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-   -   I need O2 in my life! (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9546)

whoiscathy 03-06-2018 12:42 PM

I need O2 in my life! (Learning to breathe in FS)
 
So, I have yet to take a breath... Any breath, wonky or pretty -- at this point I'd take anything. I've got water in more times than I care to count. Sometimes so much water I was puking for hours afterwards. So I go 25s without breathing at all but I know it isn't the solution.

Almost at the 4 month mark now. Quite annoyed.

Danny 03-06-2018 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 64914)
At the moment I also "hate" it. I have yet to take a breath... Any breath, wonky or pretty -- at this point I'd take anything. I've got water in more times than I care to count. Sometimes so much water I was puking for hours afterwards. So I go 25s without breathing at all but I know it isn't the solution.

Almost at the 4 month mark now. Quite annoyed.

Cathy, your response above is alarming, and I'm sure it will arouse lots of feedback, so here is mine. I think part of your problem may be that you have set yourself some unrealistic goals. You are almost at the 4 month mark now, and quite dissatisfied with your progress. I feel for you. I have been swimming for 20 years now and I have spent most of that time dissatisfied with my progress as well. I will leave it to others to give you advice about how to swim without inhaling water. But part of the problem may be your frustration about your progress. We are all different, and our past histories also play a role in how fast we progress. Swim instructors can sometimes be too quick to predict vast improvement. Otherwise they may not be doing their job.

I would suggest going back to some level you feel comfortable with in the water. Right now it is more important for you to re-establish a sense of enjoyment than to learn how to breath properly. Without the enjoyment, there is no sense in any of the rest of this.

Good luck and keep us informed!

whoiscathy 03-06-2018 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 64915)

I would suggest going back to some level you feel comfortable with in the water. Right now it is more important for you to re-establish a sense of enjoyment than to learn how to breath properly. Without the enjoyment, there is no sense in any of the rest of this.

Danny, I am comfortable in the water. I even enjoy it. I don't get water in while "just" swimming, meaning, I go 25m, no problem. Problem is that I just can't (progress to) breathe. All my breathing attempts end up in a drowning frenzy. That frustrates me. :(

WFEGb 03-06-2018 10:46 PM

Hello Cathy,

as Danny wrote: Most important seems to be finding your enjoyment again! Four months of learning breathing in FS definitely isn't a long time...

My first thought is: How to go to revise (or test) the roots? Balance-Streamline-Balance-Streamline...

Did you go through a course step by step? (Terry's 1.0 or the older Perpetual Motion.) Otherwise give it a try and start with first step...

Is it possible to put a video in here, so someone might find an issue causing your frustration...

And have in mind, three of Terry's mantras:

- Never practice struggle

- Strive for conscious inkompetenz

- Love the plateau

- If you don't reach your goal today, take it neither good nor bad. It's simply a fact to work with tomorrow. (Not sure, if it's from Terry...)

Hope you'll find enjoyment in every stroke soon!

Best regards,
Werner

whoiscathy 03-06-2018 11:21 PM

Hello Werner,

Nonono :) I started to swim as such on the 7th Nov last year. So that will be 4 months tomorrow. I'd never swum before. Breathing "only" in the last two or three weeks (can't remember).

We're using the Ultra-Efficient Freestyle.

Problem is that I'm moving within days and the new pool is 50m so I can't get away with this one length on one breath thing anymore and I hate to be the wonky one in the pool. I'm a very shy person who generally struggles with self-confidence and going like that to a new pool fills me with anxiety. I really wanted to fix it while still here in my usual pool. Plus I signed up to an OW race for this summer. Not sure what I was thinking!

I guess I have some kind of balance and streamline as long as I don't try to turn my head like in a whale eye (nod is ok). In whale eye, everything falls apart: timing (hand not patient anymore), recovery goes up to the sky again, and my leading arm likes to drift closer to the surface and towards the center of the body. Not quite crossing over, but not wide tracks anymore. All this just by also rotating my head. Perplexing! Also, my head is bobbing somewhat and when I turn to breathe my head is at its lowest position so I only find water, not air. Yesterday, by some miracle, somehow I found air twice except by then I didn't trust myself to the extent that my mouth was actually closed and the whole time I held my breath, not quite trusting that I could possibly get any air in... Could be easier to grow gills than to learn this!

