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-   -   some anatomical observations (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=8202)

Danny 07-06-2015 06:25 AM

some anatomical observations
 
A while ago on this forum there was a discussion about the two shoulder joints, the one where the arm attaches to the shoulder and the enlarged shoulder joint (referred to as the shoulder girdle?) which includes the shoulder blade and a large piece of the skeletal cross section attached to your spine. By using the enlarged shoulder joint, we get extended range in our sweep (which can increase stroke distance) but, probably more important, we also involve the large torso muscles which are more powerful and efficient than the ones in our arms. So today, while bike riding, I realized that the same thing holds for our hips. There is the hip joint where the leg joins the hip, but there is also the pelvic girdle (?) which includes the part of the skeletal cross section attaching the hip joint to the spine. The same two observations about using the enlarged shoulder joint also hold for using the enlarged hip joint. It extends the range of our leg sweep and also involves the powerful muscles in our pelvic girdle in the motion. This seems like a useful property for running, but I found it most interesting for bike riding. Playing around with this on a bicycle gave me a feel for how to incorporate core body motion into my leg motion, which I think helps me to do the same with my shoulders. Also the stroke rate on a bike is slower than my running pace (itís closer to my swimming stroke rate) which gives me more time to feel and study the motion. If anyone wants to try this, the one tip I would give is that it is important to keep the lower part of your spine straight while doing it. For a lot of us, this feels a little like sticking your butt out, but when that lower spine is straight like that it makes the pelvic rotation easier and more efficient.
There are a few things I still donít understand about this. First, is good alignment of the upper spine just as critical in good shoulder rotation? The analogy suggests it. Second, to what extent are we using the enlarged hip joint in the 2-beat kick? Here I have no idea what the answer is. Does anyone else know? If we are using the enlarged hip joint, do the pelvic and shoulder girdles move in sync while swimming or is there a slight phase lag? What would be the benefits of using the enlarged hip joint in swimming?

Zenturtle 07-06-2015 08:09 AM

I still like this one for comparing core walking and core kicking.
The same idea that the movent starts really high above the hips, just as the shoulder connection starts below the shoulderjoint.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QUC6h_BF84A

CoachDavidShen 07-07-2015 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 53877)
There are a few things I still donít understand about this. First, is good alignment of the upper spine just as critical in good shoulder rotation? The analogy suggests it.

i think that you are talking about mobility of the shoulder joint, and what controls it, as well as proper centration (or centering) of the upper arm/humerus head in the shoulder socket (which really isn't a socket, but is more akin to the top of a golf tee).

the enlarged shoulder joint you talk about is really talking about the fact that there are many things involved in the mobility and movement at the shoulder joint. proper positioning and movement of the scapula is crucial for good stability at the shoulder when performing movements.

Yes the spine is critical in good movement at the shoulder. you need to have good thoracic spine mobility and alignment so that the shoulder can move properly. everything is connected and should be looked at as an entire system. even the neck can be involved with the shoulder, and even the hips and legs down to the feet depending on what the situation is and what movement pattern you're doing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 53877)
Second, to what extent are we using the enlarged hip joint in the 2-beat kick? Here I have no idea what the answer is. Does anyone else know? If we are using the enlarged hip joint, do the pelvic and shoulder girdles move in sync while swimming or is there a slight phase lag? What would be the benefits of using the enlarged hip joint in swimming?

the same goes for the hips. things connected to the hips upstream (ie. spine, torso muscles and bones) and downstream (ie. legs, knees, feet) all affect movement and mobility at the hips. if you move the legs, you cannot not be affected by the entire system so the "enlarged hip" you describe is used for the 2BK and how you execute it depends on how well you stabilize everything around it.

i like to advocate a spine first approach to getting proper movement at the shoulders and hips. if you have proper alignment and stability in the torso, then that will aid you moving the arms and legs properly and with power.

the next project will involve getting enough mobility at the shoulder and hips so that you can move the limbs freely in performing swimming motions WHILE properly stabilizing the torso at the same time....

Danny 07-08-2015 08:41 PM

David, thanks for your reply. From my own experience I agree with you that spinal alignment is prerequisite to getting proper movement of the shoulders and hips. What I am still wondering about, and haven't resolved in my own mind, is how the hips and shoulders work together. For example, one possible vision I have is that my hips and shoulders work like riders peddling on a tandem bicycle. That is, the right shoulder and the right hip go forward at the same time and they go back at the same time. Or is there a delay between the hip and shoulder movement? Note that in this image, I am imagining that both the hips and shoulders make a circular movement, when, in reality, I think it is more elliptical. Do you have any input on this question?

CoachDavidShen 07-09-2015 09:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 53937)
David, thanks for your reply. From my own experience I agree with you that spinal alignment is prerequisite to getting proper movement of the shoulders and hips. What I am still wondering about, and haven't resolved in my own mind, is how the hips and shoulders work together. For example, one possible vision I have is that my hips and shoulders work like riders peddling on a tandem bicycle. That is, the right shoulder and the right hip go forward at the same time and they go back at the same time. Or is there a delay between the hip and shoulder movement? Note that in this image, I am imagining that both the hips and shoulders make a circular movement, when, in reality, I think it is more elliptical. Do you have any input on this question?

i think the answer is, it depends. there are two types of movement. the official terms are ipsilateral and contralateral. ipsilateral is when the arm and leg on the same side of the body move together (ie. karate straight punch, step and punch same side leg). contralateral is when one arm moves and the opposite leg moves with it (ie. walking, 2BK in swimming).

correspondingly, when an arm moves, the shoulder moves with it, as does a leg and its hip joint.

i am not sure where you are placing the circles. if you mean they move in arcs, with the spine as an axis, that is essentially correct.

