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-   -   Freestyle love/hate relationship (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9236)

WFEGb 08-16-2018 02:53 PM

Hello liolio,

Quote:

I don't know something related to my account. I use chrome by the way, I worked in IT support for a while I used to be comfortable with technology...
I gueess you guys will cope with the missing words, misspelling, etc. lol
Last try: Seems you're privatizing your IP-address in some way? ... Am missing the "Edit"-button too, when logged in with Tor-browser...

Best regards,
Werner

whoiscathy 08-16-2018 05:30 PM

New accounts - editing problem
 
There's no edit button for several "newly" registered accounts and your name is not clickable. I'm the same. it's some kind of account activation/settings problem. I've already tried to sort it with Keith, without success. I tried 2 different laptops, 2 phones and 1 tablet with all sorts of browsers, to no avail.

A trick I found is to edit it through:

I first need to figure out the post number. I can see that when I hoover the mouse over the Quote button. My post is, say, #64967. Then I just put this link in the titlebar https://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/ editpost.php?p=64967&do=editpost (remove the spaces!) and voila, I can edit.

whoiscathy 08-16-2018 05:38 PM

I've been around since November 2017, that's why I put "newly" in quotation marks.... it's a VERY annoying bug!!!

liolio 08-16-2018 08:26 PM

Great thanks!
How is your swimming by the way?

whoiscathy 08-16-2018 09:56 PM

One word: horrendous!

liolio 08-17-2018 10:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 66345)
One word: horrendous!

Well you say that as you are unhappy with the pace at which you are closing in with your goals or because you don't enjoy it?
For me enjoying it is the more important, listen to the skin, the proprioception, the feel of it all. A teacher is insightfull so is you body.

I spend quite sometime fighting with front crawl it start to come together though had I only focus on front crawl I would dare to say that my swimming history would be much more frustrating.
WHen I swim I like to enjoy, so a do some work on front crawl (and for months I pased actually) but I do lot of dolphin undulation at the push when I feel like it. I train to do dolphin on the back (which still feel my sinus... though for some reason less than my dreadful flip turns... lol), I do lots of breaststroke (the most natural stroke for me), I also do a lot back stroke.
Whenever I feel like it I train to dive/starts.

That is a lot of thing to do whereas only my front crawl bothers me, I was slow at first in backstroke, dolphin.. the same it took me a while before I had the arm in front. I did supa slow 50m length doing crappy dolphin kick and breast arm... I mean that can be punishing in many way, it is tiring done wrong and you can get passed by gramma doing gramma's breast => you feel the butthurt slightly lol I see plenty of people that can't go through that they put on palm and what not.
I was not concerned either with my speed in backstroke, I used it a relax stroke, no stress on breathing, supposedly good for you back, etc.
The thing is the feel for the water is the same and you will sure learn things that you will use consciously or not use during front crawl.
Flip turn are also interesting (mine is still quite ridiculous but I know where to go further leverage the head up then down and a lot more relaxation.. such a key word in swimming).

Point is my goal is to be able to swim say a triathlon, short open water event. Now I realized I want and can learn all 4/5 strokes and that I could enjoy also shorter event if my swimming level allows.
It is a state of mind don't get too focused on a single goal or technical element, indeed you can do exercices about this and that but ultimately it is one stroke, as for swimming it is not "reall" about your goal, or even feeling comfortable in the water, it is about YOU spending your freetime in an element you have to like so enjoy. Enjoy is the best motivation there is and there are a lot of thing to enjoy. It is great to have a playbook you want to follow to get from A to B, it never worked for me, it worked for you and might very well keep working though water is many things among which stuborn, it won't bind to anybody's will.

Keep the playbook but you could consider "letting go" a lot more. Swimming is a bout swimming, front wrawl is only.

