossly out of order or grossly unbalanced to the side or to the centre at the wrong moment etc., Hence my current obsession with getting timelines and checkpoints as absolutely precisely as I can estimate precisely.

But yes, the ultimate goal is to get the corrected time and path of the various part to flow smoothly and as naturally as possible once I understand or confirm that my path and trajectory and sequencing is appropriate.

I refer to "high side" and "low side" with neutral significance -- only to make sure that the other discussion participants understand which specific side I'm referring to. The whole discussion exercise has led to one very useful insight for me so far -- the realization that the rotation can lag behind or follow exactly in phase with the entering fingertips. By playing with this lag or phase shift I have discovered that a bit of a shoulder rotation lag can give rise to a bit of a subsequent rotational whipping around, like a rapid corkscrew which seems relatively effortless and seems to help the spearing arm and relaxed "vaulting" over the anchoring arm (or whatever you want to call it).

Likewise, I refer to the "recovery" arm only to identify the one that is above water on its way to re-entry (as a synonym for "high side" arm). But I take your point that it is not necessarily inactive or passive, nor is the lower one working harder or anything like that, although I remain open to your reminders not to mentally apply such loaded attributes or qualities lest those intrusive thoughts undermine any development of a restful, efficient, core driven stroke mechanism.

I'm sorry, I just re-read your comment and my response -- maybe I missed what you were trying to state -- "the arm that's above the surface"... you didn't finish, except to make the point that we sometimes get distracted into thinking each part is a separate department isolated from the other parts. Were you trying to point out here that the arm that's above the surface is not just passively on its way to get to the insertion point so that it can pull again, but rather is part of the momentum-carrying mass that most efficiently is redirected forward again ultimately to re-enter the water and spear at a slighly downward trajectory to impart forward propulsive force? If this is what you meant, yes I do see that the high side arm movement "connects" with the low side / below surface actions.

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 03:03 PM

i see it as both arms are connected through the shoulders / upper back so by trying to force one to stay out front whilst the other comes over i am actively working against the natural connection.

i read te ocean walker thread and have been focussing on turning the arms over from the hips/ body, had some great success last night in the pool.

I found that i was really overextending and had to work at holding back the extention after years of "long stroking"

When i foud best was to focus on only extending to the elbow which keeps the forearm and hand relaxed and useable

i brought my entry back to about 1 foot in front of the head which considerably reduced my effort levels

I ended the session with a nice discovery of "riding the elbows" from entry to extention which added stability and all round relaxedness

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 03:07 PM

So there is my tip "extend to the elbow" not the hand fingertips.

(& no i dont mean "dropping the elbow at forward extention")

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 03:13 PM

so basically the highside arms sets your drop and catch under the water as it comes over (from about halfway through the recovery as it nears shoulder height.

CoachStuartMcDougal 05-23-2018 03:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65537)
I'm sorry, I just re-read your comment and my response -- maybe I missed what you were trying to state -- "the arm that's above the surface"... you didn't finish, except to make the point that we sometimes get distracted into thinking each part is a separate department isolated from the other parts. Were you trying to point out here that the arm that's above the surface is not just passively on its way to get to the insertion point so that it can pull again, but rather is part of the momentum-carrying mass that most efficiently is redirected forward again ultimately to re-enter the water and spear at a slighly downward trajectory to impart forward propulsive force? If this is what you meant, yes I do see that the high side arm movement "connects" with the low side / below surface actions.

Yes - and very well said. And if the path and trajectory of the high side arm is wrong, it destabilizes the vessel below (imbalance) which triggers the arm to pull and legs to move (splay) attempting to stabilize/rebalance the platform. I've always heard the swimming mantra through the years, "it's what happens below the surface that counts", but they're missing it's what happens above the surface the vessel below the surface is entirely dependent upon.

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

sclim 05-23-2018 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65541)
So there is my tip "extend to the elbow" not the hand fingertips.

(& no i dont mean "dropping the elbow at forward extention")

Just so I understand:

When you said you were "over-extending" (and then you fixed it), and with your other explanation of years of "long stroking"

did you mean

1) the point of entry of the fingertips of the high side hand was too far in front of your head line (so you fixed it by moving the entry point closer to your head)

or

2) the stretching and extension of the fingertip was allowed to go too far past the elbow of the other arm before the other (previously low side and leading) arm catch started

or

3) you were referring to the stretching effort of your spear only after your hand entered, meaning your stretching effort was from the shoulder all the way to the fingertips, but you found later that stretching the muscles only to the elbow kept the forearm and hand muscles more relaxed.

