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Zenturtle 07-25-2018 09:32 AM

Weight on catch in a long stroke
 
I was watching some doggy paddle drills, when I came across Bill Kirby doing doggy paddle in a slightly mediocre way. He didnt seem to like the drill very much.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UUhEK0YOG_8 (dont listen to the swimsmooth bala bla ha ha)
When he switched over to his normal stroke it became obvious why.
This guy seems to like slicing through the water with his upperbody and using his above water weight to load his catch after reaching,stretching out and setting up, to let that weight transfer into a release of the spring from his anchor into his streamline again. This cycle repeats itself, and this mechanism isnt available in doggy paddle, where its more local shoulder arm action and a lot of drag all the time.
When he switches to normal stroke he exagerates the throwing the weight over the body to get into the groove again and find his rotational balance of the weight swinging above the narrow underwater torpedo. Finding the balance point where the torpedo roll to the left or the right, and how to set up his underwaterarm to move from torpedo into catch, using that weight transfer in the most optimal way.


finding his balance line:
photo sharing


loading catch on the left side:


and loading catch on right side:
sfbeeldingen

Zenturtle 07-25-2018 09:42 AM

So, how does that look underwater at the different stages of the cycle?

1 reach and setup a slight start of the catch. (same side leg is also setup)



2 start weight on catch. Above water arm is almost at shoulder height moving forward, or about at shoulder height, depending the level of catchup timing. recovering shoulder is rotated up, while the low arm has to stay outsinde the centerline with an upward rotated elbow. this together requires the shoulderblades to be pressed together.
afbeedlingen

3 peak weight on catch.
At this point the mass center of the weight above water is more or less at he same level as the catching arm, so the weight is pessing maximal into the catch. To use that weight effectively in a long stroke its best to have the paddle pointing down at a reasonable angle, otherwise the weight cant be transfered to backward pressure. Low side paddle and high side weight are working at different sides of the body, so together they create a torque that also rotates the body around its axis.
To execute this cycle optimally, you need enough flexibility and shoulder strength/stabilisation.

Zenturtle 07-25-2018 10:02 AM

4
After the peak weight on catch you are very near to the full lock position, where there is a transition to releasing the spring and starting to use your full body to reach peak power in the stroke. The weight is over the top and you are agian getting more totally under the water.
afbeelding


5
Full lock and switch.
High side arm under water, low side arm fully locked in the water. Right in the switch from left to right side.
photo upload

6
Shove forward with torpedo lowside from anchor point.
plaatjes afbeeldingen

7
Extend and finish. Streamline further into the fastest part of the stroke and setup to repeat the cycle at the other side.
upload image

Well, thats my perception of the phases, for what I am able to feel them with my just above avarage ability to copy these actions.
TI wants to keep everything more wide, and thats whats perhaps best for less skilled, weaker and stiffer people, to avoid shoulder or balance problems. You still can get the basic idea I guess if you have reasonable swim skills.

So how does this look from the outside, when this guy swims at a relaxed pace?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5FKaasvXjI0
How relaxed are those recovering arms. It looks so relaxed, but underwater there is a lot going on in the meantime.
In this clip he is swimming very much catchup timing, with only a little weight on catch. His high arm has nearly landed when he starts his catch. Only using the endmomentum of sinking the high side into the low side on his anchor.

Mushroomfloat 07-25-2018 01:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66097)
So, how does that look underwater at the different stages of the cycle?

1 reach and setup a slight start of the catch. (same side leg is also setup)



2 start weight on catch. Above water arm is almost at shoulder height moving forward, or about at shoulder height, depending the level of catchup timing. recovering shoulder is rotated up, while the low arm has to stay outsinde the centerline with an upward rotated elbow. this together requires the shoulderblades to be pressed together.
afbeedlingen

3 peak weight on catch.
At this point the mass center of the weight above water is more or less at he same level as the catching arm, so the weight is pessing maximal into the catch. To use that weight effectively in a long stroke its best to have the paddle pointing down at a reasonable angle, otherwise the weight cant be transfered to backward pressure. Low side paddle and high side weight are working at different sides of the body, so together they create a torque that also rotates the body around its axis.
To execute this cycle optimally, you need enough flexibility and shoulder strength/stabilisation.

