Rolling like a log?
 

Personally, I am moving gradually away from the rolling like a log idea.
To be more precise, the length of the log is shrinking to a part that is formed by hips and a flat lowerback. Thats left as the rotating eye of the tornado.
The rest is free to move and be used as part of the kinetic chain.
By shortening the log to this smaller part more muscles in the body can be used to support and control the stroke.
More muscles requires more control, but its worth the effort. Swimming like a running cheetah is my new ideal movement idea.
It feels very liberating to be released from the restrictive log model.
Probably more people have some kind of personal rigid ideal mental model in their heads.
Never stop questioning if this rigid model is really helping you forward.

Hello ZT,

first let me say, an orthopaedist told me turning shoulder against hip or vice versa isn't as dangerous in swimming as in playing Golf or Squash (my most liked sport for some thirty years...), because the spine is not additionally loaded with weight while moving. So there will be some degree of healthy freedom in your experiments...

When reading this (with my TI-eyes) the thought of the body towed from the head in front is a much more stable one, than to carry a streamlined form if the head and upper body has to be held aligned while being (seperated) pushed from your powerhouse. That's more like the kayak in four pieces (head-upper body-powerhouse-legs) held by joints.

Yees, but the chain will be much more streamlined if towed from one end than pushed from the middle.

But we'll have to decide, if this "new/old" freedom will hold the best streamline or if the freedom leads us to do more breaks of it. At least I think streamline is an extremely restrictive model, and we should weigh very carefully if the new freedom is worth breaking this principle.

The chain- or wave-model seems to me to be a good one. The log-model should not be seen as restriction, but more as the solid-body-model that doesn't exist in reality.

The band width for experiments from "inside" may be fairly large. Remember a student who asked me to show the difference between hip- and shoulder driven FS. I did and felt an extreme difference... but he couldn't realize it before I swam again with which I thought was an exaggerated exaggeration.

This is not only true for the rigid model but for everything. Sometimes jealous about what you can ask so everything...

Best regards,
Werner

We will see how it goes. Its all just an opinion based on current experience.

Your statements about streamline would be a lot more meaningfull if you would have objective information about optimal streamline shapes.
As discussed in the streamline ABC, you dont have any, so your guess is as good as mine.
I agree off course, that at some point, it gets obvious that a certain posture or movement isnt streamlined anymore, but there is a pretty large grey movement space to move through where hard conclusions about the streamline consequences cant be drawn.
Within this range I am trying to find out how to add as much building blocks as possible in the kinetic chain.
Finding the optimal compromise between propulsion and drag.
Like you said, things can feel quite different inside while it looks more or less the same from the outside.
An experienced coach will see the difference right away though I guess.

Rolling like a log isnt bad, but I think its bit like a chain with long steel rods.
Thats better than a chain with to weak elastic bands between the shakles, but a chain with shorter pieces of steel rod in between works better as a chain.
I you understand what I mean ;-)

The idea of a kayak is also just an idea. We are a a mass of muscles and bones. Keeping everyting tight as a kayak isnt my idea of optimal effective movement. It has to be kept pretty tight though. But how tight? And where exactly?
Always some questions left to keep us occupied in the pool.

Hi ZT, sometimes your discussions about how to optimize swimming technique seem to assume an unrealistic form, so I would like to ask you some questions. What tools do you have available to study your own swimming? Do you film yourself? Do you discuss your technique with other people who watch you swim? Do you have hydrodynamic drag models to study what shapes your body makes in the water and how much drag they produce? I know you spend a lot of time studying video of other people swimming, but when you try to imitate them, what tools do you have available to judge your success in this?

