Total Immersion Forums

Total Immersion Forums (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/index.php)
-   Freestyle (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/forumdisplay.php?f=5)
-   -   Weight on catch in a long stroke (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9652)

Zenturtle 08-27-2018 06:23 AM

Thanks for the KPN video.
Like all coaches with a personal swimming background, they want to teach what has worked for them.
Paul Newsome has his favorite stroke, KPN has her favorite stroke, Terry has his favorite stroke.
There are similarities between all those styles which are the core of good swimming. The rest is mainly personal style.
OOmph at the front isnt Terrys style, but works great for her with her capability of forming a super effective high elbow catch.
But If I had to choose between the 3 for myself, it would be somewhere between Newsome and KPN I think, although I also like Terrys style in his pace video.

The whole weight on catch thing isnt strictly needed for all styles. Its an extra that works well for some , others hardly use it. The mechanical preparation for the force on catch is a thing that is always needed I think though.

Mushroomfloat 08-27-2018 11:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66423)
Thanks for the KPN video.
Like all coaches with a personal swimming background, they want to teach what has worked for them.
Paul Newsome has his favorite stroke, KPN has her favorite stroke, Terry has his favorite stroke.
There are similarities between all those styles which are the core of good swimming. The rest is mainly personal style.
OOmph at the front isnt Terrys style, but works great for her with her capability of forming a super effective high elbow catch.
But If I had to choose between the 3 for myself, it would be somewhere between Newsome and KPN I think, although I also like Terrys style in his pace video.

The whole weight on catch thing isnt strictly needed for all styles. Its an extra that works well for some , others hardly use it. The mechanical preparation for the force on catch is a thing that is always needed I think though.

Yeah when i still getting to grips with freestyle KPN's style really helped me with the semi straight arm recovery as i didnt have control over my rotation enough to do the high elbow recovery

but now i can swim a whole raft of different styles and switch them up on the go.

The main thing is Balance & Streamline once you have control over that then anything goes.

When i first heard Richard Quick say "the last thing we're concerned about is what the arms & legs are doing" i thought WTF? but now i understand.

Mushroomfloat 08-27-2018 11:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66425)
Yeah when i still getting to grips with freestyle KPN's style really helped me with the semi straight arm recovery as i didnt have control over my rotation enough to do the high elbow recovery

but now i can swim a whole raft of different styles and switch them up on the go.

The main thing is Balance & Streamline once you have control over that then anything goes.

When i first heard Richard Quick say "the last thing we're concerned about is what the arms & legs are doing" i thought WTF? but now i understand.

Going back and devoting time to balance drills a playing with static balance etc really paid off
the ability to sense when your breaking streamline or unbalancing is a must learn IMPO

I see the same folk week after week dragging hips & legs low underwater & addicted to pull buoys etc
all decent swimmers but just never worked at that balance & streamline

Danny 08-30-2018 03:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66415)
I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch

do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?

The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow

I think I know what you mean by that feeling. I remember going from a more catchup stroke to trying to putting more weight on the low side arm before the high arm entered the water.This was indeed hard to do without dropping the elbow. Surprisingly difficult in fact, even if i wanted to just get that arm just a little bit down and in shape before the other arm landed.
This was because the arm wasnt in the right setup to start with anyway.
It was extended, but not with a stable shoulder on top of it and already with a bit of a dropped elbow, but that wasnt not noticable in the weightless extension.
When putting pressure on this arm its bound to collapse into a dropped elbow,
and desperately bending the wrist to hold some pressure on the hand for gods sake.

The setup starts already with the recovery in fact.
Elbow lead recovery which is discussed so often helps, but also bringing the whole shoulder forward almost over the ears mentally, while rotating the elbow up into the extension. And extending more with that shoulder than stretching the arm.
That arm is best kept slightly bend in a slight clawing posture right into the inward rotated shoulder,lifted up and forward touching the jawline, with stretched out lat muscles and other muscle ties that want to pull that shoulder back into its normal place.
Now its possible to load that low side wing, releasing the shoulders lifting muscles and loading the muscles from shoulder to ribcage in a semi static manner. Just let the forearm sink a bit to start the downsweep, and let the muscles from shoulder to ribcage do the first work in the pull, taking that whole static paddle along.