I'll think about posting a video. Feeling too shy at the moment. But I guess it's hard to comment if I don't post anything.



Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 64917)
Hello Cathy,

as Danny wrote: Most important seems to be finding your enjoyment again! Four months of learning breathing in FS definitely isn't a long time...

My first thought is: How to go to revise (or test) the roots? Balance-Streamline-Balance-Streamline...

Did you go through a course step by step? (Terry's 1.0 or the older Perpetual Motion.) Otherwise give it a try and start with first step...

Is it possible to put a video in here, so someone might find an issue causing your frustration...

And have in mind, three of Terry's mantras:

- Never practice struggle

- Strive for conscious inkompetenz

- Love the plateau

- If you don't reach your goal today, take it neither good nor bad. It's simply a fact to work with tomorrow. (Not sure, if it's from Terry...)

Hope you'll find enjoyment in every stroke soon!

Best regards,
Werner


WFEGb 03-07-2018 10:41 AM

Hello Cathy,

some thoughts, don't know if they'll fit in anyway...

Quote:

Problem is that I'm moving within days and the new pool is 50m so I can't get away with this one length on one breath thing anymore and I hate to be the wonky one in the pool. I'm a very shy person who generally struggles with self-confidence and going like that to a new pool fills me with anxiety. I really wanted to fix it while still here in my usual pool. Plus I signed up to an OW race for this summer. Not sure what I was thinking!
Ok, a LCM-pool here in Hamburg doesn't have a shallow end, so some of the drills are more difficult. But most have one or more small gym-pools aside, which are ideal for all kind of drills... and have warmer water :-) ...

But LCM-pools are most times filled with kind and helpful swimmers and much less mischievous spa-bathers. Most will be glad to have a look at your drills, before they will start or when they finished their sets. (BTW you should tell them very detailed where they should have to look for, because most of them don't have TI-eyes...)

You should feel as really braveheart and pull much self-confidence out of the fact just doing some drills in the new pool. Do them on the edges to be able to stop at once to reset, never drive yourself into a state of breathlessness (everything will fall appart if so...). And possibly you're the only person in the pool being aware to have an endless way full of challenging joy just in front of you. During the just happened Olympics a Korean adage was: If you want to go for a long march, the first step is half the way. (As mathematician not sure how this will deal with endless ways... but like it anyway.)

Have in mind it is extremely difficult to turn 8% of your body's mass relaxed on your neck while 92% should drive straight ahead. (Terry called it the most difficult exercise in all swimming.) So two things into "the blue sky" (as we in Germany say. Into the deep blue would be better in this case...)

- You are able to look aside and hold your balanced and streamlined bodyline... Try to be aware if you're really in skate-position while doing it. One of my students said the same, but he looked just aside while swimming flat. Did your chin really follow your shoulder? What happens, if you rotate 10° more... as if an apple is glued on your shoulder and on your chin?

- Develop some awareness, of in which moment your body starts to go below surface totally. And then sharpen your awareness, where in your body tension sneaked just before. Most times I (from outside) find tension in the spearing hand and/or arm (sometimes reaching to surface), the shoulders, the neck... and all this unconscious only caused by the thought: I've to turn my head to get a breath. Result is just the opposit: A former on suface well balanced swimmer sinks down 10-20cm away from air...

Sometimes we have to refine a hoped huge step in future for ourself with some smaller steps we're able to take just now... Find some things to enjoy even the smaller steps. Can't imagine anything might be as good as the Kaizen-way (especially TI's).

Best regards,
Werner

BTW: I'm in these forums for 5-6years now. It happened only one single time when a poster wrote extremely unobjective and grossly rude comments about a (coach's) video. He got a legitimate writing ban from Terry. All other videos resulted in very helpful hints (my own included)...

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 11:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 64918)
Hello Werner,

Nonono :) I started to swim as such on the 7th Nov last year. So that will be 4 months tomorrow. I'd never swum before. Breathing "only" in the last two or three weeks (can't remember).

We're using the Ultra-Efficient Freestyle.