This is where i'm at too, exactly this stroke!

I think the lead arm needs to go down to allow the highside shoulder to elevate, it is almost like a kayak principle.

It's funny i was going to start a similar thread this morning about this very subject!
Great pics and analysis ZT

Lead arm like a "slowly sinking surfboard" i think you said the other day? thats it, i find it goes wide and down
also i wemt from straight arm recovery to chambering it above the head (like sailboat drill) and then strongly fired the high side hip
i got a massive fast shallow gilde off of that & got a good rythmn going like sheila taorminas stroke, something to try

Mushroomfloat 07-25-2018 01:50 PM

I was controlling this from the hips
I found a small nudge down of the highside hip on the way to entry locks the catch underwater

Also i drove the hips towards the far end of the pool not just rotated them, actually rotated and drove forward, this seemed to work the 2bk naturally

Mushroomfloat 07-25-2018 09:55 PM

Just been up the pool for an hour working on this,

There is a big element of float & paddle to the stroke

and its much more powerful with an early highside hip rotation to lock the catch onto the water got it very snappy with a powerful hook.

i also tried the aim down your pinkie tip which sharpened the stroke up immensely removed all slop

Mushroomfloat 07-25-2018 10:01 PM

I got the turn to air seemlessly intergrated and very smooth it doesnt require a fast snap back down of the face it can return smoothly in time with the rythmn of the stroke.

Breathe on full extention but start head turn as spear pierces the water with a slow turn of the head to air and a slow roll back

Zenturtle 07-26-2018 06:04 AM

Well, you got it all under control than.
Personally, swimming is still like holding 10 spinning plates in the air. There are always some plates about to fall or falling while you speed up plates somewhere else.
Its damn hard to keep them all spinning at top speed all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dROvIjfZoZg

Mushroomfloat 07-26-2018 01:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66108)
Well, you got it all under control than.
Personally, swimming is still like holding 10 spinning plates in the air. There are always some plates about to fall or falling while you speed up plates somewhere else.
Its damn hard to keep them all spinning at top speed all the time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dROvIjfZoZg

Yes last nights swim was the best technique i've ever achieved in 3 years + of practice.

I just went slow and it all came together, i had time in the stroke to figure out the early highside hip nudge down to lock the anchor, also matched highside arm to low side anchor timing, then i could get a faster ratchet switch going.

"Train slow with correct technique and that slow will become very fast"
very apt.

Mushroomfloat 07-26-2018 01:50 PM

Hip driven from the raceclub:

https://youtu.be/e02oju0S4uE

The guy says the elbow actually drops a little bit on the extention prior to a slide out,
Thats what i noticed too in practice

Mushroomfloat 07-26-2018 01:53 PM

"Snaps the hip into the catch"

Zenturtle 07-26-2018 09:13 PM

never understood that snapping description.
Al low strokerates everything moves rather slow. How can a hip suddenly snap in a smooth slow kinetic chain?

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66112)
never understood that snapping description.
Al low strokerates everything moves rather slow. How can a hip suddenly snap in a smooth slow kinetic chain?

"Set up & Drive"
You arrive at peak recovery and "fire" (snap)
you get a real punch / superglide from it (power of the arm throw driven by snapping of the hip)

shelia taormina uses this style

i'll post vids

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:12 AM

Set up & drive

https://youtu.be/39eVstTawpU

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:15 AM

Watch sheila's hip drive to entry incorporating arm throw, this gives a huge surge / glide if done right, really maintains speed.

https://youtu.be/NXCw9t6bV8c

To pull it off you have to stay up on the oposite edge and snap / throw when you chamber recovery above the head

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:19 AM

Add the power if the throw of the hand (to the shoulders hips and kick)

https://youtu.be/kyoXCIeSewY

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:26 AM

The "snap" is snapping from edge to edge minimising the transition (drag)

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:30 AM

so although the stroke rate is slow the speed is pretty fast

maximised by the arm throw shoulder hip snap & kick (make your skate edge line with a 2bk)

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:41 AM

So its a slow stroke interspersed with fast snaps from edge to edge

like a crescendo buillllllllld fire buillllllllld fire etc etc

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:48 AM

You need big air under your recovery arm to pull it off

Sheila mentions it in her video a'la loading the core in a lengthened serape plane

Mushroomfloat 07-27-2018 01:50 AM

if you go real mental with the hook into the water you'll morph into shoulder driven and then body driven.