You can already practice this procedure and the relative armtiming in front of a mirror.
In my case it was exactly this timing that was more difficult than pure catchup or pure windmilling.
It needs some time to get used to it, and also requires special shoulder flexibility and local strenght to make it feel natural, which it isnt offcourse.

Still working on it everytime in the pool, veeerrrry slooooowly going better and better

ZT, to answer your question
" do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?"
Yes, that is what I mean.

Concerning how to get the forward arm down earlier, like Terry does, I have been doing some experiments in the water and in front of a mirror. The main problem is that we are not anatomically set up to keep our elbow up if our arm is extended too close to the plane of our shoulders (outside the scapular plane). However, if you look at Terry's arm motion when his hand is moving downward, before the up side hand enters the water, it seems to me that his arm is straight, not bent at all. In fact, there are no anatomical constraints to moving your hand down early as long as you keep that arm straight while doing so. This may be the secret to Terry's catch: he keeps his arm straight as his hand moves down. I don't think you want to put too much weight on the arm in this position, because that may impact the shoulder, but by the time he goes into a catch his hand is close to under his shoulder and this may enable him to anchor better in his catch. Not sure of this, still experimenting, but it is interesting to play with these things.

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-30-2018 05:33 PM

ZT, Danny:

You guys are making this process far more complex than it needs to be. Awareness is great, but micromanaging all of the complex movements will leave swimmers completely tangled up, frustrated and completely confused in the water. And I think I saw something in the noise about Terry's stroke being a good example/promo for Swim Smooth? That's hilarious although I suspect your pal paul2121 would be thoroughly insulted :-)

The best and most succinct description of how the high and low-side arms work together, accessing the large muscle groups of the the core (not the weak/injury prone shoulders) from a coach who really knows what he's talking about and has a gift for delivering a clear message is Coach Dave Cameron and his video on "High Elbow Catch". It's been posted on many threads over the years and this one provides another opportunity. Select this link: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tDmQiHQ8mW8

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Danny 08-30-2018 07:32 PM

Hi Stuart,

For whatever it's worth, I do see differences in the catch as Terry does it and, for example, as Shinji does it. There is also a lot in common between their two strokes. My suspicion is that there are some basic issues that apply to everyone, and you have laid these out quite well, which I appreciate. In particular, since getting a forearm fulcrum, I have been able to correct some of my long-standing problems and your descriptions now make a lot more sense to me and I am trying to follow your advice (with some success, I believe).

That said, I suspect that the differences one sees in styles between people like Shinji and Terry are probably due to differences in flexibility and perhaps also body density distribution. For someone with tight shoulders, like me, it might help to at least understand these differences.

There is also an undercurrent in this discussion concerning what is TI and what is SS or some other school. I personally have no interest in this aspect and would prefer to stay out of this part of the discussion. I am getting most of my advice from you, in particular, as well as from other people on this forum, and I am also drawing my own conclusions from watching film and my own personal experiences.

I think somewhere back on one of Terry's very old discussions, he said that any verbal description of swimming will help some people but not others, depending on how much common understanding exists between the explainer and the student. He went on to say that he sometimes tries a whole bunch of different ways of describing the same thing until he hits on the one that resonates with the student he is working with.

I view the discussion I am having with ZT as part of this experimentation. It may not resonate with everyone, but if it helps me, then maybe it will help someone else too. As with all advice, especially from people like me who are not coaches, user beware. I don't claim any expertise in this area.

Thanks again for your repeated explanations of these matters, which don't always click the first time I read them. I am grateful for your patience and your strong presence on this forum.

Mushroomfloat 08-30-2018 11:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66445)
ZT, to answer your question
" do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?"
Yes, that is what I mean.

Concerning how to get the forward arm down earlier, like Terry does, I have been doing some experiments in the water and in front of a mirror. The main problem is that we are not anatomically set up to keep our elbow up if our arm is extended too close to the plane of our shoulders (outside the scapular plane). However, if you look at Terry's arm motion when his hand is moving downward, before the up side hand enters the water, it seems to me that his arm is straight, not bent at all. In fact, there are no anatomical constraints to moving your hand down early as long as you keep that arm straight while doing so. This may be the secret to Terry's catch: he keeps his arm straight as his hand moves down. I don't think you want to put too much weight on the arm in this position, because that may impact the shoulder, but by the time he goes into a catch his hand is close to under his shoulder and this may enable him to anchor better in his catch. Not sure of this, still experimenting, but it is interesting to play with these things.

