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-   -   Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9585)

sclim 04-14-2018 02:53 PM

Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? >> Rotation/Catch/Kick Variants
 
I am surprised this question didn't occur to me earlier.

Like so many struggling senior swimmers I have been trying to make my peace with the limitation of my limited shoulder internal rotation which makes it impossible to achieve the magical Early Vertical Forearm catch which elite swimmers demonstrate and which looks so painful to emulate (and indeed it is painful to try!)

I am repeatedly reassured by the various coaches on this forum that strict EVF is unnecessary, and that "sort of" vertical is good enough. Indeed, looking at Terry's video demonstrations, he achieves his legendary efficiency and ease with a forearm that really is quite far from vertical.

Nevertheless, the theoretical principal is unavoidable that a moving paddle (i.e. the forearm) whose plane is not perpendicular to the direction of movement will allow fluid fluid to slip along the non-perpendicular plane. That is why the early Vertical Forearm early in the catch is advocated. So I try to get as vertical as I can, which is not very vertical when my elbow is ahead of my body, as it would be immediately following the spearing phase. Keeping the spear wide helps, as this position allows a more vertical angulation with the same degree of limited internal rotation.

However, when turning over the various options in my head to get more perpendicular positioning of the forearm, I suddenly realized that perpendicular does not necessarily mean vertical. That is to say, with my elbow at that same ahead-of-body position that allows only limited forearm verticality (with my limited shoulder rotation) when catching, I can still flex my elbow and achieve better perpendicularity if I allow the hand to swing in an arc that is more obliquely inward, i.e. toward the midline before I allow my whole arm to pull. With my lack of flexibility the hand actually reaches the midline before the forearm is perpendicular to the direction of travel. Seen from the front the angle of my forearm would not be vertical so much as oblique, way less than 45 degrees, in fact. I notice that in his videos Terry's forearm comes inward somewhat similarly, though not as much as I am describing, before his whole arm movement starts.

As my whole arm sweeps past my trunk and my elbow passes my head, I notice I have more shoulder rotation room, and my forearm can get more vertical, so indeed it can move to verticality during the stroke.

So is this a reasonable way of getting forearm perpendicularity in the catch before the whole arm is allowed to move (or from the other perspective, to anchor as the body is pulled past)?

I see that the hand will then trace out an exaggerated "hourglass" path that we are expressly told not to do, so maybe that is my answer. But I would like an explanation from an expert why that will not work so well, even though the "perpendicular" aspect of the forearm paddle in the catch is better achieved in this way (given one's limited shoulder rotation).

Mushroomfloat 04-14-2018 03:59 PM

Gary Hall snr has a different take on evf

He says it is actually for reducing drag by pulling the arm up higher and not having it down deep

So IMO a slightly angled evf will still give drag reduction properties the same as an extreme vertical paddle.

Try it in the pool you will notice a big difference in streamline with arm deeper v with the elbow up high through the "pull"

i'll get the vid and post it

Mushroomfloat 04-14-2018 04:00 PM

Here:

https://youtu.be/wRN4AAT8XaE

sclim 04-14-2018 09:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65195)

OK; I've heard this before, and only vaguely understood it, but his detailed explanation of drag at the hand = 0 and drag of the (perpendicular and vertical) upper arm near the shoulder = maximum, and pro-rata for points in between for the first time made sense to me. Now I have a better basis for analyzing the drag versus propulsive force compromise.

Mushroomfloat 04-14-2018 09:37 PM

Yes it is a very good demonstration.

I thought it was all about catching and pulling / holding more water but as he points out its not the most powerful position (which is lower with a straighter arm under the body.

But as he says drag trumps power so the weaker evf position is more drag co efficient.
(and less tiring are also mentions)

WFEGb 04-15-2018 12:42 AM

Hello Sclim,

there is a short video from (Master)Coach David Cameron about the HEC, where he demonstrates the TI-point of view.