Sorry for all the posts have no edit function

borate 07-27-2018 01:58 AM

No EDIT function...
 
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66121)
Sorry for all the posts have no edit function



Bottom-right of your message.

Zenturtle 07-28-2018 10:02 AM

I can understand those clips, but havent heard talking about snapping hips.
I more like the the explanation where hips drive, shoulder roll builds on top of that, arm throw build on those shoulder movement again.
Thats a functional building kinetic chain. Like a boxers punch, golf swing, spear throw etc.
Snapping hips are just that, snapping hips.

What Sheila says about big air under the recovering arm and what Bill Kirby does is almost identical dont you think?

Seems like the days of the lively forums are numbered. Even here there is not much going on anymore.

Mushroomfloat 07-30-2018 02:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66123)
I can understand those clips, but havent heard talking about snapping hips.
I more like the the explanation where hips drive, shoulder roll builds on top of that, arm throw build on those shoulder movement again.
Thats a functional building kinetic chain. Like a boxers punch, golf swing, spear throw etc.
Snapping hips are just that, snapping hips.

What Sheila says about big air under the recovering arm and what Bill Kirby does is almost identical dont you think?

Seems like the days of the lively forums are numbered. Even here there is not much going on anymore.

Yes, i think you need enough height to load the core, across the surface probably isnt going to get that lengthening / connection.

I had another go this morning, i found going wider really helped with stability, i was so "on top" of the water that i was actually getting jostled about.

Right arm was picking up over hip at exit causing left leg foot to come out of the water requiring a correction, so i sorted that by swinging out wider too, instantly corrected that pesky foot.
Gotta thank streak & coach dougal for that one.

Mushroomfloat 07-30-2018 02:47 PM

Head position as well, eyes up catch makes huge difference

https://youtu.be/Nv6qDqKPd_M

I hate facedown now, you can feel the drag off the top of the head.

Zenturtle 07-30-2018 05:46 PM

So, what are we talking about?
Well, the weight of half a head, shoulder and arm hover above the water,.... and the next time when you watch they are gone.
All the weight has sunk in the water.
Where has all the potential energy gone? A big water displacement almost perpendicular to the forward movement. Every stroke. What a waiste of energy.

load ti a
upload image

load ti b


load ti c

Zenturtle 07-30-2018 06:09 PM

mushroomfloat will find thsi interesting I guess



If I had to pick one word to describe my stroke -- if I had to name one ingredient that pulls everything together -- it would be: connection.

When most people watch me swim, they notice that I’m galloping or loping... or they notice that my hands are open during the pull. Those things are incidental. What they should really notice, and what I want you to watch in this clip, is how I’m connecting my catch... to my core.

That’s the connection I’m talking about -- linking the hip area (the core) to the hand, and feeling them work together as opposed to working separately. It means swimming with your entire body, as opposed to swimming with just your arms or just your legs.

A lot of the connection happens on that one side -- the left side -- where I’m setting up and getting ready for that huge pull.

As I set up for the catch, I think about moving the rest of my body with my arm. This generates way more power than if you get halfway through the pull and then turn the hips.

By connecting the core to the catch, you get the maximum power you can get by using the whole body.

When I take that pull and move my hips along with the pull, I maximize the power. I feel the whole body moving together as one unit as opposed to separate units.
It’s all about connecting.

Here’s another angle where you can see how I set the two things up -- the hand and the hips -- and then connect them to get maximum power from my stroke. When I get the timing just right, my stroke feels fast and light and almost effortless.

In the next few clips, I want you to focus just on my hands and forearms. Notice that when I initiate the catch, my arm is extended and my hand is up near the surface.