Thats straight arm catch
it hits the bottom of shallow pools

Basically it goes down straight to about a 60deg angle then breaks at the elbow with the counter rotation, giving an under the shoulder catch

but you miss out on a large part of the front end and are just left with pushing back.

Zenturtle 09-02-2018 03:35 PM

Concerning how to get the forward arm down earlier, like Terry does, I have been doing some experiments in the water and in front of a mirror. The main problem is that we are not anatomically set up to keep our elbow up if our arm is extended too close to the plane of our shoulders (outside the scapular plane). However, if you look at Terry's arm motion when his hand is moving downward, before the up side hand enters the water, it seems to me that his arm is straight, not bent at all. In fact, there are no anatomical constraints to moving your hand down early as long as you keep that arm straight while doing so. This may be the secret to Terry's catch: he keeps his arm straight as his hand moves down. I don't think you want to put too much weight on the arm in this position, because that may impact the shoulder, but by the time he goes into a catch his hand is close to under his shoulder and this may enable him to anchor better in his catch. Not sure of this, still experimenting, but it is interesting to play with these things.
Reply With Quote


Danny, I guess you know by now that the idea to get the forearm and hand in a more or less vertical position early after the body has reached extension is the ideal way to get a big propulsive survace ready to push the body forward from? The ideal downward hinge point is not the shoulder, but the elbow.
People like Sun Yang get very close to this ideal, for most people its simply anatomically impossible to imitate that action.
When you regard the hand and forearm as your paddle, pivoting that paddle down from the elbow, or pivotinh that paddle down with a second long lever, the upperarm, makes a differnce for the forces on the second hing point, that is , the shoulderjoint.
If you imagine the upper arm stick being 2 m long and attach the forearm/handpaddle on that long stick. it is very hard for the shoulderjoint to rotate that paddle on such a long lever.

So for developing shoulder problems we have 2 arm stroke mechanisms that can cause trouble when sinking the paddle slowly to get to a better catch position (even worse when that action is done with force) :

1) using the shoulder as the only hinge. This results in moving the arm as a solid unit. paddling with straight arms
Thats close to Terry style.
When using this style, the shoulder isnt internally rotated much, but the paddle is working at the end of a long lever, putting a lot of load on thatr shoulder potentially.
Whats the solution in this case?
Dont load the shoulder too much when the arm sinks to more vertical positions. Let the uncoming waterflow help take the arm along a bit, by inserting the arm a bit steeper, and start the sinking movement a bit earlier, so the transition from extended position to effective catch position ( 60 degrees form horizontal like Mush said), is spread in time. This also spreads the load on the shoulder over time, instead of trying to go from an extension angle to a catch angle in a fast jerky movement, overloading the shoulder.

2) Using the elbow as the hinge point for bringing the paddle to a more vertical position.
If there was a hinge in the elbow that could do that, that would be much easier. There is a hing in the elbow, but that hinge pivots not really in the ideal direction.
Totally relaxed it hinges in a plane thats 90 degrees rotated form the desired hinging plane.
The relaxed movement is moving the hand an forearm in the horizontal plane, at the surface of the water when having the arm at the surface of the water, and pulling over the centerline in the horizontal plane.
The whole arm can be internally rotated to bring this horizontal relaxed hinging motion towards the desired downward direction by about 45 -60 degrees before the shoulder joint starts to complain.
You can check this yourself by extending the arm, let the forearm and handpaddle hinge at the elbow and see in what plane this action occurs.
If that action can de done like Sun Yang does it, you are lucky from a swimmers perpective.
If you are only able to hinge the paddle in the horizontal plane, you are better off with Terrys style .

So, straight arm action gives a higher load on the shoulders in a sound shoulder internal rotated angle when the timing and force is mismanaged because of the long lever effect.

Too much high elbow can give shoulder problems too, because load is put on the shoulder in a weak unnatural internally rotated position.

Hopefully you are not yet totally frustratated, tangled up and completely confused yet Danny, although better to use pictures to describe these movement planes and hinge points offcourse.