Last but not least we should think more about Terry's: Don't move water around, move your body forward. A good/ergonomic lever will be helpful, as much drag as possible will be helpful too, but if both are just used to move water around in vortex and whirl, we're simply "wasting" energy. So the miracle of the individual best catch and press (I think) will be that one, where we will feel the greatest ball of water behind our arm against which we can press ourself forward without disturbing the ball/water or only in least manner. And we can only achieve that with the simple - or better the much more difficult thing: We have to find the very best feeling for the water to become able to do so.

Best regards,
Werner

Mushroomfloat 04-15-2018 12:48 AM

Yes,

"Plant one arm & swing your body around it"

Like planting one arm in wet cement and using it to pull the recovering arm up & over ;-)

Which is the secret to this:
https://youtu.be/rCga-UiIjSA

Arguably the best freestyle ever seen.

sclim 04-16-2018 01:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 65198)
Hello Sclim,

there is a short video from (Master)Coach David Cameron about the HEC, where he demonstrates the TI-point of view.

Last but not least we should think more about Terry's: Don't move water around, move your body forward. A good/ergonomic lever will be helpful, as much drag as possible will be helpful too, but if both are just used to move water around in vortex and whirl, we're simply "wasting" energy. So the miracle of the individual best catch and press (I think) will be that one, where we will feel the greatest ball of water behind our arm against which we can press ourself forward without disturbing the ball/water or only in least manner. And we can only achieve that with the simple - or better the much more difficult thing: We have to find the very best feeling for the water to become able to do so.

Best regards,
Werner

As you may deduce from the direction of my questioning, I have a very poor sense of "feel" so far, and I was hoping to find "by the numbers" the most efficient forearm paddle orientation, and even some clue as to the complete arm trajectory that gives the "best grab of the ball of water" with the minimum of disruption of that ball during the grab and after it is let go, as well as the minimum of drag of those parts of the arm that are unavoidably exposed to frontal drag.

The more I reflect upon the complexity of the factors, the changing pluses and minuses of forces in real time as the stroke goes through its cycle, I realize the unavoidable truth of what you are saying -- the only way to develop an efficient (non-energy wasting) stroke, and to arrive at your own most efficient stroke is to monitor your constant various micro-experimentational changes in hand and arm angle and positioning in real time by feel. So there is no alternative except to develop this feel.

I have been trying to expose myself to this feel. Sometimes as I initiate the catch at the hand I think I can get a glimpse of this feel on my fingers and palm, and if I am diligent and lucky, sometimes this feel of a heavy ball of water expands to a more tangible resistance on my forearm as I anchor the mid-stroke. So I think I just have to be more diligent in my attempts at sensitivity.

WFEGb 04-16-2018 08:00 AM

Hello Sclim,

in his 2.0 Mastery Terry spends the first chapter to These things fairly detailed, but it will take huge parts of our patience to find improvements to our feeling for the water. The picture of the ball of water (and working with a real gym-ball) as using fistgloves (till ow never tried myself) and stroking with fists are main parts of Terry's way to learn...

My last pooltime (we only meet one three times a year) together with a former (high!) competition swimmer, I asked her: How do you get your extremely variable speed with same movement-tempo from?

Her answer: I'm getting a harder hook in the water...

Me: How do you do that?

She: Feeling for the water...

She's not in TI and I couldn't convince her, that TI-drills are best for just that. She said: Do other things than Swimming. Play in and with the water to get this Feelings on an other way.

She showed me two very funny things as example: Swimming FS just above the ground. (Really the whole movements included recovery movements(!), not spearswitches); and swimming frog-like backstroke also just above the ground...

Since long I swallowed half of the pool through my nose, and we had some heavy laughs together....

Best regards,
Werner

Mushroomfloat 04-16-2018 12:55 PM

I think people (me included) lose sight of the fact that we are supposed to be "Crawling" ie "front crawl"

Too much focus on a HEC / EVF on this side and a superman spear on the other and the connection throught the body via rotation is lost.

