Hello ScoopUK,

strange, but you're still in this forum? Too bad, if this should be your last post.
If your goal is to swim look like Shinji, the wall clock will become at least secondary....

At very least, the same can be said about asymmetry. But what do you think has?

Might be necessary to define "efficence" in a new way...

Might be, this myth is a necessary finesse you can't miss, even if you think you're Swimming without any finesse...

Do not take it the wrong way :-)

Best regards,
Werner

?? Did I miss anything?

Salvo

No, I'm not going anywhere. I don't participate in all the discussions as I don't always have anything worthwhile to say. I do integrate quite a lot of TI drills into my swimming and like swimming that style in the pool so I still get a lot from the forum.

That is not my goal. Swimming laps in synchronised harmony with someone else is stunt swimming, not competitive swimming although of course I acknowledge he is not slow either.

To me efficiency is simply a ratio of speed to energy cost. Theoretical hydrodynamics is good on paper but a human is a moving body, not a solid vessel that doesn't change shape. Some very good swimmers will have a different pull on their left side to their right for example. One catch may be deeper than the other, one arm straighter than the other, one more under the body than the other. Why do we assume to be symmetrical must be better? The human body hasn't evolved symmetrical after all.

Terry talks about imprinting a neural pattern so deeply that you can perform it even when under fatigue or challenging conditions. This is a noble aim. He achieves this by a martial arts style rigorous approach to his training, practising only good movements, taking as much rest as is necessary to perform the next set well. This proves even with hours in the water there is no instinctive 'feel' for the water however much you train, you have to program a movement pattern. A professional distance swimmer may swim 7+ KMs in a workout twice a day so they need a stroke that performs well under fatigue and is repeatable. There is no point your swim falling apart at the end of a 800m/1500m/5k/10k because you can't perform it under stress or when your body or central nervous system are fatigued.

Another approach to achieve the same result is to find a stroke that requires less conscious effort to hold together. I acknowledge that may require a bit more traditional aerobic/threshold conditioning which is contrary to TIs philosophy of fitness being a byproduct. There is a reason swim teams get very little rest between sets.

I always like discussion and don't take contrary opinion personally.

I like that summary of your point of view. There is something to be said for presenting your opinion concisely, but your subsequent comments seem to contradict the above view if I understand them. Why do you like swimming TI-style? The best motivation for swimming TI-style that I know of is that it feels good. Is that something you care about? It is, of course, possible to have multiple goals when swimming. You can be a competitive swimmer and also swim because you enjoy the feeling. I have tried scrappy swimming, especially when I was younger and more fit, and I never enjoyed it, even though I got a great workout. It reminds me of a discussion I once had with someone about running in deep snow. His contention was that there is no better workout. My contention was that it was torture. Probably we both are right. Just like some people enjoy scrappy swimming, some people enjoy running in deep snow. The important thing is to know which type of person you are.

As far as which type of swimming is faster, I agree with you that this depends on who you are. Again, the important thing is to know yourself, what you enjoy, and what you do best.

Hello SkoopUK,

you just ensured, you've much more understood about TI than you may admit in the post before :-)

Glad you're (still) with us in the forum!

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Salvo, think you didn't miss anything...

I do like the relaxed sensation when swimming TI style. I like the sense of balance. Especially swimming slowly. If you can swim slowly in balance you are doing many things well. I think it is a great foundation regardless of what your preferred stroke style is.

I have the books and a hard drive full of all the videos I have purchased. I even have the T-shirt! I was also coached by a TI coach. I'm well in the TI program.

Hello ScoopUK,

You should wear it with proudly swollen breast :-)

Best regards,
Werner

Is Dave Scott reading this forum?


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iRR3Qt756iI

Werner, imagine having a 40 x 100 cm plank en pulling that plank through the water while rotating that plank back and forth at the same time. Can you imagine how much force that takes?
Now imagine that plank being flexible so it can twist a bit while you rotate and pull it throug the water. Is this costing more or less energy? The flexible plank is easier to pull through the water while rotatiing.
A plank is stupid and a body can be smarter than a flexible plank. A smart flexible body is much more eficient than a dead treetrunc in combined propulsion and drag optimisation.(dolphin)
Only when the body is drawn through the water without rotation a stiff body held in optimal shape is better.
And a stiff body is better than a wrong moving body offcourse.
Maybe its also because TI likes the body traveling forward statically on the edge for a long time with short shifts to the other edge. Glide on edge--shift---glide on edge.
During that glide on edge its not effective to have your body twisted. Thats where your idea is coming from that keeping everything in line is better from a streamline perspective.

If you like the continuous roll model better, then the continuous change of twistangle is more effective (for optimal propulsion drag compromise). Thats my favorite model , although the difference its not completely black and white.

The often expressed criticism of TI swimmers (not that I am necessarily seeing this attitude his discussion here) is that they just swim slowly misses the points that these slow TI swimmers may not have been swimmers at all if not for TI, that these slow swimmers may not care that they are swimming slowly because they are enjoying their sensual TI feedback so much that this state of affairs is just right for them, or lastly some f these slow swimmers are training slowly because they acknowledge that some of the efficient swimming skills have to be deeply ingrained before they can be trusted not to disintegrate under increasing power intensity pressure.

Surely it is logical that you can increase speed by increasing distance per stroke or by increasing stroke rate or by both. TI teaches that distance per stroke is the most elusive and subtle parameter to achieve and maintain, therefore it is the factor that should be kept most in mind. Which is not to say that TI practitioners do not value the increase in stroke rate or training in sheer power or endurance. It's just that these increases and improvements should be viewed still keeping an eye on your previously hard won stroke efficiency, to make sure tha latter quality does not degrade.

So the question should be for those that acknowledge their own swimming asymmetry is why are they asymmetrical, and with that asymmetry, do they think that each half stroke is as efficient as its mate on the other side? From my difficult, almost painful journey through inefficiency to get to my current level, I know how hard any level of efficiency is to achieve. Therefore, from my perspective, it would seem natural to assume that the asymmetrical swimmer has one side that is more efficient than the other. Unless that swimmer has an obvious uncorrectable anatomical anomaly such as a missing or non-normal limb, it would seem that this less efficient side should be identifiable and then targeted for improvement, even though that process of identification and change might be very difficult. This assumes of course, that the end product of increased speed is the ultimate desired product.

I don't know if I am speaking out of turn here, or even if I am remotely qualified to give an informed opinion. It's just that what slow but real progress I have made as an adult onset real swimmer seems to have come through accepting some underlying principles and always applying them. I am reasonably fit, in fact as a runner I would say I am at the top of my age group capability, so I have doubts about my ability to get much faster as a swimmer just by developing my local muscle strength or cardiovascular capacity. That just leaves efficiency and mechanical coordination as avenues of improvement. To me the logic is inescapable