Whats an intersting drill, is to try to swim with simple straight arms and have almost no pressure on the arms in the circle part movement before the shoulders.(before the arm is 90 degrees down) Just let the arm idle along at the front part. If you are used to pressing water down at the front this will feel like sinking at the front. Now start adding pressure at the back and slowly move that start of applying pressure more to the front.
Going from this only backend pressure to more front end feels very fundamental to your stroke I think.
A good way to get used and aware of how applying pressure at differnt points in the stroke can influence your balance and perception of the stroke.

Zenturtle 09-02-2018 03:44 PM

Personally, I believe you can get closer to Sun yangs action by improving the flexibility of the whole shoulder complex surrounding the simple shoulder ball and socket joint.
When this flexibility and strengt increase over time, the whole shoulderjoint moves in an elliptical path during the stroke, increasing effective strokelength, and also giving extra freedom to rotate the shoulder joint/complex a bit further internally without problems.

Mushroomfloat 09-02-2018 04:05 PM

I have been extending

then waiting for recovery arm to come over and then using the connection

slide extended arm out to the side (in a Y position) slight pinkie down

this retracts the scapula as the arm sweeps out (like breast)

now shoulder is in a better position for EVF without a protracted upwards scapula too far fwd

spear shallowish and rotation takes it deeper to fwd extention

then sweeping out still pinkie down takes it even deeper whilst retracting scapula

then you can break at the elbow and your evf will be somewere around eye level or fwd of under the shoulder.

Mushroomfloat 09-02-2018 04:38 PM

as dave cameron says in that video posted earlier
it goes from narrow to wide & back to narrow

WFEGb 09-06-2018 07:37 PM

Hello especially ZT and Mushroomfloat,

Advocating Stuart's, don't overcomplicate things in the pool, I do like these thoughts and IMO sometimes hairsplittings very much as translation-exercise and intellectual games (failing in both sometimes...). And if they're helpful in anyway in anyone's swimming, great!

What I'm interested in:

- How long are you trying to include and test all these finesses?
- How do you decide, I'm failing with that or I do that right?
- Do you create FPs where you work on?
- In which point do you decide: Good to hold or not worthy to work further with (out of which ever reasons)?
- How do you isolate these fine tunings from the environment of the whole stroke these high-performance swimmers are swimming aside your actual points of interest?
- What are the reasons and how do you offer these things to your students?
- Are you discussing these things in non-TI-Forums too, and how are the threads, with what results, running there?
- And how did you create your 48hours-day to find and analyze all these things? (That's the most important quesiton ;-) )

Best regards,
Werner

Zenturtle 09-06-2018 10:15 PM

Wow, that are a lot of questions to answer.
Basically I have used the TI forum as a diary to describe the focal points I have stumbled upon, and the focal points i am interested in and trying out at that moment.

As with all those focal points, they come and they go.
Weight on catch is an old thing that caught my attention when recovering more over the top and bringing the shoulder with arm forward more and feeling that weight press on the the low side arm.
The differnt recovery action also disturbed the rotational balance, so I had to search for a new balance. It also became obvious that that weight combined with a stable downward low arm gave a certain downward glide effect which reminded me of the feeling of surfing down from a wave, so calling it `surfing the recovery weight`.
That was a some time ago. The novelty wears off. You work on other things that dont work as well as on your best swims, and after a while you rediscover the same things again, only from a slightly improved total package.
That process goes on and on until there is nothing left to improve, which moment never comes.

- How long are you trying to include and test all these finesses?

swimming is mainly balancing all the forces all the time. This means that you are a little unbalanced most of the time and constantly trying to figure out what movement is causing the imbalance you just felt.
Its like riding on a bike where you never drive in a perfectly straight line. You are always adjusting a bit.
Swimming is a bit the same, but 10 times more complicated, which makes it interesting at the same time.
So to answer the question. I am always including and testing these finesses, some unconcious, others conscious.