Sometimes its better to throw all that out the window and relax into a "Crawl" like your crawling over a massive sand dune on your belly, you ain't gonna use a dainty hand paddle are you? your gonna claw that beast like your holding a fat grapefruit in each palm.

liolio 04-16-2018 11:26 PM

What seems to work the best for me is a "shallow" pull, something close to EVF. My feel is the Gary Hall Jr comment on drag is right.
If you go with NTEVF (not too early vertical forearm... lol) I found it pretty energy efficient and if goes well with core strength and body rotation.

WFEGb 04-17-2018 08:22 AM

Hello liolio,

just for the acronyms-list, what does NTEVF mean?

Best regards,
Werner

borate 04-17-2018 02:26 PM

> ...just for the acronyms-list, what does NTEVF mean?

Last line in Liolio's post: "not too early vertical forearm." ^_^

WFEGb 04-17-2018 03:27 PM

Hello Borate,

thank you.... Sensitive reading has advantages... :-(

Best regards,
Werner

Tom Pamperin 04-27-2018 11:40 AM

The question of how to develop a feel for the water is interesting. I'm not sure I have any new insights on how it happens, but I can report that it has started to happen for me through my work with the 2-beat kick.

Some of you may remember that this winter I have been adjusting the timing of my kick, kicking earlier than I used to. I now am kicking down (the "flick and hold" kick from Freestyle Mastery) at the moment that the same-side pulling arm is passing my head.

One result has been that I am starting my arm pull much sooner than I used to, with less glide up-front. In other words, my underwater arm is beginning to "grip" the water and move back into vertical-ish position even before my recovering arm enters the water. I feel like my pulling arm is locked into its position with elbows bent at near 90 degrees (maybe more like 100 degrees), and the entire arm is moved IN that locked position, from the lats. The bent arm GETS MOVED, it doesn't move itself. I agree the "ball under arm" drill Terry shows in Freestyle Mastery does a good job of giving you that feeling.

The key for me right now seems to be starting that slow movement down/back with the underwater arm early--just a moment after spearing. When I do this, the water feels "thick" (I feel that first with my hand as the wrist bends slightly to allow the hand to grip the water) and there is much more resistance for my forearm to push against. It also leads to a very smooth connection with the kick--which again happens just a tiny bit before the underwater arm passes my head during the pull.

There is much less glide to the stroke this way, and much less acceleration and deceleration in the stroke. It also results in a faster SR naturally, without rushing. It feels like power is being applied smoothly and continuously through the stroke cycle. It's a really good feeling, and lots of it depends on that feeling of "thick" water for the early catch. That "thick water" feel happens with my underwater arm still way out in front of my head, just a little behind the maximum extension of the spearing motion.

It seems to be much less demanding aerobically to swim this way--I often find myself going 4, 5, or even 6 strokes without a breath when cruising at a moderate pace (say 17:00 for 1000m open water).

So, for me, getting the timing of the kick has been the key for me. That led to an earlier catch and less glide, with a feeling of "thick" water to push against.

Long post--hope some of that is helpful, or at least interesting.

sclim 04-27-2018 11:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65251)

There is much less glide to the stroke this way, and much less acceleration and deceleration in the stroke. It also results in a faster SR naturally, without rushing. It feels like power is being applied smoothly and continuously through the stroke cycle. It's a really good feeling, and lots of it depends on that feeling of "thick" water for the early catch. That "thick water" feel happens with my underwater arm still way out in front of my head, just a little behind the maximum extension of the spearing motion.

It seems to be much less demanding aerobically to swim this way--I often find myself going 4, 5, or even 6 strokes without a breath when cruising at a moderate pace (say 17:00 for 1000m open water).

So, for me, getting the timing of the kick has been the key for me. That led to an earlier catch and less glide, with a feeling of "thick" water to push against.

Long post--hope some of that is helpful, or at least interesting.