PS I do not care if you post/hijack in thread in the slightest :) Makes things a little chaotic but that is life and the only known way to get a conversation going. Not everything happen in an expectable manner that is fine (with me at least).

whoiscathy 08-18-2018 09:53 AM

Liolio
 
Mainly my body position that has broken down - I'm not nearly horizontal anymore, but uphill. Stroke count is up, and I'm much slower (ca 30% slower) than I used to be, although I can consistently get air now, and over a long distance, however me swimming that long distance is such a pain to watch. Can't swim with my earlier stroke count/tempo/speed now even if I hold my breath and go one length without breathing.

Could have to do with a substantial, stress-related weight loss and weight distribution change (lost 10% of bodyweight when I had already been very skinny to begin with) and likely, the associated loss of strength (which I can feel), and/or some detrimental technical flaws I got myself into when swimming without coaching/feedback for months, all the while trying to learn to breathe.

whoiscathy 08-18-2018 10:04 AM

Stroke count
 
To give you an idea:

I used to do 25m with 16 strokes without effort, 17-18 as I was getting tired, and could do 15 if I made an effort.

Now 20 is default, 19 is pushing it, and 17 took ALL my mental effort and concentration and I could only do it once during the last month's sessions, for one single length.

Tom65 08-19-2018 04:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 66360)
To give you an idea:

I used to do 25m with 16 strokes without effort, 17-18 as I was getting tired, and could do 15 if I made an effort.

Now 20 is default, 19 is pushing it, and 17 took ALL my mental effort and concentration and I could only do it once during the last month's sessions, for one single length.

I haven't counted my strokes for a long time, I suspect it's over 20 for 25 metres, but at that count I can sprint 25 metres in under 20 seconds from a push off. Last time I raced my daughter in the 50 metre pool I think it took about 42 seconds.

Fair to say I don't count strokes and don't care how many it takes, learning to swim in my late 40's and now being in my 50's able to swim continuously albeit slowly or knock out a fast 50 metres gives me an exercise option for the rest of my life.

Perseverance and not setting goals too high got me to this point.

whoiscathy 08-19-2018 07:03 AM

Good for you. I can't sprint to savd my life. I have non-existent catch and I feel real time as I slip. But even if I had good catch I couldn't recover my arms fast enough for sprinting. I feel tremendous tension in my shoulders. Somrtimes so much it almost hurts.

Tom65 08-19-2018 08:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 66364)
Good for you. I can't sprint to savd my life. I have non-existent catch and I feel real time as I slip. But even if I had good catch I couldn't recover my arms fast enough for sprinting. I feel tremendous tension in my shoulders. Somrtimes so much it almost hurts.

Lucky enough to still have a fair range in my shoulders, compressed nerve C6 to C7 aside.

My shoulders and upper arms hurt a little from about the 150 through to about 300 metres then they settle.

With all due respect to the technicalities of proper swimming, catch to me is keeping the palm facing the wall behind and using as much forearm as possible, from there it's trying to maintain the speed from the push off.

I like to think I've got a good push off, it's one of those crutches you develop to get to the other end before you've attained some swim fitness.

I don't think I'll ever consider swimming to be easy or ever feel truly comfortable doing it but it's been worth the effort.

liolio 08-20-2018 09:50 AM

something that works for me in any stroke is to have my arm relatively relaxed throughout extension only puting "some" muscle at the very end of the movement.
I consciously rotate my humerus externally which helps me further protracting my scapula and elevating one side of the rib cage (internal rotatio got me to bind my spine an imho is a healthy spot to start the motion which further internally rotate the arm). Once I'm "here" I've pretty much nowhere to o but to "fall' into the catch.
the release of tension in the overall shoulder is all the strength I need for the catch.


As for motivation, I believe that it is part of the learning to get it and lose it.
It happens to me all the time, I start to think I'm doing right then discover a better way or a mistake of some sort. I correct it or try and all of the suden my stroke breaks. Soon after I usually avoid speeding to if not consolidate (more on that later) but erase or replace the old (early) habit.
I tink it is good news, I do not want my swim to consolidate too much while it is still plagued by glaring issue. It is seems you are in a pretty flexible spot.
Some people are pretty consistant, ad they consolidate a stroke fast and find it extremely hard to alter. They are used to do volume and given speed, significant changes are almost out of the windows. When I still feel a little down, I look at some people in a "relaxed" club that pretty much make no sensible progres and to me it seems they are swimming significant slower than their level of fitness allows (dam I wish I were that fit, balanced, etc.).