- How do you decide, I'm failing with that or I do that right?
Mostly, when combining common sense and proprioception, what feels right is right.
You have to add a lot of common sense, knowing what is an effective movement and what is an automatic , easy movement.
For example. kicking from the knee is easy and can feel powerful, but you know its not the best movement pattern, and you hopėfully have enough self awareness to know when you are kicking from the knee.
So whan you observe, he, You are kicking from the knee there, stop that action immediately, and ask yourself, why am i doing that?
Mostly its someting at the front thats causing it, or you are just lazy and take the easy (short term)way out.
Same with the high elbow catch stuff. This is such an unnatural movement thats it doesnt come naturally if you just do what feels the most comfortable. The most comfortable is pulling with a dropped elbow.
So that requires repeating that movement forcefully untill it starts to feel natural.
I dont agree with the idea that it happens naturally, because 95-99% of the swimmers dont get it right, including most swim coaches.
How do you know you get it right? YOu dont know if you get it perfectly right, but you do know if you have improved upon your former action.You know that you have improved it a bit. You know your movement is differnt, you know the differnt feeling that belongs to that differnt movement.
When you focus on one aspect of your stroke, you can improve that part a bit, remenber the sensation it gives and repeat it the next time (if you swim often enough to not forget it in the mean time)

Still want to hear more Wermer?


Probably the most important question for most: is all that hair splitting making you faster?
Hmm. I dont know. People with real swim talent pick up all the cues they need along the way without thinking much about it. Swimming a lot is enough for them.
Probably I am thinking a bit too much. If all the time thinking about it was spent in the pool, I probably was swimming better/faster, but i wouldnt know what I was doing.

WFEGb 09-07-2018 06:08 AM

Hello ZT,

thank you for taking time and effort for such a long answer! (Although I once again deducted from the topic...) But now I think I've got a better picture of your swim-work in and out of the pool. Your 48hours-day remains a miracle... Understand, you wan't tell all your secrets in an open forum :-)

Quote:

...That was a some time ago. The novelty wears off. You work on other things that dont work as well as on your best swims, and after a while you rediscover the same things again, only from a slightly improved total package...
That's what I do like so much and what (Terry/TI in my case) presented to make swimming such an interesting sport. Same things, same words (the illusion) of correct understanding... totally different a year later in a (hopefully) upward spiral...

Quote:

...Its like riding on a bike where you never drive in a perfectly straight line. You are always adjusting a bit.
Swimming is a bit the same, but 10 times more complicated, which makes it interesting at the same time...
Will confirm it 100%! (Might be a historical event :-) )

Quote:

...Mostly, when combining common sense and proprioception, what feels right is right.
You have to add a lot of common sense, knowing what is an effective movement and what is an automatic , easy movement...
Damned, wished I could say the same about my own skills! All my hopes are in Kaizen. (Just had a somersault-back, when I had to whatch my owns stroke in a short video-sequence again since some years...)

Quote:

...Still want to hear more Wermer?...
Seems I'm allowed: Do you have a sequence of FPs you're working on, like TI's BSP, or do they bop up and vanish dayly/weekly/monthly?

Quote:

...People with real swim talent pick up all the cues they need along the way without thinking much about it...
Sigh... But sometimes I console myself that our work is much more interesting...

Thank you ZT and best regards,
Werner

Danny 09-07-2018 01:55 PM

Hi ZT, I too liked your answers to Werner's philosophical questions. Your answers all resonated with me. I am at an age now where my conditioning gets continually worse. Last spring I had a health crisis that kept me out of the pool for some time, and when I got back in I had lost a lot of ground. Since then I have gained some of it back, but I know from past experience that I will never get all of it back. I recently spoke with a friend who is a long time runner, and he told me the same thing. He had an injury, had to sit out for some time, and he knows he will never quite get back what he lost from that time out.

So all of this fits into the picture of what I am trying to do with my technique analysis. I have the feeling that I may be swimming with better technique now than ever before, even though I am slower. In particular, Stuart's suggestion to get forearm fulcrums has made a big difference and I have the feeling that I have cleaned up a lot of my dropped elbow problems to an extent that I never had before. This feels great, and it has allowed me to start playing around with some other issues that I could never really get into without dropping my elbow. Lately I have been swimming in lakes and I have achieved a degree of effortlessness that I'm not sure I ever had before over distance. All of this is a lot of fun, and I like to believe that I am slowing down the rate at which I slow down, even if I haven't been able to reverse the trend.

So, Werner, I know you didn't ask me these questions, but that's my input, for whatever it's worth.

WFEGb 09-07-2018 04:02 PM

Hello Danny,

Quote:

So, Werner, I know you didn't ask me these questions, but that's my input, for whatever it's worth.
Thank you very much for jumping in! Seems we're in the same age-group with very similar experience in aging and swimming. Not being alone with such somewhat disregard things feels like a kind of help. When thinking about I do admire Terry even more.

