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-   -   Inspiration needed (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=4298)

CharlesCouturier 03-28-2013 01:34 AM

Inspiration needed
 
Hi everyone.

I would really really like to start thinking of a way of finally be able to answer the question as to what swim speed are most people entitled to, per gender and age group, given
- Fair hydrodynamic profile
- Power is being applied correctly

-----

This question isn't that easy as it first might seem.

Here's what my first biggest issue would be.

Ask any top level marathoner to perform a very light jog, 9min per miles, they can do that easily. Ask a tour de france rider to ride a bike with their young daughter at 12mph, they sure can.

Ask any good level swimmer to swim as slow as most of you guys would dream of swimming over 1500 (ie, 25min), they can't. Well they can, but at what cost. Some will have to seriously alter their stroke in order to loose enough speed to hold 1:40/100m. It's been reported in fact.

Now, we're talking 1:40/100m... Can you for one second imagine 2min/100m? There you lost most elite swimmers. They just can't move in the water that slow. Now what does it mean???

The best possible path I am thinking of would be to be able to use some sort of techno paddles that can measure force (and say rate for estimating power) and thus measure the power needed by an elite swimmer to hold 2min per 100m, after teaching him how to go that slow (with a few classes, it's probably feasible).

So there goes my first question. What would this number be? Ridiculously low? Sooooo low that just about anyone in a decent shape could produce?

How can these things be studied in your opinion. Anyone heard about techno equipement that has been used to measure (or estimate) power required to move forward?

Why is it that elite just can not swim as slow as most people here would dream of swimming...

What pace should everyone be able to hold, given fair hydrodynamic profile (that implies good balance, tone body, smart core, and everything you need to NOT make drag).

It's becoming increasingly difficult for me as a coach to passively witness people struggling to hold extreme slow pace. I won't be able to stand it for so many more years, forget it...

tony0000 03-28-2013 05:40 AM

Charles,

Not quite sure what you're problem is. Projecting a bit, I imagine that people are asking you, "How fast should I be able to swim given that I'm a 54 year old man, 170 lbs, and [whatever]?" You'd like to be able to provide a reasonable answer grounded in data. It's true that in swimming, unlike in running and biking, going fast does not imply the ability to go slow. But why should that fact prevent you from gathering the sort of data you need to answer the question? Just find a 54 year old man who's 170 lbs (like me) and find out how fast he can swim.

Sorry if I'm missing the point. It's late at night.

Tony

mjm 03-28-2013 01:39 PM

Constant Speed
 
Charles: interesting question. This company measures power and velocity in swimming: http://teamtermin.com/

Also, here is an interesting discussion of their findings:
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.ph...light=sensors]

Team Termin concluded from their data that the fastest swimmers have the least difference between their greatest and least speed--not the most power. In other words, fast swimmers MAINTAIN their constant pace better than slow swimmers.

So for a fast swimmer to go slow he or she would need to speed up then slow down continually during the stroke cycle. Obviously hard for them to do. Otherwise, they could introduce drag like our friend GR who said during his video series that he pointed his toes down and went from swimming 1:15/100 to 1:40/100. YMMV. Mike

CoachSuzanne 03-28-2013 05:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjm (Post 35151)
Charles: interesting question. This company measures power and velocity in swimming: http://teamtermin.com/

Also, here is an interesting discussion of their findings:
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.ph...hlight=sensors

Team Termin concluded from their data that the fastest swimmers have the least difference between their greatest and least speed--not the most power. In other words, fast swimmers MAINTAIN their constant pace better than slow swimmers.

So for a fast swimmer to go slow he or she would need to speed up then slow down continually during the stroke cycle. Obviously hard for them to do. Otherwise, they could introduce drag like our friend GR who said during his video series that he pointed his toes down and went from swimming 1:15/100 to 1:40/100. YMMV. Mike

Or fast swimmers create the least drag...

CharlesCouturier 03-28-2013 05:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by mjm (Post 35151)
Charles: interesting question. This company measures power and velocity in swimming: http://teamtermin.com/

Also, here is an interesting discussion of their findings:
http://forums.usms.org/showthread.ph...hlight=sensors

Team Termin concluded from their data that the fastest swimmers have the least difference between their greatest and least speed--not the most power. In other words, fast swimmers MAINTAIN their constant pace better than slow swimmers.