For most of us, if we had unlimited resources, we would analyze our swimming very differently from the way we are currently doing it. In my case, I got a lot out of filming myself, except that I started to feel like I was spending more time at the pool working to get good shots than I was spending swimming. So I have (unfortunately) given up on that. These days, I use my own very subjective feeling as well as the other basic tools such as timing myself, SPL and TT. I do experiments, but in the end my assessment of the results is all based on feeling, and I know from watching film of myself how misleading this feeling can sometimes be. So what objective measures do you have of your own swimming?

half an hour of typing lost in cyberspace again.

in short:
had a few coaches and more than 10 good swimmers take a look to point out flaws.
Looked pretty good with a few minor flaws.
Swum in pool with mirrorlike bottom. No nasty surprises.
Dont have footage.

dryland muscle memory of certain movement -> transfer to pool muscle memory.
make this pool memory a habit.
Master building blocks. Store memory of good execution in memory.
Scan all buildingblocks feedback during stroke. Repair disfunctioning building blocks during stroke while fresh as much as possible.

Hi ZT, the first paragraph you wrote above sounds like objective feedback on your swimming. The second paragraph sounds more like a description of how you teach yourself stuff. The reason I am being so picky is because you are claiming to Werner and others that all of this should be resolved using objective measures and (if I understand you correctly) that those objective measures aren't that hard to get. It seems to me that the objective measures you have used for yourself aren't what I would wish for if I were trying to resolve fundamental issues about swimming technique. This is not to say that you haven't been successful in teaching yourself good technique. Rather it is only to point out that the primary check you have on your technique is either subjective feeling or timing yourself. Those are both very good sources of feedback, but only the second one (timing yourself) is objective.

I think that most of us are in your situation, and you have probably done a better job with the resources at your disposal than, for example, I have. But none of us really have much in the way of objective measures of our swimming technique, aside from timing and stroke count. This is why so many of the issues we discuss on this forum are so difficult to resolve.

With objective measures I mean knowing how a certain swim stroke translates to a certain efficiency.
Even with the best footage its impossible to precisely say whats right or wrong.
TI assumes a certain style or streamlined position is best, but they cant proove it.
Neither can other swim schools.
So within certain limits we all are moving in an uncertain grey zone where the only tools are speed and relative effort to guide us to our personal optimal stroke.

An uncertainty about the spine bending for example:
The resultant arm force is acting outside the centerline, certainly if you pull on wide tracks.
This steers your vessel to the other side. making it move a bit from side to side.
Bending the spine a bit together with the pulling arm countersteers this effect, naking the upperbody move straight forward instead of slightly sideways.
This slight spine bending happens to also be the natural action to deliver maxinal force with the upperbody. We are talking details, but not beyond perception.
Nobody knows exactly what is optimal.

Hello ZT and Danny,

we posted in another thread about objectives and the difficulties of measurement too. If I remember right, ZT posted streamline can be ovserved and measured nearly easy.

Please have in mind, Terry developed TI mainly for adult upset swimmers. Health on very first and as most effortless endurance as possible second and velocitiy and power anywhere later on. As Coach I do really tend to say the first two are prooved. At least in a statistic way from some (hundred?)thousands swimmers.

Yes, but we are often mixing our experience with the assumptions to what we think why elites are doing somethings. So my measurements for a l ap are most precise with counting SPL and knowing what my TT is set to. A far too rough tool for elites and their coaches.

Back to thread's title, some things seeming clear (to me):

If you don't swim like a log and adding an angle between hips and shoulders you are expanding your surface watched from front and this must produce additional drag. We all know how different a well speared arm feels to a (more) drag producing with hand's position just some cm away. And both shoulders out of (stream)line will add more surface then these cm. I'll admit, drag produced by turned shoulders is more difficult to feel and realize, because it's body-driven.

Well that's physics, but the "wide" tracks are more a "to be felt picture" (and even more for the recovery arm). They are on shoulder width and not as wide as possbile. So the tracks should be in an optimum for health(!), and best compromise in leverages between propulsion and disruption of direction. Our picture of "hand holding place" seems extremely helpful for that (to me). And body rotation will also help to get a not as large lever.

ZT, once you posted a link to excavators driving tree trunks. Think this would be impossible to do with tree trunks with joints in the middle but like "long logs".