In the beginning of the year I did it and worked regularly through one of Mat's 12-weeks-courses, starting in very bad shape and succeeded nearly to reach my state three years ago or so. Then I had to be off the pool for three weeks (holydays and more or less small illnesses are much more often then 30years ago...)... Resulted in a shape as before the course started... And worse, a video from last weeks showed that my stroke didn't improve as I hoped (and felt) before.

So much (interesting!) inner and outer things to learn!

Best regards,
Werner

sclim 09-07-2018 07:18 PM

Haha, so glad to hear that 3 of my mentors whose insights and advice have helped so much still have frustrations and setbacks like I do. And somewhat humbled by the knowledge that you guys are performing and allegedly experiencing setbacks at a much higher performance level than I do.

I spent this morning at the track, attending to running speed tuneup to address absolute speed issues that have fallen into decline in this past season of focussing on running endurance in support of my IronMan attempt (BTW I completed my first IronMan at Mont Tremblant August 19). Placed 2nd in 70 age group. 1hr 45 minute 3.8k swim, which included a somewhat long beach walk and stair climb to get to the Wet-Suit peelers. So not a fast swim by any means, but I arrived at the bike start in very good shape.

But I have to admit, despite my frustration at slow progress in swimming, I am better than I was last year -- in that I can do lengths with less perceived effort and still maintain some semblance of lower SPL than before. So the combined effects of insight, putting insight into actual mechanical followthrough and practice, and then solidifying this with mindful repetition had actually paid off slowly but steadily. And I will continue to work on this in the same fashion.

WFEGb 09-07-2018 09:23 PM

Hello Sclim,

congratulation! Great results and improvement beyond the middle age. Planting some more hope in me.

Thought I'm the senior of age (aside Grant who posts only rarely), but now I'm pleased there are still some more "silver-surfers" in the forum.

Also very interesting that you as an IronMan are putting some time in to improve your swimming. Just talked with a coach-colleague who is coaching triathletes and he said there's no interest in swimming, because improvement needs too much time to pay off and it's better been put in cycling and running... Your's is an other story...

ZT, excuse, again far off your thread's theme.

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Should my old dream of TI-Silver-Surfer's meeting bop up again?

sclim 09-09-2018 03:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 66488)
Also very interesting that you as an IronMan are putting some time in to improve your swimming. Just talked with a coach-colleague who is coaching triathletes and he said there's no interest in swimming, because improvement needs too much time to pay off and it's better been put in cycling and running... Your's is an other story...

From a purely time-management competition-improvement point of view, there may be some logic in that mathematical model. After all, for the mainstream type of swimmer who is slowish, and swims the 3.8km open water leg in 1:45, to improve to 1:15 would take a huge increase in effort and training hardening, all for a 30 minute reduction in a 15 hour race, at a tremendous energy and effort cost, which might well cause a penalty in the form of slowness in bike or running leg because of the exhaustion of the extra swim effort.

But firstly, I'm not a mainstream swimmer. As a TI swimmer, I recognize that I'm still on the steep end of the inefficiency curve. Therefore there is relatively easy tapping of further potential gains in efficiency, i.e. I believe this is low-lying fruit ready to be harvested from the energy viewpoint. That it may be difficult mentally does not bother me -- the difficulty will only be upfront and once the skill puzzles are gradually solved I will be rejoicing in new-found co-ordination and "easy speed" (haha, does it seem like I'm dreaming in technicolor?).

But seriously, I really believe this. And even if improvement in swimming speed is slow, improvement of my Ironman time is not the only driving motivation in my life. I find any intrinsic improvement in my swimming smoothness and efficiency very satisfying, no matter how long it takes me to acquire each further step, because each improvement in efficiency, once acquired through better balance and timing, is permanent. That is why I find listening in to conversations and discussion on threads like this so fascinating. Even if I don't always understand at the time all the subtleties that are being discussed, I make a mental note of a feeling or a timing distinction that is mentioned but which I have not yet grasped or felt, so that if in the future I experience it, I will know what it is.

WFEGb 09-09-2018 11:06 AM

Hello Sclim,

lets me stay a bit jealous aside :-) Seems you've found your Kaizen-way as multi-laned highway, while mine often seems to be a barely visible (although highly interesting) path through the undergrowth.