Problem is that I'm moving within days and the new pool is 50m so I can't get away with this one length on one breath thing anymore and I hate to be the wonky one in the pool. I'm a very shy person who generally struggles with self-confidence and going like that to a new pool fills me with anxiety. I really wanted to fix it while still here in my usual pool. Plus I signed up to an OW race for this summer. Not sure what I was thinking!

I guess I have some kind of balance and streamline as long as I don't try to turn my head like in a whale eye (nod is ok). In whale eye, everything falls apart: timing (hand not patient anymore), recovery goes up to the sky again, and my leading arm likes to drift closer to the surface and towards the center of the body. Not quite crossing over, but not wide tracks anymore. All this just by also rotating my head. Perplexing! Also, my head is bobbing somewhat and when I turn to breathe my head is at its lowest position so I only find water, not air. Yesterday, by some miracle, somehow I found air twice except by then I didn't trust myself to the extent that my mouth was actually closed and the whole time I held my breath, not quite trusting that I could possibly get any air in... Could be easier to grow gills than to learn this!

I'll think about posting a video. Feeling too shy at the moment. But I guess it's hard to comment if I don't post anything.

You can have a look at this video
https://youtu.be/5V5PYspkknE

Some good tips on breathing and turning to breath in there, try not to lunge upwards for air or lurch to the side, keep straight and arrowing fowards, the breath is taken with a mouth like fish that has been hooked (lips pursed to the side)
when you fingertips enter the water turn your head away from that arm and look slightly backwards towards the tip of the upper shoulder
turn your face back down as recovery arm reaches shoulder height

Lean over the front of the stroke more and press your chest in

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 11:29 AM

P.S you can try something i picked up on this morning,
Try entering closer to your head, swipe your thumb on the side of your goggles and enter just ahead of that point

this will give you more support and longer to breath if you turn away from that arm as the fingers pierce the water and it extends all the way out to straight

whoiscathy 03-07-2018 12:04 PM

Be gentle :)
 
Alright, I'll upload a video. https://youtu.be/QKfajVHqf1s

I merged 2 videos. The first half was recorded last Saturday (03-03-2018) and the second half, starting at 02:12-ish, only 2 days later. I didn't attempt to breathe or do nod/whale eye in the first half, but it shows quite well my non-breathing swimming.

I think that my balance, generally speaking, is ok. Am I arching too much?

Some things I'm aware of, and working on:

- I look slightly or not so slightly forward, not straight down.
- Head bobbing (which is probably a cumulative effect of some of the following points below)
- Left entry way too much ahead of my head --> elbow splashing. Not spearing straight to target. I then push down my entire left arm.
- no TI logo with right arm unless I concentrate, but if I do manage to do a TI logo it normally comes with a thumb first entry
- Sometimes I start the catch jut a tad too early. I can do proper patient hands but it still requires 101% concentration
- I push down and not backwards during parts of the stroke. Aware of this, don't have enough body awareness for the fix...

- Right hand sometimes too high over water. Very occasionally left hand too.
- I tend to exit with left hand too early.
- My palms face upwards upon exit and I throw water out of the pool. Maybe that pushes my entire upper body down?
- I simply forget to kick when I'm really concentrating on something else!
- When it comes to the breathing part, I, at the moment, have very little awareness of what's going on. Perhaps a bit too early for me to breathe with all those things to be sorted out, but like I said, I'd really like to make a progress this week if I manage. Before I do a drowning frenzy in the 50m pool :))


So many things! I'm very new to this :)

whoiscathy 03-07-2018 12:09 PM

One more thing. I can't do Popeye. Meaning I don't know how to contort my mouth into that shape even now in front of my laptop.

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 12:35 PM

Not bad but Arms Too wide and too far forward

You'll struggle to breathe form there

Tap your temple with your thumb and enter just in front (ear hop)

And when arm extends extend until your shoulder in touching your cheek or chin

this will rotate you more and you'll be able to breathe comfortably

You are too wide and it is stifling your rotation

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 12:39 PM

When your bicep / shoulder is touching your chin just glide and turn your head 90 degress to the side and you'll breathe air

In full swimming you'll turn face as your spear arm is extending so your ear will be laying on your shoulder

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 12:43 PM

Just hop over your ear with your recovering hand and spear straight forward in front of your shoulder until full extention

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 12:57 PM

Do this
https://youtu.be/YwOHzq8Qgso

when you reach the final floating position just start swimming from there

whoiscathy 03-07-2018 01:05 PM

Boomer's
 
Aquatic signature

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 01:05 PM

Leave lead arm out dont move it

pause recovery hand above your ear (touch thumb to temple.