I think you meant 1), but then I didn't understand

"When i foud best was to focus on only extending to the elbow which keeps the forearm and hand relaxed and useable"

and

"I ended the session with a nice discovery of "riding the elbows" from entry to extention which added stability and all round relaxedness"

Please explain the parts in bold, as I'm not clear on what you mean.

sclim 05-23-2018 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65542)
so basically the highside arms sets your drop and catch under the water as it comes over (from about halfway through the recovery as it nears shoulder height.

Are you saying that as the highside arm passes the shoulder on its forward recovery trajectory, that is the moment that your underwater leading hand starts the finger drop and arm catch? If I understood you correctly, that seems very early -- much earlier even than Tom was referring to when he flagged the Shinji and Terry videos as revealing those demonstrators were beginning the catch even a moment before the highside fingertip entry.

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 05:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65544)
Just so I understand:

When you said you were "over-extending" (and then you fixed it), and with your other explanation of years of "long stroking"

did you mean

1) the point of entry of the fingertips of the high side hand was too far in front of your head line (so you fixed it by moving the entry point closer to your head)

or

2) the stretching and extension of the fingertip was allowed to go too far past the elbow of the other arm before the other (previously low side and leading) arm catch started

or

3) you were referring to the stretching effort of your spear only after your hand entered, meaning your stretching effort was from the shoulder all the way to the fingertips, but you found later that stretching the muscles only to the elbow kept the forearm and hand muscles more relaxed.

I think you meant 1), but then I didn't understand

"When i foud best was to focus on only extending to the elbow which keeps the forearm and hand relaxed and useable"

and

"I ended the session with a nice discovery of "riding the elbows" from entry to extention which added stability and all round relaxedness"

Please explain the parts in bold, as I'm not clear on what you mean.

Hi
i meant 1 & 3

predominately 3

I favoured the straight arm swinger style so i was entering very far out and also extending to max stretch

but i found by dialing it all back it was much more efficient and less taxing
albeit not as quick but i can keep it up for longer

Yes extending to the elbows means deliver the arm with the hip and extend underwater to what the hip rolling down will allow and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf.
This allows the hips / torso rotation to control the stroke so im not swimming from the arms.

&
Riding the elbows is something i found last night when you enter wrist the elbow lean on the elbow as it enters the water it gave stability and i rode the elbow on to the decent and catch

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 05:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65545)
Are you saying that as the highside arm passes the shoulder on its forward recovery trajectory, that is the moment that your underwater leading hand starts the finger drop and arm catch? If I understood you correctly, that seems very early -- much earlier even than Tom was referring to when he flagged the Shinji and Terry videos as revealing those demonstrators were beginning the catch even a moment before the highside fingertip entry.

Yes
you will feel downward pressure on the lowside arm and the recovery arm nears shoulder height
if you dont doggedly try to fight it by sticking to catch up stroke and allow the lowside arm to decend you with find it will automatically make a catch which is ready at the time of highside entry

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 06:03 PM

You allow the lowside arm to descend under pressure from the highside arm

The actual catch anchor lock on is in time with rotation and entry

Just play about with allowing the lowside arm to be affected by the highside arm coming over and you'll see what i mean

sclim 05-23-2018 06:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65546)
Hi
i meant 1 & 3

predominately 3

I favoured the straight arm swinger style so i was entering very far out and also extending to max stretch

but i found by dialing it all back it was much more efficient and less taxing
albeit not as quick but i can keep it up for longer

Yes extending to the elbows means deliver the arm with the hip and extend underwater to what the hip rolling down will allow and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf.
This allows the hips / torso rotation to control the stroke so im not swimming from the arms.

&
Riding the elbows is something i found last night when you enter wrist the elbow lean on the elbow as it enters the water it gave stability and i rode the elbow on to the decent and catch

OK, so you are putting weight on your elbow as the entry reaches wrist level.

Would this be something like the feeling of transferring your hip rolling and forward screwing motion momentum into a downward weight feeling on your elbow?

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 06:06 PM

Extending to the elbows here:

https://youtu.be/z59s13BVDrE

"like a little choo choo train.....like a little choo choo motion" lolz

sclim 05-23-2018 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65548)
You allow the lowside arm to descend under pressure from the highside arm

The actual catch anchor lock on is in time with rotation and entry

Just play about with allowing the lowside arm to be affected by the highside arm coming over and you'll see what i mean

OK I think I get you now. It's a little earlier than I was used to, quite a bit earlier, actually, but it demonstrates to me what a wide variation that people successfully can do in catch synchronization time, or body rotation/entry/kick synchronization for that matter.

I have to try it out.

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 06:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65549)
OK, so you are putting weight on your elbow as the entry reaches wrist level.