Let's participate.

Best regards and joyful work (mainly with TI-strokes),
Werner

Zenturtle 09-09-2018 11:41 AM

my main focal point on every swim is Natalie Coughlins

Plant your arm and swing your body around it.

You can focus on the planting part, or on the swinging around part (the TI focus)
Important to keep the body fishlike from the ribcage down, all the way to the point of the toe.
Thats where dryland instincts can emerge when you start to pull before you have setup your anchor properly (planting the arm)
If you dont havent setup up your anchor properly , there is nothing to swing forward from.
But once you have an anchor in the water, then its almost forget about it, throw that highside forward , and corkscrew/sqeeze past it.

I think for a lot of TI swimmers its a good idea to shorten the extension, get a quick meathook claw in the water and pull with the trunc abdominals/obliques right to the other side and repeat.
Most have simply no idea to hook up the anchor to the trunc, and get a rhythm going that way.
The TI beginner style with long pause and jerky pull keeps you in that unknowing state forever.
Especially the start of the pull needs some help from the trunc.
Once you have found that short trunchelping rhythical style , you can lengthen out streamline more again, while keeping contact with that rhythm.

Mushroomfloat 09-09-2018 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66498)
my main focal point on every swim is Natalie Coughlins

Plant your arm and swing your body around it.

You can focus on the planting part, or on the swinging around part (the TI focus)
Important to keep the body fishlike from the ribcage down, all the way to the point of the toe.
Thats where dryland instincts can emerge when you start to pull before you have setup your anchor properly (planting the arm)
If you dont havent setup up your anchor properly , there is nothing to swing forward from.
But once you have an anchor in the water, then its almost forget about it, throw that highside forward , and corkscrew/sqeeze past it.

I think for a lot of TI swimmers its a good idea to shorten the extension, get a quick meathook claw in the water and pull with the trunc abdominals/obliques right to the other side and repeat.
Most have simply no idea to hook up the anchor to the trunc, and get a rhythm going that way.
The TI beginner style with long pause and jerky pull keeps you in that unknowing state forever.
Especially the start of the pull needs some help from the trunc.
Once you have found that short trunchelping rhythical style , you can lengthen out streamline more again, while keeping contact with that rhythm.

Agreed.

One thing i have been working on lately is slowing down the stroke to get both arms working together through the trunk

i found that relaxing the hands and almost screwing them counterclockwise at extention then back through clockwise to set up catch in time with the weight of the recovery coming over

feel like im connected through the shoulders when i do this

hands claw like but relaxed sort of like turning 2 taps on & off out front

Mushroomfloat 09-09-2018 02:44 PM

i noticed Thorpe had a bit of this out front

sclim 09-12-2018 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66498)
I think for a lot of TI swimmers its a good idea to shorten the extension, get a quick meathook claw in the water and pull with the trunc abdominals/obliques right to the other side and repeat.
Most have simply no idea to hook up the anchor to the trunc, and get a rhythm going that way.
The TI beginner style with long pause and jerky pull keeps you in that unknowing state forever.
Especially the start of the pull needs some help from the trunc.
Once you have found that short trunchelping rhythical style , you can lengthen out streamline more again, while keeping contact with that rhythm.

Just to be clear, you are suggesting that for less experienced swimmers who don't have a feel for the rhythm to shorten the lead hand extension and, presumably, also the patient lead hand wait, and to get the meathook claw set up early?

Once the trunk-helping rhythm is dialled in, then the swimmer can gradually lengthen out the streamline again, keeping an eye on not losing the rhythm.

So the idea is only to shorten the extension initially as a temporary aid to "getting" the rhythm (and feeling that the pull is from the abd obliques, not from the arms or even the lats)?

Zenturtle 09-13-2018 01:10 AM

Yep. but also the lats. Arms sort of feel static during the pull. swimming with simple straight/hooked arms is good enough.
See thread from ramTI, Uchimura basic style

Zenturtle 09-14-2018 10:56 AM

Sclim, from 3 min 50...Talking asbout older swimmers with less flex in the shoulders-
Thats what I mean by keeping the arms a bit in the meathook shape for most of the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUkcHT9AnCw


All times are GMT. The time now is 02:01 PM.

Powered by vBulletin®
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.