I read all your points of what has changed in your stroke with great interest.

Regarding the bolded points, it is obvious that this stroke is using up less oxygen per minute. But you didn't specifically state that you are using less oxygen per distance covered. So, comparing before and after, did your SPL drop? (It would have to drop to compensate for the increased stroke rate if your speed stayed the same).

P.S. I can see that by eliminating some of the glide you have increased your efficiency by not requiring to speed up to a much higher speed than your average speed, which would be less efficient than a more steady-state-maintaining-velocity. This initially caused some confusion in my head, because part of my TI drill mentality was to glide more. But I see this now only as a practice to glide efficiently, i.e. more streamlined, in balance, etc., when you need to, but not necessarily to spend more time gliding -- in fact minimizing the glide time to a reasonable point is more efficient.

Tom Pamperin 04-28-2018 09:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65262)
So, comparing before and after, did your SPL drop? (It would have to drop to compensate for the increased stroke rate if your speed stayed the same).

Funny, but I'm not sure. I have been fortunate enough to take on a teaching job in the Marshall Islands, and have been living here and doing all my swimming in open water in the tropical Pacific. With coral reefs, colorful fish, sharks, and sea turtles--really, for a TI swimmer it's paradise. (That's why it took me awhile to get back to the forum). There's no such thing in my life as SPL anymore!

That's another important point: the magic I'm feeling in my stroke now has to be partly (largely) due to being in salt water--not only the extra buoyancy, but extra density as well. The water really is "thick" now. But I had been moving in that direction, and finding "thick" water to grip, even back in the U.S. in fresh water, so I don't think that salt water explains everything.

But the last time I swam in a pool, back in February, I don't think my SPL had dropped. The main change I was noticing was that my perceived exertion had gone WAY WAY down. I wasn't really faster, or using longer strokes, but as I mentioned before, I was suddenly going 4 or even 6 strokes between breaths, even during long repeats at 1:35/100m pace, which is pretty brisk for me. The implication seems to be that I ought to be able to get more speed eventually, but it was the effort that was affected most.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65262)
P.S. I can see that by eliminating some of the glide you have increased your efficiency by not requiring to speed up to a much higher speed than your average speed, which would be less efficient than a more steady-state-maintaining-velocity. This initially caused some confusion in my head, because part of my TI drill mentality was to glide more. But I see this now only as a practice to glide efficiently, i.e. more streamlined, in balance, etc., when you need to, but not necessarily to spend more time gliding -- in fact minimizing the glide time to a reasonable point is more efficient.

sclim,

I think that's a really good analysis. I am in the early stages of hypothesizing that I have been a chronic over-glider in my TI practice. Maybe not enough to be obvious to observers, but enough to fail to engage in the proper timing for really efficient propulsion.

Playing with my 2-beat kick timing has been the best development I've experienced since I learned to lead my recovery with my elbow.

Another hypothesis: it has taken me a LONG time to feel what I'm feeling now, and it has resulted in a faster SR as described in earlier posts. But I am not sure I would have ever gotten here if I had set faster SR (i.e. faster tempos) as my goal. The tempo is happening as a RESULT of what I am doing, not as something I consciously set out to do.

Tom Pamperin 04-28-2018 09:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65262)
So, comparing before and after, did your SPL drop? (It would have to drop to compensate for the increased stroke rate if your speed stayed the same).

Aha--another thought here.

Maybe what I am experiencing is that I am achieving the same SPL the RIGHT way now--so the speed and SPL are the same, but the perceived effort has gone down, just as Coach Stuart described. Lower SPL = lower perceived effort, which seems to be exactly what I'm describing.

I'd be very interested to hear from some TI coaches or other experienced swimmers about whether my theory of having been over-gliding (and now using a faster SR has cut that glide time, and reduced acceleration/deceleration) might explain my sudden improvement.

Mushroomfloat 04-29-2018 01:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65265)
Aha--another thought here.