Would this be something like the feeling of transferring your hip rolling and forward screwing motion momentum into a downward weight feeling on your elbow?

Yeah the wrist went in and as the elbow went in i leant on it, being as i was delivering the arms from the hip rotation then yes i was probably leaning on it because my high side hip was rolling down.

The whole thing kept me high in the water and very stable rotation probably about 40-45 degrees

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65551)
OK I think I get you now. It's a little earlier than I was used to, quite a bit earlier, actually, but it demonstrates to me what a wide variation that people successfully can do in catch synchronization time, or body rotation/entry/kick synchronization for that matter.

I have to try it out.

Yes basically you gotta get that lowside arm deeper before catch unless you want to do an extreme EVF and being as applying force is optimal with arm just in front of shoulder at catch then i cant see any reason to hold it out straight fighting the pressure from the highside arm unless im looking to do an ian thorpe EVF
(but if you watch him closely his lowside catch it pretty mich with rotation and well back towards the shoulder)

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 06:20 PM

so rather than thrusting forward in a big extention it was more side to side rocking and extend to the elbow
hip rotation controlling / turning over the arms

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 07:01 PM

Incedentally i found extending to the elbows on breaststroke was better too

Its probably all due to avoiding a scapula pritracted catch by extending too far

Mushroomfloat 05-23-2018 10:25 PM

Back from the pool now, did a bit more experimentation

I found that entering half way between the elbow & wrist of the lowside arm was best for me (which shows inwas probably overshooting that before) nice smooth switch.

and head position gelled it all together when i raised it to the water line at my hairline checked my feet and the were sitting just below the sirface at the back, didn't feel banana'd through the torso either and had a good connection to the arms from the hips.

Entry and extention was very shallow finishing lower at full extention about 200mm below tge surface, bit of a high evf taken with rotation actually.

sclim 05-24-2018 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65550)
Extending to the elbows here:

https://youtu.be/z59s13BVDrE

"like a little choo choo train.....like a little choo choo motion" lolz

OK, I see where you take your inspiration from!

I would point out, though, that this video, narrated by Stephan Vidmar, a coach, presumably, advocates a whole slew of principles not aligning with TI's, for instance

1) He advocates an "uphill" alignment -- head higher than shoulders, shoulders higher than hips, hips higher than legs. he has his reasons and rationale, supposedly to give a solid base for a strong leg drive. This may be appropriate for 50m, 100m, 200m sprints, and for the 6 beat kick the swimmer is doing. But I'm a bad leg sinker, and I need all the help I can get not letting my legs down and preserving efficiency for long distances

2) I see and hear the video advice not pushing any further forward than the elbow.

Not saying it's wrong -- just saying it's a different approach than advised by TI. I just can't see that approach 1) would help me at all.

I'm puzzled by 2) though. I have great trouble keeping my spear hand straight. I always seem to have a slight elbow bend. When I really focus I can get the elbow straight when spearing, but it takes a lot of concentration, and I think it wears me out faster. But I couldn't figure out why -- I thought I was just habitually lazy, and when I concentrated on doing this new (for me) action I was sending an unnecessary amount of tension to my elbow/wrist/hand, maybe even to my shoulder/chest too, but I thought with practice I could learn to do it correctly with relaxation.

Your description is the first time I have heard anyone other than me having trouble burning off too much energy by trying to get the spear stretch as straight as possible all the way to the finger tips. I've got to digest this new information a bit more.

Also, further back in your description

"and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf "...

I know some swimmers snug up their cheek to their shoulder, presumably to aid in the streamlining. When I suggested to my TI advisor that I could do this he said not to, as it would drag the head alignment out of the centerline towards the downside arm line, and I would gain very little out of the closeness of cheek to the shoulder and pay a much higher drag price for loss of head axis alignment.

So your reason is more for not using up energy unnecessarily, but there appear to be other good reasons not to.

sclim 05-24-2018 12:34 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65552)
Yeah the wrist went in and as the elbow went in i leant on it, being as i was delivering the arms from the hip rotation then yes i was probably leaning on it because my high side hip was rolling down.

The whole thing kept me high in the water and very stable rotation probably about 40-45 degrees

High in what sense? I ask because your video you showed is promoting a high front end/low back end as a desirable thing, so I want to know which part of your body was kept high by your pushing down on the elbow with hip rotational force.

Mushroomfloat 05-24-2018 02:01 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65558)
High in what sense? I ask because your video you showed is promoting a high front end/low back end as a desirable thing, so I want to know which part of your body was kept high by your pushing down on the elbow with hip rotational force.