At the same time move hamd above ear slightly outwards away from the head and simultaneously move the lead arm out slightly wider and FIRE
spear recovery hand in and catch with underwater lead arm at he same time

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 01:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 64931)

Grow your neck and bring your arms up to just below shoulder level you'll ride flat

whoiscathy 03-07-2018 01:20 PM

Yes, I'm quite flat in the water eve with very little to no momentum.

I prefer to just glide gracefully. Anything I do compared to this just makes it worse.

Mushroomfloat 03-07-2018 01:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 64934)
Yes, I'm quite flat in the water eve with very little to no momentum.

I prefer to just glide gracefully. Anything I do compared to this just makes it worse.

Thats perfect i was correcting your deadman float picture you posted with your hips and legs lying low

whoiscathy 03-07-2018 01:25 PM

I intended to post my Boomer aquatic signature. Maybe it's the same as the dead man float.

WFEGb 03-07-2018 11:59 PM

Hello Cathy,

WOW!!!
achieving this kind of stroke in only four months is really impressiv! To collect all the goodies in your stroke would burst a forum's post. You have all rights to be proud of it!

At least to me this stroke doesn't seem to cause breathing problems. Ok, it does... Even your sometimes recognizable bopping is by far not so deep as if you'll need a dolphin-like jump out of the water to get a breath. So let me suggest some FPs of awareness for your next pooltimes:

- Are your spear-targets deep enough, that your fingertips are just below bodyline, then wrist, then elbow then shoulder... every time?

- Do you hit these targets just with your spearing-movement without corrections while arm is straight?

- Where in front(?) of your head is your best felt entry-point to spear without resistance to the targets?

- Is your speared arm patient enough to stay unmoved until the other hand drops into its mailslot?

- Is it possible to move the ragdoll-arm far away from bodyside and palm back all the way and dropping hand with palm back (not thumb first)?

- Can you realize, that your elbow is leading your recovery further up to front, if you're looking straight down?

- Does your chin really follow your shoulder to look sideway as far as possible without stress in your neck? (Farest is possilbe if you don't stress your neck neither chin to belly nore chin up. And sometimes it might be, the weightless neutral head feels so good, that it becomes hard to disturb it with rotation work, resulting in a much too late and not far enough sideway rotation...)

- Do you feel your core working in cooperation with all your (rotation-)movements?

- Do you really take only a single FP at time (do so with the above)?

Your way to breathing is as short as the distance of your mouth to surface. You'll get it very soon. Look forward to it, but not with your eyes when swimming FS :-)

Be proud and enjoy the way!

Best regards,
Werner

Mushroomfloat 03-08-2018 01:52 AM

Here is a video deminstrating what i mean by connecting your cheek to your shoulder when spearing and breathing

https://youtu.be/j_7wx06VsSM

whoiscathy 03-08-2018 08:10 AM

Huge thank you, Werner! Your comment has given me wings.

Quote:

Do you really take only a single FP at time (do so with the above)?
Several points on your list have been in my mind while swimming, and you also highlighted my mistake that may have, in fact, prevented me from fixing, for example, the left spear: that I've been trying to focus on multiple FPs simultaneously. Never works!

My Coach has been saying the same, but apparently it's taken me months to really hear it out: I only started to really focus on one single FP maybe 8-10 days ago and that alone has been a learning curve :)

I'm having a very hard time with just one because I can sense real time as the rest of the stroke is falling apart and then I must fix "everything".
With the spear, it had been left mailslot entry & spear. So I start a length with clean slot entries and spearing straight to the target. For 2 strokes... Eventually, my 2bk (which I can do rather cleanly, with no little stabilizing kicks in-between but only if I focus on it) takes over, often after just 5-6 strokes and I seem to forget about the left entry, even though I started the whole length trying to fix the spear - only to notice at the end that I got hijacked again.

Oh and even you said the same thing to me already before. (My proprioception has certainly improved compared to that thread!)