I try to start the catch just a few inches under the water because that gives me plenty of time to set up my pulling surface and get some momentum going before that pulling surface hits the true power zone, which is the middle third of the pull.

Many swimmers don’t initiate the catch until the hand is halfway through the pull. They let the hand drift downward or they plunge it downward, and don’t start the catch until it’s too late, and they never fully connect the hips to the hand.

When my hand enters the water, I concentrate on catching with as much surface area as possible -- from the hand and fingertips all the way down to the elbow.

It’s another form of connection. I’m trying to connect that entire arm -- and really that entire side of my body -- with the water. I’m trying to engage everything from fingertips to wrist to forearm to the lats and then to the hips and core. I’m using the catch to set up my whole body and not just my hand.

Another big thing to notice is the elbow. I try to keep my elbow high and make sure I’m not slipping or dropping the elbow on the top part of the stroke. This sets up your pulling surface, and lets you gain momentum before you get to the power part of the stroke.

When I teach clinics, I see a lot of swimmers who drop their elbow at the beginning part of the stroke. They slip through the water and it’s not till the second part of the stroke that they get started. So they’re starting from nothing to get their power, as opposed to having some momentum building into the power phase.

By catching near the surface and by keeping the elbow high, I have more time to set up a connection between the hand the the hip... between the catch and the core.

One other thing you’ll notice about my pull is that I don’t push all the way through. The hand exits a little bit early compared to most people.

I’ve experimented with this and it’s just something that feels more comfortable and more productive to me. If I catch near the surface and get good acceleration into the middle part of the pull, I can exit a little sooner and get into the next stroke.

One of my favorite drills for working on the connection between the catch and the core is the Underwater Recovery Drill.

I normally don’t look forward when I swim, but for this drill, you do look forward so you can actually see where you’re catching the water and what your elbow is doing at the catch. You can make sure you’re doing the right thing.

Try to catch nice and high, near the surface. Keep the elbow high all the way through the pull. And try to connect the rotation of your hips with the catch and the start of the pull.

When you finish the pull, keep your arm in the water and send it back out front. This is not doggie paddle! It takes focus and concentration to make the link between your body and your pull.

Another good drill for working on connection is Single-Arm Freestyle, with one arm extended and the other arm at your side.

Most swimmers, when they swim with just one arm, want to use that arm and muscle it and not use the rest of their body. So try to connect and use everything all together.

It’s very difficult to do this with just one arm, but if you can connect while doing the drill, it will be a piece of cake to connect when you’re swimming.

Learning how to swim with your whole body is so important that I’m going to show another good drill, which is swimming with your fists. I do a lot of this.

Simply close your fists and swim. Don’t hit the water with the first and drive it down. Keep your fist near the surface, keep your elbow high, and initiate the catch with your forearm.

Connect with as much surface area as possible and then connect your pulling surface to your core body. This drill may feel awkward at first, but it will help program your muscles...

...to swim like this -- connecting the catch to the core for maximum power.


by.... Jason Lezak

He lopes on his left because that feels like his strongest side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=chwxaUtnfUk

Oyoguneko 07-31-2018 05:00 AM

Itís funny to see the underwater view it seems like the swimmer is throwing a ball , look at it to get the impulsion the kick of his body . Thank you for your insight and photo analyze I will try it right away ! As I need to improve the movement of my whole body to move forward.

Mushroomfloat 07-31-2018 10:14 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66135)
mushroomfloat will find thsi interesting I guess



If I had to pick one word to describe my stroke -- if I had to name one ingredient that pulls everything together -- it would be: connection.

When most people watch me swim, they notice that Iím galloping or loping... or they notice that my hands are open during the pull. Those things are incidental. What they should really notice, and what I want you to watch in this clip, is how Iím connecting my catch... to my core.

Thatís the connection Iím talking about -- linking the hip area (the core) to the hand, and feeling them work together as opposed to working separately. It means swimming with your entire body, as opposed to swimming with just your arms or just your legs.

A lot of the connection happens on that one side -- the left side -- where Iím setting up and getting ready for that huge pull.