I'd tell my students to try to get their necessary countersteers in a more balanced way from a logged body, the opposite spearing arm and optimized levers while rolling (with imagining holded hand on track)...

ZT, you're doubting the kayak-principle. Hmm... But it is easier to throw a rigid spear away than a three-parted. And if you'll throw a three-parted, it will be easier to put your force-atackpoint into the first part. That's about stable and instable equilibrium. It does not mean there aren't artists who can throw their three-parted spears much farther than I my rigid one... or throw it much farther attacking on the last part than I attacking in the first... (And if you'll start learning balancing a boomstick on your fingertips you should not start with a three-parted one...)

Yes, and at least everyone has to decide for himself what's optimal overall inside.

Some weeks ago I had a shower-chat with an extremely powerful but as inefficient swimmer. Me:"You are swimming with extreme power into every stroke..." He laughing:"Yes! That's why I do it. And when I go home I do feel as the luckiest man in the world, everytime!" So we talked on about well being in the water and the life itself. He definitely wasn't/isn't a TI-swimmer...

We should go on thinking, trying, talking and dreaming...

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Still dreaming about forum's silver-surfers meeting anywhere in the world. (Didn't talk with him, but think Terry would join us, if somehow possible...)

ZT, I think I agree with your comments above about objective measures.

Concerning wide tracks, it seems to me that looking at pictures of arm strokes in elite swimmers years ago, the S-shaped pull led to an arm stroke under the body. Of course, if the body is rotated enough, this pull is from the side in the water anyway, but I think if the body has a small enough rotation than the stroke is under the body and doesn't torque as much. My experience paddling a canoe is that at the end of each stroke you need to issue a correction for the torque, especially if you are the only person paddling. Anyway, if you finish your stroke with your elbow away from your body, your hand will be closer to your center line.

I wrote a long reply but basically my conclusion can be summarised as...

* Forget what you look like, the only objective measurement that matters is the wall clock.
* Symmetry in your stroke has no relation to speed.
* A scrappy looking swimmer can be a fast efficient swimmer.
* 'Feel for the water' is a myth so find a stroke that works without finesse.

With that in mind is video analysis always that helpful?

Swimming isn't a scientific paper. It doesn't have to survive the process of peer review. You just have to beat them in the water.

Hello ScoopUK,

strange, but you're still in this forum? Too bad, if this should be your last post.
If your goal is to swim look like Shinji, the wall clock will become at least secondary....

At very least, the same can be said about asymmetry. But what do you think has?

Might be necessary to define "efficence" in a new way...

Might be, this myth is a necessary finesse you can't miss, even if you think you're Swimming without any finesse...

Do not take it the wrong way :-)

Best regards,
Werner

?? Did I miss anything?

Salvo

No, I'm not going anywhere. I don't participate in all the discussions as I don't always have anything worthwhile to say. I do integrate quite a lot of TI drills into my swimming and like swimming that style in the pool so I still get a lot from the forum.

That is not my goal. Swimming laps in synchronised harmony with someone else is stunt swimming, not competitive swimming although of course I acknowledge he is not slow either.

To me efficiency is simply a ratio of speed to energy cost. Theoretical hydrodynamics is good on paper but a human is a moving body, not a solid vessel that doesn't change shape. Some very good swimmers will have a different pull on their left side to their right for example. One catch may be deeper than the other, one arm straighter than the other, one more under the body than the other. Why do we assume to be symmetrical must be better? The human body hasn't evolved symmetrical after all.

Terry talks about imprinting a neural pattern so deeply that you can perform it even when under fatigue or challenging conditions. This is a noble aim. He achieves this by a martial arts style rigorous approach to his training, practising only good movements, taking as much rest as is necessary to perform the next set well. This proves even with hours in the water there is no instinctive 'feel' for the water however much you train, you have to program a movement pattern. A professional distance swimmer may swim 7+ KMs in a workout twice a day so they need a stroke that performs well under fatigue and is repeatable. There is no point your swim falling apart at the end of a 800m/1500m/5k/10k because you can't perform it under stress or when your body or central nervous system are fatigued.