Many will disagree but I would advice to pass as much as possible on tools, especially fins. Learning as its up and down at least wrt the observable short or mid term results, if you like what you are doing keep pushing through, swimming as many sides which will complement whatever you do in freestyle.
Fins and what not, might be useful if used properly. What I see at the pool is pretty a hack and a way to deal with delayed satisfaction. I especially do not believe in the slightest that it helps finding out to kick... in the slightest...
The foot actions are critical. Foot flexion and extension, properly lead by the big toe hence resulting by the use of the proper cinetic (muscles). It is not the case for lots of people (mostly our fucked up shoes shapes). I noticed that lots of good swimmers that migh have practice like forever have wide and healthy foot. The foot actions result in the action of muscles mostly extrinsic yet how cann you feel it with your feet encased in the pretty unflexible toe box of fins?


As for me during my last swim I could not really get into freestyle no matter it felt great in my previous swim. I did not feel like push through it or force it. I spent most of my time doing backstroke and sometime doing "grueling" core training in breaststroke. My streamline is OK but not healthy. My spine is rotated. I work to keep to resisting rotation when I extended forward, during the leg recovery as well as during the kick. There are various muscles, with different strength none of which are bother by my spine position not that willing to pay attention to it either. I stick to it. Breaststroke is my best stroke though at the moment I'm slighty slower than I used to. I don't want to do the same mistakes, detrimetal to my health, that I did unknowingly before, I'm also sure that when I find a proper line I will faster. It keeps me going.

Anyway, have a good one you guys, I would back be in the water soon :)

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-20-2018 03:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 66364)
Good for you. I can't sprint to savd my life. I have non-existent catch and I feel real time as I slip. But even if I had good catch I couldn't recover my arms fast enough for sprinting. I feel tremendous tension in my shoulders. Somrtimes so much it almost hurts.

Hi Cathy,

Tension in the shoulders is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome, far more then tension in the neck - but both are related. Recruiting the shoulder is primal, a response to imbalance. Soft, relaxed shoulders are fluid and move freely; tight tense shoulders are rigid, not fluid or free. Terry used to say “swim with [the feeling of] light shoulders” an excellent focus. Look at any of his videos, notice how soft and “light” his shoulders are: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

To feel what a tense vs soft/light shoulder is like, in Superman (and Skate) drill, extend arms forward using shoulders, bring the shoulders to the ears - feel the discomfort and also become aware of the tension in the neck and chest too. Most will sink of few inches with tension. Then with tension, release the shoulders, allow the shoulder to sit back in its socket - feel the sudden comfort *and* stability (body rises to surface) with relaxed shoulders.

Find out what is causing your imbalance that is recruiting the shoulders to solve unconsciously, as well as use the focal point, “swim with light shoulders”. This will take time, be patient with the process.

Stu
MindBodyAndSWIM.com

daveblt 08-22-2018 01:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 66372)
Hi Cathy,

Tension in the shoulders is one of the biggest obstacles to overcome, far more then tension in the neck - but both are related. Recruiting the shoulder is primal, a response to imbalance. Soft, relaxed shoulders are fluid and move freely; tight tense shoulders are rigid, not fluid or free. Terry used to say “swim with [the feeling of] light shoulders” an excellent focus. Look at any of his videos, notice how soft and “light” his shoulders are: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4

To feel what a tense vs soft/light shoulder is like, in Superman (and Skate) drill, extend arms forward using shoulders, bring the shoulders to the ears - feel the discomfort and also become aware of the tension in the neck and chest too. Most will sink of few inches with tension. Then with tension, release the shoulders, allow the shoulder to sit back in its socket - feel the sudden comfort *and* stability (body rises to surface) with relaxed shoulders.

Find out what is causing your imbalance that is recruiting the shoulders to solve unconsciously, as well as use the focal point, “swim with light shoulders”. This will take time, be patient with the process.