As I set up for the catch, I think about moving the rest of my body with my arm. This generates way more power than if you get halfway through the pull and then turn the hips.

By connecting the core to the catch, you get the maximum power you can get by using the whole body.

When I take that pull and move my hips along with the pull, I maximize the power. I feel the whole body moving together as one unit as opposed to separate units.
Itís all about connecting.

Hereís another angle where you can see how I set the two things up -- the hand and the hips -- and then connect them to get maximum power from my stroke. When I get the timing just right, my stroke feels fast and light and almost effortless.

In the next few clips, I want you to focus just on my hands and forearms. Notice that when I initiate the catch, my arm is extended and my hand is up near the surface.

I try to start the catch just a few inches under the water because that gives me plenty of time to set up my pulling surface and get some momentum going before that pulling surface hits the true power zone, which is the middle third of the pull.

Many swimmers donít initiate the catch until the hand is halfway through the pull. They let the hand drift downward or they plunge it downward, and donít start the catch until itís too late, and they never fully connect the hips to the hand.

When my hand enters the water, I concentrate on catching with as much surface area as possible -- from the hand and fingertips all the way down to the elbow.

Itís another form of connection. Iím trying to connect that entire arm -- and really that entire side of my body -- with the water. Iím trying to engage everything from fingertips to wrist to forearm to the lats and then to the hips and core. Iím using the catch to set up my whole body and not just my hand.

Another big thing to notice is the elbow. I try to keep my elbow high and make sure Iím not slipping or dropping the elbow on the top part of the stroke. This sets up your pulling surface, and lets you gain momentum before you get to the power part of the stroke.

When I teach clinics, I see a lot of swimmers who drop their elbow at the beginning part of the stroke. They slip through the water and itís not till the second part of the stroke that they get started. So theyíre starting from nothing to get their power, as opposed to having some momentum building into the power phase.

By catching near the surface and by keeping the elbow high, I have more time to set up a connection between the hand the the hip... between the catch and the core.

One other thing youíll notice about my pull is that I donít push all the way through. The hand exits a little bit early compared to most people.

Iíve experimented with this and itís just something that feels more comfortable and more productive to me. If I catch near the surface and get good acceleration into the middle part of the pull, I can exit a little sooner and get into the next stroke.

One of my favorite drills for working on the connection between the catch and the core is the Underwater Recovery Drill.

I normally donít look forward when I swim, but for this drill, you do look forward so you can actually see where youíre catching the water and what your elbow is doing at the catch. You can make sure youíre doing the right thing.

Try to catch nice and high, near the surface. Keep the elbow high all the way through the pull. And try to connect the rotation of your hips with the catch and the start of the pull.

When you finish the pull, keep your arm in the water and send it back out front. This is not doggie paddle! It takes focus and concentration to make the link between your body and your pull.

Another good drill for working on connection is Single-Arm Freestyle, with one arm extended and the other arm at your side.

Most swimmers, when they swim with just one arm, want to use that arm and muscle it and not use the rest of their body. So try to connect and use everything all together.

Itís very difficult to do this with just one arm, but if you can connect while doing the drill, it will be a piece of cake to connect when youíre swimming.

Learning how to swim with your whole body is so important that Iím going to show another good drill, which is swimming with your fists. I do a lot of this.

Simply close your fists and swim. Donít hit the water with the first and drive it down. Keep your fist near the surface, keep your elbow high, and initiate the catch with your forearm.

Connect with as much surface area as possible and then connect your pulling surface to your core body. This drill may feel awkward at first, but it will help program your muscles...

...to swim like this -- connecting the catch to the core for maximum power.


by.... Jason Lezak

He lopes on his left because that feels like his strongest side
https://www.youtube.com/watch?time_c...&v=chwxaUtnfUk

Good read thanks,
yes that is how i'm seeing it too, i use the highside hip to start a subtle nudge down which locks the catch / starts a grab on the water, then that actually finishes off my recovery to entry

i get a nice twack as elbow and armpit enter the water
(if you do martial arts or boxing you'll know that a powerful stamp or punch noise comes from
the hip movement, if you try to stamp on the floor it'll be weak but if you lead the stamp with the hip it will be "Boom")

one thing to watch though is closing down the angle of the high side arm before entry too much
that's why i found that the highside hip initiating the grab on the water also finishes off the second half of the recovery.