Maybe what I am experiencing is that I am achieving the same SPL the RIGHT way now--so the speed and SPL are the same, but the perceived effort has gone down, just as Coach Stuart described. Lower SPL = lower perceived effort, which seems to be exactly what I'm describing.

I'd be very interested to hear from some TI coaches or other experienced swimmers about whether my theory of having been over-gliding (and now using a faster SR has cut that glide time, and reduced acceleration/deceleration) might explain my sudden improvement.

Yes, you are actually "crawling" now.

What you describe is known as "Meathook" freestyle

You enter closer and the hand "curls" over (with slightly spread fingers)
This pulls your arm down into a half circle shape (swiss ball under arm)

Rotation is snappy and instantaneous

A fast continuous propulsion

There is some glide but it happens as you are rocketing along (no dwell)

In another thread i mentioned the feeling of crawling over a huge sand dune with claws.

Mushroomfloat 04-29-2018 01:52 AM

Basically curling over and down to VW bumber but from directly from entry, the "glide" occurs on the initial curl over, the arm never pauses "in / curl / hook"

Tom Pamperin 04-29-2018 02:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65280)
Basically curling over and down to VW bumber but from directly from entry, the "glide" occurs on the initial curl over, the arm never pauses "in / curl / hook"

Yep, that sounds like what I'm feeling. Your crawling over the dune visualization didn't click for me, but we seem to be describing the same idea. Thanks!

Mushroomfloat 04-29-2018 12:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65283)
Yep, that sounds like what I'm feeling. Your crawling over the dune visualization didn't click for me, but we seem to be describing the same idea. Thanks!

A good demo here from Kara Lynn Joyce at 0:27

https://youtu.be/m771PnexCgI

CoachStuartMcDougal 04-29-2018 07:10 PM

Use whatever language that works for the swimmer or you. I use a different language coaching swimming to an accountant, a pro cyclist, an age group sprinter, etc. But I yield more to Coach Kredich's language describing the action of the low-side arm as 'vaulting [your body] over the low-side arm with the weight and momentum of the high-side arm'. High and low-side arms are equal partners in forward locomotion.

As for Kara Lynn Early Vertical Arm demo - this is an intentional movement that will tear up most swimmers' shoulders, all shoulder driven and mostly out of position of leverage. Just because an Olympian does a move or position in a particular way, doesn't mean that's what the rest of us should do too. And it's unknown if she has any shoulder issues and physical therapy or not.

Allow the low side arm to grip and vaulting shape to happen naturally with rotation, not manipulate its position or path (i.e. S curve) since it will probably be wrong and do naughty things to injury prone/weak shoulders.

I've posted Coach Dave's video several times, this presents another opportunity. The transition and the natural position (or early catch happens) at rotation - and is in a position of leverage using the core/lats and very friendly to the shoulders. Select this link: High Elbow Catch In Front Quadrant Stroke

Happy Laps and long live your shoulders! :-)

Stu

sclim 04-29-2018 10:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65265)
Aha--another thought here.

Maybe what I am experiencing is that I am achieving the same SPL the RIGHT way now--so the speed and SPL are the same, but the perceived effort has gone down, just as Coach Stuart described. Lower SPL = lower perceived effort, which seems to be exactly what I'm describing.

I'd be very interested to hear from some TI coaches or other experienced swimmers about whether my theory of having been over-gliding (and now using a faster SR has cut that glide time, and reduced acceleration/deceleration) might explain my sudden improvement.

The huge drop in your frequency of breathing got me thinking, especially prompted by Coach Mat's posts (Mediterra Swim) where he talks about the right amount of relaxation, and the right amount of tension. Efficiency in timing will get you a long way, but getting rid of excess and unnecessary tension if you have it will really increase your efficiency. I know I carry a lot of unnecessary tension, but I'm only thinking about it now as I type. Way better to think about it in the pool, so I can address it.