Another approach to achieve the same result is to find a stroke that requires less conscious effort to hold together. I acknowledge that may require a bit more traditional aerobic/threshold conditioning which is contrary to TIs philosophy of fitness being a byproduct. There is a reason swim teams get very little rest between sets.

I always like discussion and don't take contrary opinion personally.

I like that summary of your point of view. There is something to be said for presenting your opinion concisely, but your subsequent comments seem to contradict the above view if I understand them. Why do you like swimming TI-style? The best motivation for swimming TI-style that I know of is that it feels good. Is that something you care about? It is, of course, possible to have multiple goals when swimming. You can be a competitive swimmer and also swim because you enjoy the feeling. I have tried scrappy swimming, especially when I was younger and more fit, and I never enjoyed it, even though I got a great workout. It reminds me of a discussion I once had with someone about running in deep snow. His contention was that there is no better workout. My contention was that it was torture. Probably we both are right. Just like some people enjoy scrappy swimming, some people enjoy running in deep snow. The important thing is to know which type of person you are.

As far as which type of swimming is faster, I agree with you that this depends on who you are. Again, the important thing is to know yourself, what you enjoy, and what you do best.

Hello SkoopUK,

you just ensured, you've much more understood about TI than you may admit in the post before :-)

Glad you're (still) with us in the forum!

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Salvo, think you didn't miss anything...

I do like the relaxed sensation when swimming TI style. I like the sense of balance. Especially swimming slowly. If you can swim slowly in balance you are doing many things well. I think it is a great foundation regardless of what your preferred stroke style is.

I have the books and a hard drive full of all the videos I have purchased. I even have the T-shirt! I was also coached by a TI coach. I'm well in the TI program.

Hello ScoopUK,

You should wear it with proudly swollen breast :-)

Best regards,
Werner

Is Dave Scott reading this forum?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRR3Qt756iI

Werner, imagine having a 40 x 100 cm plank en pulling that plank through the water while rotating that plank back and forth at the same time. Can you imagine how much force that takes?
Now imagine that plank being flexible so it can twist a bit while you rotate and pull it throug the water. Is this costing more or less energy? The flexible plank is easier to pull through the water while rotatiing.
A plank is stupid and a body can be smarter than a flexible plank. A smart flexible body is much more eficient than a dead treetrunc in combined propulsion and drag optimisation.(dolphin)
Only when the body is drawn through the water without rotation a stiff body held in optimal shape is better.
And a stiff body is better than a wrong moving body offcourse.
Maybe its also because TI likes the body traveling forward statically on the edge for a long time with short shifts to the other edge. Glide on edge--shift---glide on edge.
During that glide on edge its not effective to have your body twisted. Thats where your idea is coming from that keeping everything in line is better from a streamline perspective.

If you like the continuous roll model better, then the continuous change of twistangle is more effective (for optimal propulsion drag compromise). Thats my favorite model , although the difference its not completely black and white.

The often expressed criticism of TI swimmers (not that I am necessarily seeing this attitude his discussion here) is that they just swim slowly misses the points that these slow TI swimmers may not have been swimmers at all if not for TI, that these slow swimmers may not care that they are swimming slowly because they are enjoying their sensual TI feedback so much that this state of affairs is just right for them, or lastly some f these slow swimmers are training slowly because they acknowledge that some of the efficient swimming skills have to be deeply ingrained before they can be trusted not to disintegrate under increasing power intensity pressure.

Surely it is logical that you can increase speed by increasing distance per stroke or by increasing stroke rate or by both. TI teaches that distance per stroke is the most elusive and subtle parameter to achieve and maintain, therefore it is the factor that should be kept most in mind. Which is not to say that TI practitioners do not value the increase in stroke rate or training in sheer power or endurance. It's just that these increases and improvements should be viewed still keeping an eye on your previously hard won stroke efficiency, to make sure tha latter quality does not degrade.