I'll try my best again and again. Thanks again.

whoiscathy 03-08-2018 08:21 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 64947)
Here is a video deminstrating what i mean by connecting your cheek to your shoulder when spearing and breathing

https://youtu.be/j_7wx06VsSM

I've seen that video long ago. I can see how it can be helpful in some cases but I think it may also introduce another problem I don't have at the moment. So I "fix" one, and develop another.

As I see it, it encourages shrugging (which is quite bad for the shoulder joint) and/or narrow tracks (which I've been working hard on to fix). If you look at my build you can see that for my shoulder/upper arm to touch my face I either have to push my head to the side or shrug my shoulder.

In other words, it goes against the advice that there should be "a small apple" stuck between your shoulder and head. Not to mention that in TI you spear deeper so if you were to follow that advice, it might even make you tuck your head and dive.

WFEGb 03-08-2018 10:22 AM

Hello Cathy,

Quote:

...My Coach has been saying the same, but apparently it's taken me months to really hear it out: ...
It will not be the last time that hearing/reading exactly the same words will give them a whole somewhat new and deeper sense. Uncounted times I thought: Oh, last time I heared it some time ago, but now I did reallyunderstand... same words... and same thoughts six months later. Now I try to think: Oh a new understanding of the old things, curious what will happen with that in six months...

What popped up in my mind while looking at your stroke and reading about your difficulties to get air. Normally we don't teach our interrupted breathing anymore. But in your case it might be a good experience to get some confidence to get enough air that way...

When you'll decide to go to air, rotate more (leading arm unmoved (just turn your palm to pool's ceiling) other arm in the deep jeans-pocket) until you're just on your back, but on a balanced point where you don't get flat on back, more a balanced skate on back (has been called the sweet spot). In this (relaxed) position you'll have "all time of the world" to get enough air in 1-3 breathers. Then turn back (palm turning down/backward, body rotating back around the spine-arm-line, hand/arm moves with a smooth recovery to mailslot) and take your next 3-5 strokes then same on the other side. When you got familiar with that shorten the interruptions down to a short inhale... to keep the interruptions shorter. It's simply the other way round to seamless breathing...

Enjoy with best regards,
Werner

Mushroomfloat 03-08-2018 10:25 AM

The deep spear is a learning tool as you get better you can spear higher
Spearing higher will support your breath whilst you take it, your deep angled spear will actually pull you down due to water drag on the frontside of the arm further making more difficult to reach air.

There is shrugging and there is scapular elevation 2 different things, how are you intending to streamline off the pool walls then?

Super wide tracks stifle rotation further hampering breathing for a beginner who cannot take a breath.

Good luck

Mushroomfloat 03-08-2018 11:11 AM

I should add RE spearing

"deep & narrow" or "high & wide"

whoiscathy 03-08-2018 04:54 PM

Not much development on the breathing front per se, but I think my left spear should have improved. I didn't get to record myself because the pool was so full, but I'll get to see it soon anyway because I'll be recorded again tomorrow morning :)

To be fair, I must add that a huge part of my stroke has happened because of my Coach, Johnny Widén!

To your earlier comment, Werner:

Quote:

At least to me this stroke doesn't seem to cause breathing problems. Ok, it does... Even your sometimes recognizable bopping is by far not so deep as if you'll need a dolphin-like jump out of the water to get a breath.
(...)
Your way to breathing is as short as the distance of your mouth to surface. You'll get it very soon.
When I was doing whale eye today I tried to really let that sink in. I enjoyed the stereoscopic view and saw just how close the surface really is. Hopefully tomorrow, or very soon.

whoiscathy 03-08-2018 04:56 PM

In case this thread starts a bit abruptly: it has been removed from the Freestyle love/hate relationship thread and relocated here.

WFEGb 03-08-2018 06:00 PM

Hello Cathy,

Quote:

To be fair, I must add that a huge part of my stroke has happened because of my Coach, Johnny Widén!
Stay fair with yourself, Johnny undoubtedly did a great job, but you have to swim!

And with Johnny as your Coach you are, as we in Germany say, best saved as good as in Abraham's lap.

Now it becomes clearer to me, what your very first 3-10 FPs have to be. They are even more difficult and complicated than breathing in FS, or a well tuned 2BK... (know it from my own experience)

- be patient with yourself
- be patient with yourself
- be patient with yourself
.
.