Tom Pamperin 04-30-2018 05:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65288)
The huge drop in your frequency of breathing got me thinking, especially prompted by Coach Mat's posts (Mediterra Swim) where he talks about the right amount of relaxation, and the right amount of tension. Efficiency in timing will get you a long way, but getting rid of excess and unnecessary tension if you have it will really increase your efficiency. I know I carry a lot of unnecessary tension, but I'm only thinking about it now as I type. Way better to think about it in the pool, so I can address it.

sclim,

I've been following Coach Mat too--his blog is great analysis about specific behaviors, really good teaching. You may be right that I'm getting better at balancing relaxation and tension, and learning to turn off muscles when not using them.

fooboo 04-30-2018 09:23 AM

Some of arguments here I see a bit different.
I open leading armpit and set head close to it. I rotate a lot, almost to the
flank. 2bk. Try to recover with leading elbow, openning armpit on that side
and reaching in front. Lower arm stands still and waits recovering arm to go
into the water. That arm goes in front, makes the body to rorate. Then I do
start to bend an elbow and not pull, but make an anchor, over which I jump,
with firm vertical forearm.
With early vertical forearm I always felt an ache. With late never. I don't pull.
For recovery it looks like I throw one side of the body, with kick help. Latter
comes an anchor, not at the same time. If at the same time, does not work
for me. First recovery, then anchor.
I disagree that anchor comes naturally. Not for me. Have to prepare and do
it intentionally.
Best regards all.

Mushroomfloat 04-30-2018 01:36 PM

i take my lock on at 90 to my spear
So its vertical beneath my shoulder pointing to the bottom of the pool
then when the spear enters i vault over it.

I just tried coach daves method and its much higher alongside the head? about eye level?
I can see you can hold further out and thus hold more water / DPS but it seems a bit at the extreme.
I like the 10 degree trick though, and he is correct about waiting for something to be rolling you off,
I kimd of let the lead arm drop and upper arm moves just outside the shoulder line then as recovery comes up to shoulder height, my lowside arm locks into catch directly beneath the shoulder (hand below shoulder, elbow is out to the side)
So shoulders are level at this point with arms 90 degrees opposite each other, then i fire the spear.

Mushroomfloat 04-30-2018 01:42 PM

^
actually i dont, im still extended doing 10degree trick when recovery arm comes up and it all happens at the same time, catch spear rotate
like some sort of crazy corkscrew lol

Mushroomfloat 04-30-2018 01:56 PM

Its bloody hard doing it in the kitchen, im out of the pool for a few more days as i've picked up some bug from the pool water on antibiotics, so i'm studying and doing dryland out of boredom.

CoachStuartMcDougal 04-30-2018 04:10 PM

When you recover, try this rehearsal "Skate to Catch". You can also do this vertical as dryland rehearsal too:
Skate to Catch

This is in the spirit and really inspired by Coach Dave's high elbow catch demo/video, allowing the catch to happen with rotation, or when rolling off one edge to the other, hinging at the elbow. This followed with freestyle closing hands or "fist drill" helps turn off the impulse to pull and start to feel pressure on the forearm as you gently press back upon the water.

Terry really liked this rehearsal/drill and wanted to incorporate into future content. Mandy and I use it frequently in lessons and workshops and really helps shape and feel the vaulting arm, creating thick water.

Stu

Tom Pamperin 04-30-2018 06:40 PM

Stuart,

that's really interesting--thanks. The arm seems to just fall into the catch. It also seems like the timing of the kick is the same as what Terry demonstrates in the Freestyle Mastery videos, with the kick firing as the non-spearing arm passes the head.

Next time I swim I'll try to see if this is similar to what I am doing.