Stu
MindBodyAndSWIM.com





Like I've mentioned before, a pinky entry that is rotated at least just slightly down along with a spear to the far wall that is not fully locked out and with a feeling that you are extending from the shoulder and not the hand seems to help keep tension from the shoulders. A pinky down entry and relaxed but toned arm helps to keep you from balancing off the palm of your hand which turns your arm in to a long stiff lever resulting in late catch and breath timing .

Dave

whoiscathy 08-26-2018 06:36 AM

Stuart
 
Thank you Coach, I'll try the things you say.

However, I'm going through some very rough times and all that stress is physically accumulated in my upper back and shoulders. I'm not really able to relax them even at the breakfast table. I think that's what can be seen on my swimming as well.

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-26-2018 10:08 PM

Hi Cathy,

Sorry to hear about having a rough time as that can certainly increase tension in shoulders, neck and chest. When you get to the pool, try to shut off the outside world and all of its problems and focus on only you, even if for 30 mins. My masters runs in the eves, it can take anywhere from 15-30mins before swimmers can shut off the day's stresses and get into their zone. I can always tell when a swimmer had a really tough day, they come out almost attacking the water. I often will pull them aside, chat with them briefly about what I'm noticing, help get their head into the game - and shortly after they are back in their zone swimming *with* the water in their "zen zone" :-)

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

bx 08-27-2018 12:14 AM

Two thoughts.

1.
During the course of a swim, my freestyle starts off a bit stiff, then gets smoother, then I might hit a super good patch with some great new feeling in whole body connection or catch etc. Then a few minutes later, it fades away.
The body has its own natural intelligence. I like to think the trick is to pay attention to when you get the brief good feeling, don't overanalyse it, and gently try to work back to getting that feeling again.


2.
When my catch is a bit weak and useless, I can swim further and get less out of breath, so it's nice and relaxing.
When my body works out how to get a firmer catch, it takes more energy, and I get puffed out earlier, as my fitness gradually improves.
So, weak catch or firm catch is no problem, it just means my swim is different at that time.

sclim 09-04-2018 03:33 AM

I, too had a love-hate relationship. I hated something about it, now looking back I realize it was insecurity, it was hating my incompetence and being somewhat discouraged by it, and hating the cold water, and thus the first rush of cold as you got in and pushed off. So accepting any excuse not to go in -- too many people in lane, too cold etc. But doggedly showing up at the pool because of very deeply felt desire to keep improving.

But something has changed. I just completed my first IronMan race 2 weeks ago at Mont Tremblant and was really pumped by it. My 3.8k swim was 1:45, including quite a long walk up the beach and up some stairs, better than 2:00 a year ago, so not speedy by any means, but still finishing the swim in good shape, and a solid improvement from last year's try.

I returned to the pool because I still recognized that I still had a long further improvement ahead of me. I have kept on running from home to the pool as part of my training routine, and some days I've even run fast, and end up needing to do a short recovery. But I notice now I'm not thrown off as much when there's lots of people in my lane, and I now hardly dread the initial cold water immersion. And I'm more focussed on the moment, the quality of the stroke, rather than just getting to the end of each length and to the end of the number of laps and the end of the session. In other words I'm starting to enjoy more the moment rather than the hard won satisfaction of getting through something that might be mildly unpleasant, or at least something that was tinged with some avoidance on my part. It's an important distinction, and was not entirely clear-cut before, at the time, at least not until I've got past the worst of it now.

Funny, I would have said I accepted my incompetence and was enjoying working at improving, and it would have been true at some level. But I definitely am less inhibited now, and getting into the water is much easier now. It helps that my self imposed mantra is "relax", and "enjoy", and "feel satisfied" rather than "improve".

Cathy, ease up on yourself! It's amazing how giving yourself permission to enjoy the process, enjoy the moment, etc., can actually change how you feel, even if you are a Type A like me.

liolio 09-09-2018 05:33 PM

global update.