As sheila says, just go nice and slowly to feel the core lengthening & loading forward.

Zenturtle 08-01-2018 06:04 AM

this is how the sinking swimmer looks underwater.

weight above low arm
picture hosting


Arm has landed in the water. (so wide, that it causes drag by the way)
photo hosting

Totally under water, arm starts to pull, elbow starts to drop


At full anchor, partly dropped elbow
fotos delen

This guy is strong and a pretty good swimmer, but you can see the tendency of a dropped elbow is there. in his case he is holding everything still reasonably together.
Beginning swimmers wont be able to hold the elbow up if they want to swim faster than very relaxed with this timing.
And where has the potential energy gone? I dont know.

Swimming with this timing and lack of paddle setup is missing efficiency in 4 manners:

1 Not transferring weight into propulsion
2 Not setting up an optimal propulsive maximal drag shape for anchoring properly, therefore creating extra slippage of water around the anchor.
3 Not setting up a proper time envelope for increasing the pressure on the anchor. Optimal traction is generated when the pressure is build up gradually toward the maximal leverage point and held or increased from there on.
4 Increase of velocity variation during the cycle, which leads to extra energy expenditure compared to swimming with constant forward velocity.

The posiible positive influence is that the body is slightly longer in a long streamlined shape, but as can be seen, the difference with Kirby is very minimal.
Even though the timing and setup differences are subtle, seen from the outside, the resulting effect on the total stroke is quite significant. This transition at the front influences the whole following underwater phase of the low side, and that has also an effect how your core and the rest of the body reacts on this different force on the underwater side.
A differnt anchor on the low side also effects the effectiveness of the possible forward throwing action of the high side,
because this forward throwing also finds a partial foundation in the low side anchor.

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66148)
this is how the sinking swimmer looks underwater.

weight above low arm
picture hosting


Arm has landed in the water. (so wide, that it causes drag by the way)
photo hosting

Totally under water, arm starts to pull, elbow starts to drop


At full anchor, partly dropped elbow
fotos delen

This guy is strong and a pretty good swimmer, but you can see the tendency of a dropped elbow is there. in his case he is holding everything still reasonably together.
Beginning swimmers wont be able to hold the elbow up if they want to swim faster than very relaxed with this timing.
And where has the potential energy gone? I dont know.

Swimming with this timing and lack of paddle setup is missing efficiency in 4 manners:

1 Not transferring weight into propulsion
2 Not setting up an optimal propulsive maximal drag shape for anchoring properly, therefore creating extra slippage of water around the anchor.
3 Not setting up a proper time envelope for increasing the pressure on the anchor. Optimal traction is generated when the pressure is build up gradually toward the maximal leverage point and held or increased from there on.
4 Increase of velocity variation during the cycle, which leads to extra energy expenditure compared to swimming with constant forward velocity.

The posiible positive influence is that the body is slightly longer in a long streamlined shape, but as can be seen, the difference with Kirby is very minimal.
Even though the timing and setup differences are subtle, seen from the outside, the resulting effect on the total stroke is quite significant. This transition at the front influences the whole following underwater phase of the low side, and that has also an effect how your core and the rest of the body reacts on this different force on the underwater side.
A differnt anchor on the low side also effects the effectiveness of the possible forward throwing action of the high side,
because this forward throwing also finds a partial foundation in the low side anchor.

So you think it's naff then?

I've been practising all morning
the wider arm keeps the upperarm higher which seems to reduce drag i found?

I think the main benefit is that both arms are out over the front which greatly aids in keeping the hips and legs up

i watch the other swimmers doing classic high elbow recovery with a full finish and the all were dragging lowish legs

whereas i was relativley cruising along pretty much on the surface

i did focus on keeping the elbow up at catch and i could tell when i let it slip.

it's like classic TI keeping that lead arm out but letting it drop like a slowly sinking surfboard.