Mushroomfloat 05-01-2018 05:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65297)
When you recover, try this rehearsal "Skate to Catch". You can also do this vertical as dryland rehearsal too:
Skate to Catch

This is in the spirit and really inspired by Coach Dave's high elbow catch demo/video, allowing the catch to happen with rotation, or when rolling off one edge to the other, hinging at the elbow. This followed with freestyle closing hands or "fist drill" helps turn off the impulse to pull and start to feel pressure on the forearm as you gently press back upon the water.

Terry really liked this rehearsal/drill and wanted to incorporate into future content. Mandy and I use it frequently in lessons and workshops and really helps shape and feel the vaulting arm, creating thick water.

Stu

Thanks! i have rehearsed it dryland and i could not work out how she was getting the catch above the head like that, then i realised the catch is driven into by the hip rotation?

2 questions if i may?

1. can i swim like that? ie would the elbow end up out of the water on the pull? or is it a drill designed to be done with slightly less rotation in whole stroke? looks like she is at about 60 degrees rotation there?

2. is that the recovery in reverse? driven up by the hips rotation?

many thanks, i shall practice it in water when i get back to the pool

CoachStuartMcDougal 05-01-2018 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65301)
Thanks! i have rehearsed it dryland and i could not work out how she was getting the catch above the head like that, then i realised the catch is driven into by the hip rotation?

2 questions if i may?

1. can i swim like that? ie would the elbow end up out of the water on the pull? or is it a drill designed to be done with slightly less rotation in whole stroke? looks like she is at about 60 degrees rotation there?

2. is that the recovery in reverse? driven up by the hips rotation?

many thanks, i shall practice it in water when i get back to the pool

Yes, catch driven by hip rotation. 1. Yes, and this is rehearsing the hinging of the low side arm to catch position. The (catching) arm must be fluid and soft, not tight. This helps remove the impulse to pull with the hand. Allow pelvis to trigger catch, not the other way around. 2. Excellent observation. Yes, follows a similar movement pattern and the recovery slicing in - in reverse, i.e. from catch return to skate is the recovery entry to forward extension.

When you have some mastery of this hip rotation and low-side arm hinging pattern, integrate into freestyle using the fist-drill, or with swimming with closed hands. Swimmer should be able to swim a length with either closed or open hands pressing upon the water (not pulling) and hit the same SPL. If SPL is +2 or more with closed hands, elbow in dropping puling with the fist, low-side/vaulting arm losing grip.

Developing the forearm feel of the pressure from the gentle press takes time, there are 10x the nerve endings in the hand than there are in the forearm. Reduce that feeling in hand and increase the feel on the forearm by just closing the hand. When you (re)open the hand, the movement pattern you developed remains the same. No bending wrist - it more like knuckles, wrist, elbow are fused in a straight line gaining the max surface area for vaulting.

Stu

Tom Pamperin 05-01-2018 08:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65310)
Developing the forearm feel of the pressure from the gentle press takes time, there are 10x the nerve endings in the hand than there are in the forearm. Reduce that feeling in hand and increase the feel on the forearm by just closing the hand. When you (re)open the hand, the movement pattern you developed remains the same. No bending wrist - it more like knuckles, wrist, elbow are fused in a straight line gaining the max surface area for vaulting.

I've found that fistgloves do even more to reduce sensation on your hands than simple closed hand swimming--no water contact to trigger sensation.

Stuart, you've got me re-thinking my timing to try and incorporate that hinging motion into my stroke. It seems closer to my old way of waiting until after rotation to start the catch.

I've also noticed I have noticeably more tendency to drop my elbow with my left arm--that's not tied to breathing as far as I can tell, since I breathe bilaterally, and it even happens when I'm not breathing at all. Something to pay attention to. I can correct it but it takes a lot of conscious focus, and the "hinging" seems to help.

Thanks again!

sclim 05-01-2018 10:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65310)
No bending wrist - it more like knuckles, wrist, elbow are fused in a straight line gaining the max surface area for vaulting.
Stu

Is this a strict rule, or only until the hingeing becomes natural?