I feel good about my swiming at the moment.
My freestyle is feeling much better, I should time myself one of this day on a 100m (lazyness and and actually a little sacre about what the results would be). I'm correcting my line and I've raised the efficiency of my under water arm movements (the catch was ok, too strong a pull, weak push to a more properly accelerated movement more efficient).

My backstroke has improved too. My arms throughout the pull and the push are staig closer to my core. Here too I've improved the push part of the motion. it's not more demanding actually I've been able to accelerrate the pace of my arm rotating slightly without feeling a change in my level of exercion.

Breaststroke is not feeling that great at the moment. I'm working on my tilted pelvis and I'm doing postural work in and out of the water. Wrt breasstroke it is really tough for me at the momet to resist the torque generated at the recovery by my unbalanced hip flexors. I think it promotes my bad bias, I've a tough controlling it.

Next butterfly, I think the basis are down and it feel pretty fast. Can't sustain it yet but I' feeling progress in relaxation and the efficiency of my arm work from one swimming session to another. I'm in the rewarding part of the learning curve after lots of effort I'm happy with it. It is easier for me to resist the "torque" generated by the arm and leg in butterfly than in breast though if I overdo it (try to force it) or do not pay attention I bend sideway pretty much instantly.
Overall I really like the feel of it and the speed of it.

Tom65 09-11-2018 09:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 66504)
global update.

I feel good about my swiming at the moment.
My freestyle is feeling much better, I should time myself one of this day on a 100m (lazyness and and actually a little sacre about what the results would be).

Doing a fast 100 takes it out of you, all about pacing.
Do 25 metre sprints if you want to have some fun with speed, when that gets boring do 50's.

liolio 09-14-2018 09:34 PM

It is not about stamina I'm scared somehow facing the "real" state of me.
My technique still has issues but it is getting decent so is my feel for water (I would actually put it higher than that it is the main driver in my five strokes) I think I could pull decent-ish times. The thing I know I'm held up till my body health issues improves (if they do or it is unclear to which extend I can fix things).
I know ther is still room for technique improvement, more flexibility and smooth efficient movements but I also know that if I'm not that happ with the measurement there won't be much I will be able to do about it as I can't really go all out while ingraining the proper "correctness" into my body. Going all out means futhering my issues and imbalances (I don't speak of stroke but spine, tensions, etc..)

Overall I think I'm a little too crazy about it and that it would be much easier on me to do it causualy with a friend. I'm a little scare that the me facing me though cloking would bring negativity into my happy introverted swimming bubble :)

PS I'm lucky to have a 50m pool around I often do fast 25m then recovering 25m till the turn starting over again, etc. ;)

Tom65 09-14-2018 10:22 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 66555)
It is not about stamina I'm scared somehow facing the "real" state of me.
My technique still has issues but it is getting decent so is my feel for water (I would actually put it higher than that it is the main driver in my five strokes) I think I could pull decent-ish times. The thing I know I'm held up till my body health issues improves (if they do or it is unclear to which extend I can fix things).
I know ther is still room for technique improvement, more flexibility and smooth efficient movements but I also know that if I'm not that happ with the measurement there won't be much I will be able to do about it as I can't really go all out while ingraining the proper "correctness" into my body. Going all out means futhering my issues and imbalances (I don't speak of stroke but spine, tensions, etc..)

Overall I think I'm a little too crazy about it and that it would be much easier on me to do it causualy with a friend. I'm a little scare that the me facing me though cloking would bring negativity into my happy introverted swimming bubble :)

PS I'm lucky to have a 50m pool around I often do fast 25m then recovering 25m till the turn starting over again, etc. ;)

Got to keep it enjoyable, I just do the sprints for a bit of fun and a belief that you should practice bursts of energy just so you'll have some capacity if you ever need it.

I'm happy to swim alone, but feel very fortunate to have my Daughters come along most Sundays. I couldn't even swim when they were kids, seeing how good they got was part of my motivation to learn.

Again, got to keep it enjoyable, I also learnt to swim for an exercise option. Possibly thirty more years of it to go.


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