Best regards,
Werner

PS: Terry said to imprint a new skill you have to do it mindfully 7000 times...
Mat is a little more generous, he says, mindfully 4000 times...
I'm nearly sure: You'll get it with mindfully 3000 times!

Mushroomfloat 03-08-2018 07:19 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 64960)
Not much development on the breathing front per se, but I think my left spear should have improved. I didn't get to record myself because the pool was so full, but I'll get to see it soon anyway because I'll be recorded again tomorrow morning :)

To be fair, I must add that a huge part of my stroke has happened because of my Coach, Johnny Widén!

To your earlier comment, Werner:



When I was doing whale eye today I tried to really let that sink in. I enjoyed the stereoscopic view and saw just how close the surface really is. Hopefully tomorrow, or very soon.

You just need to spear higher
Your deep arms are catching frontal drag and this is pulling you down deeper
This is where your bobbing is coming from

You are being pulled deeper by oncoming water pressure hitting the steep angle of your lead arm

whoiscathy 03-08-2018 08:23 PM

Floating Shrooms, what are your credentials to talk to people like that, and constantly? Even after Coaches' comments, you just go ahead and throw in your $0.02. See for instance this one was rather arrogant. I was shocked!

Are you sure it's okay and nice to do this regularly, even when a Coach just commented before you? May I see your video please?

I'm sure you know something. Like I do, I also know something, I'm a structural engineer. Incidentally, with a PhD in engineering. Not to brag but I also have some idea about things when it comes to mechanics, yet I rather just listen because I don't have the credentials to act like I'm a besserwisser when one can look at my video and they can see I'm just a nobody. For now.

On deep spearing: I could quote but just off the top of my head, by spearing deep you actually reduce overall drag because your legs would be higher so you reduce drag where it really matters (on the quads).

Yes, you may or may not have a point to some extent; I'm also sure that I do have some frontal drag from that. However, I also talked to David Shen over facebook and he told me a couple other things that may contribute to my head bobbing. You didn't pick up on those details. Interestingly, he didn't mention deep spearing. He mentioned several things I'm working on, and I was super grateful. I must add that with all his expertise he was much humbler than you so far.

Yesterday when I posted my video I was genuinely hoping that you'd skip it. I've read too many of these from you. You don't know me because I post very little but I've seen you throwing these kind of comments everywhere.

I just didn't want to be bashed by you. And then I log in again... I'm a beginner with a 4 month swimming history, I'd never swum before, and what do I see from you? I quote, "not bad but". Aha... no, thanks. Just... no. Please. Can you be just a tad kinder? More respectful?

Or just ignore me, really. I'm fine with that. Thanks.

IngeA 03-08-2018 09:38 PM

Are you exhaling under water? I can't see any bubbles in the video, but maybe it's the fault of my old screen of the computer.

I also had problems with breathing. One thing was that I didn't exhale under water. So the time to get air was too short because I had to exhale and inhale when I turned the head.
Some time I took a snorkel and then tried to imitate the rhythm of exhaling and inhaling without water in the mouth and coughing.

The other thing was that my core stability broke down the moment I turned the head to breathe. This was something that got better itself with more experience.

4 months is a very short time to learn a new stroke and yours look really very good. I doubt that my stroke looked like this after 4 months. I'm sure you will easily learn to breathe when you have capacities to concentrate on breathing. At the moment all of the stroke is new, it's too much to concentrate an all focal points at one time.

Best regards
Inge

Danny 03-09-2018 07:56 PM

There are two different ways to learn swimming, and I am about to offer an alternative which many people may be horrified at. If you look at most reasonably effective free-stylers, who can swim distance comfortably, the large majority of them raise their head when breathing. This is a terrible no-no in TI for good reasons: it slows you down and makes your stroke less efficient. On the other hand, it may be a reasonable alternative to drowning.

Unlike you, Cathy, I didn't actually see film of myself doing freestyle until I had been already swimming for a number of years. The first thing I noticed when I saw that film was that I was raising my head while breathing. Since then I have been working on correcting this process, and I am making some reasonable progress, as evidenced by the fact that I now can create a bow wave when I swim. By the time I started working on this issue, I already had a number of other things internalized to the point where I didn't have to feel like I was drowning in the process. Instead I could work on it in an evolutionary fashion that didn't stress me out.