I pretty much had what lezak was talking about, early catch connected to the core (hips)

There is a point where the anchor starts to control the recovery arm, but once it punches in your running on the other edge nicely.

I found the key is in the transition of the hips thru flat to the other edge, get this smooth and timed right and you can really ramp it up.

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 09:45 AM

I was getting some envious looks off the other freestylers and was by far the fastest there this morning

Its quite easy to morph into shoulder driven from this stroke too so you can turn that on & off at will, i was doing one length of each using the long hip driven stroke for recovery.

Zenturtle 08-01-2018 12:47 PM

I dont know how you swim. I dont know how well you are physically able to make a high elbow at the front of your stroke , your shoulder flexibility and your risk for shoulder injuries.
This determines at what angle you want to have the leading arm and how soon you have to start preparing for catch.
Also the natural balance varies between persons, which also shifts priorities in the execution.
If you have stiff weak shoulders, tight hipflexors, tight ankles and sinky legs, pff, makes it all more difficult.
If not, lucky you.

Its hard to discuss personal perceptions without pictures.

the wider arm keeps the upperarm higher which seems to reduce drag i found? No idea what you mean.

I think the main benefit is that both arms are out over the front which greatly aids in keeping the hips and legs up
yeah, that is a benefit

i watch the other swimmers doing classic high elbow recovery with a full finish and the all were dragging lowish legs
You mean you are against finishing the stroke? dragging legs can have lots of causes

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66153)
I dont know how you swim. I dont know how well you are physically able to make a high elbow at the front of your stroke , your shoulder flexibility and your risk for shoulder injuries.
This determines at what angle you want to have the leading arm and how soon you have to start preparing for catch.
Also the natural balance varies between persons, which also shifts priorities in the execution.
If you have stiff weak shoulders, tight hipflexors, tight ankles and sinky legs, pff, makes it all more difficult.
If not, lucky you.

Its hard to discuss personal perceptions without pictures.

the wider arm keeps the upperarm higher which seems to reduce drag i found? No idea what you mean.

I think the main benefit is that both arms are out over the front which greatly aids in keeping the hips and legs up
yeah, that is a benefit

i watch the other swimmers doing classic high elbow recovery with a full finish and the all were dragging lowish legs
You mean you are against finishing the stroke? dragging legs can have lots of causes

Yes, i feather out before the finish and back to the front, this keeps both arms out over the front.
i find if i fully finish it delays the return to the front, couple that with a high elbow recovery and you dont get the level position of the body, the legs sit lower.

re drag from upper arm, this is a big issue, the deeper the upperarm goes the more drag, so by entering shoulder width and sweeping out wide it minimises the depth of the upper arm keeping it nearer the surface. (wider makes it a bit easier to get a high elbow catch too i find.
i'll post a vid on upper arm below.

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 01:08 PM

v
https://youtu.be/yOVRbVxLktw

Zenturtle 08-01-2018 01:14 PM

havent seen this one. like this guy. Have seen other good descriptions from him.
Agree with his descriptions.

Going wider makes it easier to catch properly I agree. Dont want to go to wide though. Its all a bit personal within certain OK limits.

Zenturtle 08-01-2018 01:25 PM

so you try to have this kind of exit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFsgNSDYzks

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 05:47 PM

Yes! the "karate chop" exit

it's actually a butterfly exit with butterfly like arm recovery

"all 4 strokes will teach you about the others" this is very true

breaststroke is the best way to learn how to set up the catch, i swim half breast then morph into freestyle
the back & underside of the upper arm is key (catch with it, keep upper arm high to minimise drag.

Sheila taormina stroke exit, this really works
v

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 05:51 PM

https://youtu.be/OdaP6DdrQIw

This is great, hand pitch is everything to blend smoothly into the recovery

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66157)
havent seen this one. like this guy. Have seen other good descriptions from him.
Agree with his descriptions.

Going wider makes it easier to catch properly I agree. Dont want to go to wide though. Its all a bit personal within certain OK limits.

KPN says go wide to "V" narrow ie sweep wide but retract pull towards torso


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