So for a fast swimmer to go slow he or she would need to speed up then slow down continually during the stroke cycle. Obviously hard for them to do. Otherwise, they could introduce drag like our friend GR who said during his video series that he pointed his toes down and went from swimming 1:15/100 to 1:40/100. YMMV. Mike

team Termin's conclusion doesn't surprise me at all. Deceleration/acceleration will never be the most efficient (energy wise) way to move forward in the water.

That you soooo much for these 2 links, it's exactly the sort of info I'm looking for. Unfortunately, the 2nd link points to nowhere, product may have been retired from the market.

I like the velocity analysis idea, but I'm not good enough at physics to know if this could be used as a reliable means of estimating power actually being applied.

dprevish 03-28-2013 06:47 PM

A different take
 
Charles,

I saw this post and was fascinated by it. Maybe I misread your post, but I think to find a metric by which to measure the propulsive forces that are applied though would perhaps be not as accurate as a measurement of drag resistance (or lack thereof).
I say this from observation of real world scenarios. One of coach Suzanne's posts about a month or so ago documented that she is down in the low 1:20s on her speed/100yds (or meters?), nevertheless, she also said in the same post that she could do about 40 push ups at any given time. This attests to the truth that she is moving very quickly (I'd aspire to that time) with a low threshold of upper body power. This I think closely converts (along with lats strength) to the propulsive force you'd be measuring.
At my best time/100 I'm at 1:31 and that's balls to the walls power. However, from other training and core work I generally can do about 7-800 push ups in a 20min. span and maybe 200 pull ups in that time. I'm not an exercise psysiologist mind you (can't even spell it), but you'd think I could sprint through the water like a bullet given some of this power potential; not so much!
This may also explain why it's hard for an elite swimmer to slow down, as so much of their speed is derived from all the stuff all us TI folks are trying to get better at: balance, steamlining, so forth. How does a person "un-streamline" or "de-balance".
So I think, as many of us do, that the "motor", while important is so ancillary to the technique, that even a measure of power would be inconclusive of potential.
Just seemed interesting and fun to comment on.
While on the thought of a measurement system though. I have wondered about some sort of "on board" microprocessor" that one could wear swimming that would give real time feedback of either increases or decreases in speed. If the feedback was there while swimming, I would be able to quickly know when I was going faster (or slower) and perhaps pinpoint the slight adjustments from proprioception and learn faster. All in theory.

mjm 03-28-2013 06:56 PM

Corrected Link
 
Charles: see the corrected link to the USMS discussion forum involving Team Termin in my first post above.

Coach S: agreed. Least drag = fast. Least change in speed = fast.

Least drag = least change in speed.

Mike

CoachToby 03-28-2013 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dprevish (Post 35155)
One of coach Suzanne's posts about a month or so ago documented that she is down in the low 1:20s on her speed/100yds (or meters?), nevertheless, she also said in the same post that she could do about 40 push ups at any given time. This attests to the truth that she is moving very quickly (I'd aspire to that time) with a low threshold of upper body power. This I think closely converts (along with lats strength) to the propulsive force you'd be measuring.

Notwithstanding your most excellent ability Dave, I think you'll find that most blokes can't do more than about 20 decent push-ups. As you are living proof, ability to do push-ups does not reflect an ability to swim fast. I'd guess if you spent as much time improving your balance and streamlining skills as you spend doing push-ups, you may one day be as fast as CoachSuzanne :-).

andyinnorway 03-28-2013 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachToby (Post 35158)
Notwithstanding your most excellent ability Dave, I think you'll find that most blokes can't do more than about 20 decent push-ups. As you are living proof, ability to do push-ups does not reflect an ability to swim fast. I'd guess if you spent as much time improving your balance and streamlining skills as you spend doing push-ups, you may one day be as fast as CoachSuzanne :-).

800 pushups in 20 mins, I think that counts as perpetual motion push ups.

Charles, I'm sure if you paid them these swimmers could manage a 1.40 or 2.00 100m, just tell them to balance, flick their toe and breath every 5 seconds. 20spm and no push off?, I"m sure their balance can handle it? its just a slow motion drill. 1.40 would be 8SPL and if they get the slow motion right their SPL should be the same as at 80spm?, just don't let them kick 16 beat or something crazy.

dprevish 03-29-2013 02:39 AM

Toby,

Quite, too true, "perpetual motion push ups" do not equate to speed in the water!


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