There is an old saying "Don't let the perfect become the enemy of the good" Sometimes perfectionists have the hardest time learning freestyle because they get hung up on things that can impede their progress in other directions. Put another way, there is a time and place to correct every error in your stroke. I don't claim to know, but you may be choosing the wrong time to work on this one. Just a humble suggestion...

Danny 03-09-2018 08:13 PM

Just for the sake of clarity, here is a way to breath which is bad swimming technique, but otherwise quite comfortable. Don't look at this as what you are ultimately aiming for, but rather an interim technique. If you can teach yourself to do this well, you can work on correct breathing technique slowly in an evolutionary fashion. Other people may claim it is better to learn things right the first time, but there is (to me at least) an apparent contradiction in this claim. None of us swim perfectly. Even Terry Laughlin admitted to having problems he was still working on. But that didn't stop him from swimming and setting world records. So here goes:

When it is time to breath, make sure the palm of your forward hand is horizontal to the surface of the water. Do not spear deep, but rather aim shallow. The horizontal palm provides more water resistance to sinking. It will help you to raise your head when you want to breath. When it is time to breath, do not look down at the bottom of the pool. Instead look forward, because this will automatically tend to raise your head. Then when you role to breath, use that extended arm and flat palm to support yourself so your mouth comes out of the water. You will have to play around with this, but I find it makes breathing much easier.

It is also heresy, a lesson in how not to swim TI. If you decide to reject it outright, don't feel bad in telling me. Like I said, just a modest proposal...

whoiscathy 03-11-2018 06:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by IngeA (Post 64969)
Are you exhaling under water? I can't see any bubbles in the video, but maybe it's the fault of my old screen of the computer.

I also had problems with breathing. One thing was that I didn't exhale under water. So the time to get air was too short because I had to exhale and inhale when I turned the head.
Some time I took a snorkel and then tried to imitate the rhythm of exhaling and inhaling without water in the mouth and coughing.

The other thing was that my core stability broke down the moment I turned the head to breathe. This was something that got better itself with more experience.

4 months is a very short time to learn a new stroke and yours look really very good. I doubt that my stroke looked like this after 4 months. I'm sure you will easily learn to breathe when you have capacities to concentrate on breathing. At the moment all of the stroke is new, it's too much to concentrate an all focal points at one time.

Hi Inge,

Thanks!
I also felt I was turning into a banana every time I attempted to breathe. It wasn't a head lift. I think I knew I "shouldn't" lift the head, so instead I turned into a banana. Something to work on.

It's indeed too much in such a short time. I can't wrap my head around how people learn to swim TI in a weekend workshop, whatever that means (from zero? Good TI in a weekend?) because it's been oh, so many things.

I'm a true beginner: Johnny doesn't even have a before movie of me because I flat out refused to swim, saying that "I don't know how to swim FS", which was the case. Even just 7 weeks ago, I emailed him that I realized I was actually uncomfortable being face down in the deep end. Ha.
So, yes, breathing the TI way may be indeed a bit premature for me.

I didn't exhale in the first half of the video, or maybe a bit. I exhaled rather erratically in the second half. I think. Hard to know because I've gotten used to swimming on one breath (one length is easy). So now I need to train myself to exhale. It's funny because when I do drills I exhale, but not in whole stroke.

Thank you for the compliment!


Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 64977)
(...) an alternative which many people may be horrified at (...) raise their head when breathing. This is a terrible no-no in TI for good reasons: it slows you down and makes your stroke less efficient. On the other hand, it may be a reasonable alternative to drowning.

(...) I was raising my head while breathing. (...) By the time I started working on this issue, I already had a number of other things internalized to the point where I didn't have to feel like I was drowning in the process.

(...) perfectionists have the hardest time learning freestyle because they get hung up on things that can impede their progress in other directions. Put another way, there is a time and place to correct every error in your stroke. I don't claim to know, but you may be choosing the wrong time to work on this one (...).

(...) rather an interim technique. If you can teach yourself to do this well, you can work on correct breathing technique slowly in an evolutionary fashion. Other people may claim it is better to learn things right the first time, but there is (to me at least) an apparent contradiction in this claim. (...)