All of it!
It added stability that was lost by going narrow and long spear (snug to cheek) this made me lower in the water
leaning on the elbows at entry was like an outrigger which kept me higher

Mushroomfloat 05-24-2018 02:03 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65557)
OK, I see where you take your inspiration from!

I would point out, though, that this video, narrated by Stephan Vidmar, a coach, presumably, advocates a whole slew of principles not aligning with TI's, for instance

1) He advocates an "uphill" alignment -- head higher than shoulders, shoulders higher than hips, hips higher than legs. he has his reasons and rationale, supposedly to give a solid base for a strong leg drive. This may be appropriate for 50m, 100m, 200m sprints, and for the 6 beat kick the swimmer is doing. But I'm a bad leg sinker, and I need all the help I can get not letting my legs down and preserving efficiency for long distances

2) I see and hear the video advice not pushing any further forward than the elbow.

Not saying it's wrong -- just saying it's a different approach than advised by TI. I just can't see that approach 1) would help me at all.

I'm puzzled by 2) though. I have great trouble keeping my spear hand straight. I always seem to have a slight elbow bend. When I really focus I can get the elbow straight when spearing, but it takes a lot of concentration, and I think it wears me out faster. But I couldn't figure out why -- I thought I was just habitually lazy, and when I concentrated on doing this new (for me) action I was sending an unnecessary amount of tension to my elbow/wrist/hand, maybe even to my shoulder/chest too, but I thought with practice I could learn to do it correctly with relaxation.

Your description is the first time I have heard anyone other than me having trouble burning off too much energy by trying to get the spear stretch as straight as possible all the way to the finger tips. I've got to digest this new information a bit more.

Also, further back in your description

"and not stretch the shoulder right up to the cheek like your reaching for a high shelf "...

I know some swimmers snug up their cheek to their shoulder, presumably to aid in the streamlining. When I suggested to my TI advisor that I could do this he said not to, as it would drag the head alignment out of the centerline towards the downside arm line, and I would gain very little out of the closeness of cheek to the shoulder and pay a much higher drag price for loss of head axis alignment.

So your reason is more for not using up energy unnecessarily, but there appear to be other good reasons not to.

I have basically geavitated to that via trial & error

Also i found that if you look closely you can see her elbow hit the water before her hand this is kind of what ive been doing too
the almost strike together

Mushroomfloat 05-24-2018 02:07 AM

Probably not a distance stroke but it is fantastic, if you can batter out 8 lengths of the pool like that then you are king!

Incedentally the triathlon pullbuoy crowd at my local tonight all disappeared within 10 mins of me opening up with my new found tricks lol

Mushroomfloat 05-24-2018 02:15 AM

ive been a head straight down stalwart for the last 2 yrs and now i think it cops some drag but more importantly i seem to be able to turn the arms over easier with it slightly up, with it right down i can pull behind the scapular plane if im not carefull.

Certainly felt i could get more leverage with it up recruiting the lats more

Mushroomfloat 05-24-2018 02:23 AM

somewhere in taht video he talks about inly extending to the elbow and keeping thr hands light gives a high body poisition as the blade whips through

Mushroomfloat 05-24-2018 02:35 AM

the thing with going super long extension is you have to unwind the whole thing which is where i think the energy is burned.

Im not a sea swimmer but with a current i could see that going nowhere fast.

The stroke feels shorter but faster & easier energy wise.

Need to experiment more and see if its appropriate to distance.

WFEGb 05-30-2018 08:52 AM

Hello,

the thread calmed down, but was fascinated from this and from the original thread before! Even ZT threw in a post, hoped he'll become a poster one and then again... Some questions popped up when reading the posts...

- Think the origins are fairly high-leveled. How do you find "hooks" and ways to improve? Seemed the origin layed in work on a 2BK and went to the timing of kick-catch-press and FQ-questions.

- Are we aware, we're talking of stroke-parts timed in fractions of tenth of seconds? Are there special views to our drills, to address just these special hundredth? Or are there special drills anywhere to such special miniparts? Sclim, think in martial arts the times are even shorter, how do you pin point similar parts there?

- One of the (for me) typical TI-feelings often arose again: It's all open and there, lying in front, no secrets anywhere... and no need where you look in your stroke, you'll find secrets everywhere... Which may be a deep secrect itself...

- Especially for the self coaching swimmers: Is there a possiblility to find a shorter way to find the improving of these tiny but at least so worthy variations than trying many and drifting away to worst changings?... without help from outside. (Because in these things most outstanding observers will have difficulties to identify what we would like to be seen... Even as a coach often my question to the student is: How did it feel? What was the felt difference?)