CoachEricDeSanto 07-09-2015 10:12 PM

Hi Danny,
I teach that the shoulders and hips stay exactly together. The torso rolls like a log in one piece. This is the only way I know that will allow the hip drive from the kick and the energy from gravity pulling down the recovering arm to synergistically power rotation and forward movement.

I have played with the idea that the shoulders move slightly before the kick. This is part of the discussion from a few weeks ago about the timing of the kick. If the kick finishes the rotation in stead of starts it, then the shoulders would move slightly before the kick. I can imagine a slight dolphin effect moving down each side of the body. But in my experience, holding the shoulders and hips together transmits more power to the anchor and lowers stroke counts and RPE at a given tempo.

Danny 07-10-2015 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachEricDeSanto (Post 53960)
Hi Danny,
I teach that the shoulders and hips stay exactly together. The torso rolls like a log in one piece. This is the only way I know that will allow the hip drive from the kick and the energy from gravity pulling down the recovering arm to synergistically power rotation and forward movement.

I have played with the idea that the shoulders move slightly before the kick. This is part of the discussion from a few weeks ago about the timing of the kick. If the kick finishes the rotation in stead of starts it, then the shoulders would move slightly before the kick. I can imagine a slight dolphin effect moving down each side of the body. But in my experience, holding the shoulders and hips together transmits more power to the anchor and lowers stroke counts and RPE at a given tempo.

Eric, thanks for your reply. Still not sure I understand what you are saying, since it isn't exactly clear to me how the hip motion relates to the leg motion. So let me try to ask the question a little differently. As the shoulders and the hips move forward and backward, the distance between the shoulder and the hip (in the direction parallel to the spine) can shrink or grow. If the two are in phase on the same side, then this distance remains constant. I'm not sure, however, what this would do to the timing of the kick. Can you shed some light on this?

David, I got lost in your reply. The ovals I am referring two are circles that are parallel to the spine, just as the pedals on a bike move parallel to the direction the bike is moving in. Does that answer your question?

CoachEricDeSanto 07-10-2015 10:20 PM

The kick causes the hips to move, so the kick happens slightly before the hips move. I don't think that timing has anything to do with whether the torso is kept in phase or if the torso is allowed to twist.

You would see a difference if looking at the kick and the spearing arm. If the torso is kept in phase, the energy of the kick would hit the arm at the same time it hits the hips so the kick - spear timing would be closer together. If the torso were allowed to twist, there would be a slight delay to the spear so the kick - spear timing would be longer. You would feel the kick move the hips and then the hips move the shoulders.

Danny 07-11-2015 09:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachEricDeSanto (Post 54004)
The kick causes the hips to move, so the kick happens slightly before the hips move. I don't think that timing has anything to do with whether the torso is kept in phase or if the torso is allowed to twist.

You would see a difference if looking at the kick and the spearing arm. If the torso is kept in phase, the energy of the kick would hit the arm at the same time it hits the hips so the kick - spear timing would be closer together. If the torso were allowed to twist, there would be a slight delay to the spear so the kick - spear timing would be longer. You would feel the kick move the hips and then the hips move the shoulders.

Eric, now that you say this, it makes sense. It sounds as if I first need to be able to feel these differences, then experiment with them, and then find out what is right for me or what is right under what circumstances. Is that what you are recommending?

CoachDavidShen 07-11-2015 01:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 54000)
David, I got lost in your reply. The ovals I am referring two are circles that are parallel to the spine, just as the pedals on a bike move parallel to the direction the bike is moving in. Does that answer your question?

sorry about that.

i'm not sure they *need* to move in circles/arcs/ellipses in that plane. the arm has a lot of movement angles at the shoulder socket, as does the leg at the hip socket.

the human body is built for (sorry back to the technical term) contralateral movement, which is the coordination of the left leg/right arm and right leg/left arm during motion and correspondingly having developed the balance associated with it during movement (so you don't fall flat on your face when you take a step). for certain kinds of movement, like walking forwards, you could say that the arms/legs are moving in planes that are most natural to us. but if we are shuffling sideways, the planes are changed.

back to this question:

What I am still wondering about, and haven't resolved in my own mind, is how the hips and shoulders work together. For example, one possible vision I have is that my hips and shoulders work like riders peddling on a tandem bicycle. That is, the right shoulder and the right hip go forward at the same time and they go back at the same time. Or is there a delay between the hip and shoulder movement? Note that in this image, I am imagining that both the hips and shoulders make a circular movement, when, in reality, I think it is more elliptical. Do you have any input on this question?

the spine itself can twist. for certain kinds of motion, this shows how energy can be stored within the torso's fascia and tissues and released again to make movement efficient.

so depending on what kind of motion you are doing, they same side hip and shoulder joints may not move in tandem in the same direction. they may move in opposite directions. think running - there is a global twist through the spine as the right arm drives forward, with the right side leg pushing back. so in this case, the shoulder and hip joints are moving in opposite directions.

in swimming, we tend to move the same side shoulder and hip together as we rotate from side to side.

so it will vary for the movement pattern you're talking about.


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