So the question should be for those that acknowledge their own swimming asymmetry is why are they asymmetrical, and with that asymmetry, do they think that each half stroke is as efficient as its mate on the other side? From my difficult, almost painful journey through inefficiency to get to my current level, I know how hard any level of efficiency is to achieve. Therefore, from my perspective, it would seem natural to assume that the asymmetrical swimmer has one side that is more efficient than the other. Unless that swimmer has an obvious uncorrectable anatomical anomaly such as a missing or non-normal limb, it would seem that this less efficient side should be identifiable and then targeted for improvement, even though that process of identification and change might be very difficult. This assumes of course, that the end product of increased speed is the ultimate desired product.

I don't know if I am speaking out of turn here, or even if I am remotely qualified to give an informed opinion. It's just that what slow but real progress I have made as an adult onset real swimmer seems to have come through accepting some underlying principles and always applying them. I am reasonably fit, in fact as a runner I would say I am at the top of my age group capability, so I have doubts about my ability to get much faster as a swimmer just by developing my local muscle strength or cardiovascular capacity. That just leaves efficiency and mechanical coordination as avenues of improvement. To me the logic is inescapable

i find when side drilling i have the shoulders about 60degrees
but the hips about 45deg ie highside hip cocked down

so a twist in the body

this allows water to come in with minimal resistance profile from shoulders

and then "slip out" from under the highside hip

i find you only need to rotate hips to get the "wing" (iliac creast) out of the way and let the water slip out from under it

if i lock hips to shoulders im unbalanced

Hello ZT,

Think you've my answer some lines down yourself :-) At least pulling or pushing through the water will be easier done with a log than with a rubber-block. And some rotation is necessary for a recovery (or it will become uncomfortabel and highly inefficient). If you simply undock hips and shoulders -or twist the front of the rubber-block- you'll find automatically loss in streamline or balance-issues caused by miss-alignment or in the rubber-case internal friction losses.

The dolphin is a wrong example here. He's getting his whole forward-movement from well tuned movement of is body-muscles. That's what some elites show the first meters after turn or at start, not FS, quite complicated and difficult, because most of us don't have dolphin like muscles, their admirable coordination skills and feet like dolphin-flukes... If I remember right, fishes which swim forward with help of their fins are always stiffen their core, unless they want to go right or left.

See above... But the rotation doesn't matter. It's "simply" easier to lock hips and shoulders... and (might be more important) healthier for the lower spine.

Yes, "Hold the line (in skate)" - "Draw the line (recovery-fingers)" - "Switch (Spear and rotation)" is a mantra in our beginners courses. But as posted several times, later on "Hold the line" will be modified to "..and set the catch"...

Just today I realized it's difficult to distinguish from tuned continues roll in rhythm to hold the edge during the recovery. Where I found the latter offers more powerful spears and helps "effortless without loosing energy" rotation to the other side, if (and only if) I do not undock my hips and shoulders.

Black and White... Seems to me everything in swimming (and not only) is modyfied individualy. I recognize all my students just by having a short look at their recovery from outside, although they are doing well...

Best regards,
Werner

I dont agree with a lot of your points, but about rolling like a log.

KPN rolls almost like alog, and it works for her, Thorpe has much more twist and it works for him.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1AwgCVdjC4

so , no general conclusions can be drawn. Alot depends on personal preference and ability.

Hello ZT,

Yes, but what is best (easiest to learn?) to be taught and have the next improvement in mind?

And as mentioned sometimes, how to decide to pick a single point (and which?) from one of the elites, if I'm not able to do all the rest as she does? (That's personal preference too.)

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Anything else would be a historical event :-)

the rolling like a log idea is probably the most simple mental model to stick to for learning for the most people.

See, we can agree sometimes....-)