- Shouldn't we be careful, not mixing physical arguments and feelings? (When trying to explain some static or dynamic facts of swimming my arguments have to be physical founded, when trying to teach the same things I most often tend to address it with words of feelings...) FE, the feeling to throw the recovery arm from the hips will be a much different feeling to the one the elbow swings out wide or wrist should pull your body forward. (Although in Germany we have Baron Münchhausen, who pulled himself with his own hands on his own hairs out of a swamp, it's for smiling but physical nonsense at least...)

- What a genius Terry has been to to bring so many of us to this level of enjoying discussion and related applications in practice?

Sclim, far away from the original thread and the follow up, excuse please, but sometimes I simply can't resist... (Would like I could say the same about my streamline...)

Best regards,
Werner

sclim 05-30-2018 05:37 PM

Funny you should bring it up, but I find the topic still of great interest and current focus.

I just came back from swimming this morning, and although I have been very tired, I forced myself to swim 700m, and despite the great fatigue (from other bike and running overload -- for instance yesterday I swam 1100m and biked to and from pool, then rode 40k on highway, today I ran 5k to and from pool this am).

Being physically tired, it prevented me from overcoming lesser technique with pure physical force, so that's a good thing. But being tired, also loaded my mind, making it rather hard to stay focussed. However, I was struck by how well I could control some parts of the rotation. For instance, I was really able to play with delaying the shoulder girdle rotation during the mail-slot entry -- I varied it from rotating down quite early at the time of finer-tip entry as usual, and to the other extreme, to a marked delay, which was an odd feeling initially, with a very high shoulder it seemed, despite the fingertips hitting the water at that moment in time, and then the shoulder and trunk suddenly rotating rapidly to catch up with the rotation phase of the finger tips. I eventually made it feel quite natural, in the end. It felt that I could harness the delayed coiled up force of the trunk in that resulting spiral corkscrewing spring motion in quite an energy sparing way. I couldn't see the result yet as a better SPL or delayed fatigue, but it is still early days yet, and I am very encouraged that it is feeling quite natural and easier.

But I am struck with how I feel I now have better rotation balance control -- at least enough control to micro-tune the delay as I have just described. Prior to this I don't think I had the rotational balance control to be able to do this -- but of course, at the time I didn't recognize my lack of rotational control until after I had moved my skill level up a bit to demonstrate the experimental moving the rotational phase back and forth like that!

I do take your point about the difficulty being sure that the "feeling" we describe of a movement being exactly what is happening in physics, as, for example compared to an external observer's description if he was commentating while viewing a slow motion video of the same action sequence. One's thoughtful analysis of what we think is happening as we do the movement over and over again hopefully gets more accurate over time, but then not necessarily so!

Mushroomfloat 06-01-2018 11:26 AM

Okay i owe an apology!

I tried staying up until fingertips pierce the water and wow yes i see now,

Some points i found

Balance off the palm

Rotation is from the hips but also each hip edge is nudged forwards on each skate

now the biggie! : there is a longitundinal spring like coil motion through the body at speed almost like you are couling up and releasing
i was stitching along like a sewing machine

Mushroomfloat 06-01-2018 11:28 AM

i think there may have been some sort of counter rotational twist between the hips and shoulders

Either way i was bloody flying and sitting right on top of the water in a slight rise & fall motion

Patient lead hand! resist that early drawback

Mushroomfloat 06-01-2018 11:30 AM

I felt like Thorpe.

Mushroomfloat 06-01-2018 11:38 AM

I can increase or decrease stroke length too and it was fast but i can't see how stroke rate can be increased?

Mushroomfloat 06-01-2018 11:40 AM

I went from earhop all the way to straight arm and everything in between

Mushroomfloat 06-01-2018 11:41 AM

Actually thinking about it i can probably increase strike rate with straight arm a'la shelly ripple style

sclim 06-01-2018 07:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65622)
now the biggie! : there is a longitundinal spring like coil motion through the body at speed almost like you are couling up and releasing
i was stitching along like a sewing machine

Yeah, this caught me by surprise, too. Funny, I'd read about this phenomenon some time ago, but it got lost in the noise of everything trying to happen, or I couldn't make it happen for me, or something. I think that before it can happen you have to reach a certain basic level of competence re: front and back balance, rotational balance and control, as well as enough confidence in those abilities to be able to sit back calmly and focus to just see what happens; and before this point I had not gelled those skills yet.

Tom Pamperin 06-02-2018 05:31 AM

So it seems like the "don't rotate until spearing hand hits the water" idea is gaining ground here. It really has changed the way I swim, or at least how it feels to me.

Tom


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