It is also heresy, a lesson in how not to swim TI.

Hi Danny,

Thanks for the suggestions! See my response to Inge regarding the timing. Perhaps it's indeed too early for me to get hung up on The Proper TI Breathing. I tend to be a perfectionist... I've already hung up on so many things mid stroke. LOL

We swam again just 6 days after that (meaning I got recorded again, why not) and I really think it went better. Nicer recovery, left spear was better, rotation was snappier, and my patient hand timing was better, I think. (Could be all subjective; Johnny hasn't commented yet.) Head wasn't bobbing a lot. Only thing that was "worse" was my kick - somewhat bigger, at least when it wasn't my FP. Overall I felt I swam better. May share later. So much better that I felt that soon enough I might be ready for the "proper" breathing rehearsals.

However, my priority is also to get air one way or another, for now anyway, so I'll try your suggestions if I can't take a "proper" breath tomorrow again. Unfortunately I notice real time when I lift my head so it bugs me if I do, but I'll probably try it anyway and see. Or overrotate and turn my face to the ceiling, for now. I'll just have to remind myself not to get stuck there but look at it as an inbetween step. Thanks again!

whoiscathy 03-11-2018 06:16 PM

This is a status report from 24 January 2018:

"I had bad balance today, for some reason. I also felt my head was so low somehow that there was no way for me to ever breathe; I somehow felt I was "buried" in the water because my head was low but so was all my body, my hips, my legs. Like I could barely clear a shoulder, that's what I was feeling like. Like I couldn't even rotate enough.
Dafuq???

This sinking feeling made me not be able to recover my left arm AT ALL at some point. My left arm just wouldn't move anymore, as if my body had said, we're sinkiiiiinggg, forget arms, keep the arm near the body, don't lift it up, Jesus, we're sinkiiiin. Why :O

Only difference was that I was in the deep end of the pool. I had to realize I am NOT comfortable face down in the deep end. Weird realization; I've thought all this time I was! And it isn't so deep in that pool anyway."

IngeA 03-11-2018 06:51 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by whoiscathy (Post 64986)
I had to realize I am NOT comfortable face down in the deep end. Weird realization; I've thought all this time I was! And it isn't so deep in that pool anyway."

When I had problems with breathing, exactly this was the reason.
It took some time until I realised it, because I had no breathing problems before and before also I never felt uneasy in water. Not in deep water, not in currents, not in mountain rivers. I remarked that I had no breathing problems in shallow water.

It took some time to overcome this uneasiness. Many drills I did in the kiddy pool, there I felt safe and had no problems with breathing. And also I forced me to properly exhale. And I also slowed down my breathing rhythm from every other stroke to all four strokes.

And something else:
This is the normal happening when learning something new. There always comes a point where it seems that all you have learnt has gone. Keep up trying and don't be frustrated. Your skills will reappear :o)

Best regards
Inge

WFEGb 03-12-2018 03:06 PM

Hello Cathy,

Quote:

This is a status report from 24 January 2018:...
My calendar shows March 12th now. Seems there is a misunderstanding on my side. Can't find anything of this status report in your video. This can only show your huge improvement compared to this status!

Otherwise, if these things sneaked in again I'd suggest: Take a walk through all fundamental skills/drills... One after the other. This will become a fast walk.

And most important: Stay generous to yourself: Take only one FP at time and enjoy it with all your heart...

Best regards,
Werner

whoiscathy 03-12-2018 05:40 PM

Oh, I posted it to illustrate just how bad at some point -- just a couple of weeks ago -- it felt.

The video you've already seen was recorded recently.

Here's something from around the time of that "status report", the very end of January. Almost embarrassing, and as you can see I was really embarrassed during the recording because I just couldn't do a thing. Shaking my head several times. Haha!

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 65000)
Hello Cathy,

My calendar shows March 12th now. Seems there is a misunderstanding on my side. Can't find anything of this status report in your video. This can only show your huge improvement compared to this status!

Otherwise, if these things sneaked in again I'd suggest: Take a walk through all fundamental skills/drills... One after the other. This will become a fast walk.

And most important: Stay generous to yourself: Take only one FP at time and enjoy it with all your heart...

Best regards,
Werner



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