I ask this because it seems to me, assuming the elbow hingeing action of the forearm-elbow-shoulder complex becomes natural and relaxed, preceding the catch with a wrist bend, then very precisely lessening the wrist-bend as the forearm starts to drop to vertical, eventually making a straight line with the forearm when the forearm reaches vertical, so as to keep the position of the hand vertical throughout the entire anchor phase would lessen overall drag, even if only very slightly.

CoachStuartMcDougal 05-02-2018 12:22 AM

Nothing is a strict rule, but I would say adding tension and bending wrist will tighten hand and shoulder which triggers the impulse to pull with the low-side hand is an error and should be avoided. Similar to neutral head/spine/hips, the swimmer should have a neutral hand/wrist/forearm not only at catch, but throughout the stroke cycle. Tone and fluid, not tense or tight. Adding or changing the tension in the wrist and/or bending the wrist at certain points in stroke cycle is overly complex and adding unnecessary movements that have far greater chance to cause problems than it could ever solve.

I generally characterize movement patterns into major and minor movements. The minor movements have all the complexities and subtleties difficult to control and the swimmer will inevitably get them wrong attempting to manipulate those movements. The major movements, i.e. hip drive, releasing arm wide, arm weight and momentum forward, holding your edge - when these are right, all minor movements and their complexities will happen more consequentially, i.e. "catch happens", path of low-side arm from fwd extension through release past hip, recovery entry, forward extension, etc.

Stu

CoachStuartMcDougal 05-02-2018 01:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65313)
I've found that fistgloves do even more to reduce sensation on your hands than simple closed hand swimming--no water contact to trigger sensation.

Stuart, you've got me re-thinking my timing to try and incorporate that hinging motion into my stroke. It seems closer to my old way of waiting until after rotation to start the catch.

Yes, most likely. It's easy to move the low side arm too soon, pulling through rotation. Use high side arm weight and momentum connected to pelvis to rotate body.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65313)
I've also noticed I have noticeably more tendency to drop my elbow with my left arm--that's not tied to breathing as far as I can tell, since I breathe bilaterally, and it even happens when I'm not breathing at all. Something to pay attention to. I can correct it but it takes a lot of conscious focus, and the "hinging" seems to help.

Yeah - it's a pattern to pull-rotate to breathe, elbow drops, grip is lost. Instead use high side arm weight and momentum to breathe - this is a very anti-terrestrial movement pattern :-) Resist the impulse to pull, it takes time - be patient with the process

Stu

sclim 05-02-2018 09:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 65319)
Resist the impulse to pull, it takes time - be patient with the process

Stu

Do I understand correctly that we should endeavour to "feel" for heavy water as early in the catch as possible (and maybe even leading up to the catch), but once we have felt and identified the heavy water sensation, we should continue to apply just enough pressure to maintain the heavy water sensation, but only to "anchor" and not pull.

If this is correct, I acknowledge it is difficult to exactly define what would "sufficient pressure", and what would be "pulling", but it is a distinction that can be worked on/worked towards in real time during the stroke. i.e., it is the conceptual idea that is important and that will eventually determine the difference in execution.

CoachStuartMcDougal 05-03-2018 01:10 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65327)
Do I understand correctly that we should endeavour to "feel" for heavy water as early in the catch as possible (and maybe even leading up to the catch), but once we have felt and identified the heavy water sensation, we should continue to apply just enough pressure to maintain the heavy water sensation, but only to "anchor" and not pull.

I prefer using "feeling or creating thick water" not heavy - and not in any particular phase, i.e. "catch", only as the arm presses back upon the water. Rather than "anchor" I choose "vault over low-side arm" (Boomer, Kredich). Analogous to the pole-vaulter - plants the pole and launches body, weight and its momentum over the pole. If that pole should break, all that valuable momentum is lost. Similar to the low-side arm or vaulting arm - if wrist bends, pulling on hand, elbow drops, valuable forward momentum is lost. This is the counter argument to those who believe the low side arm must always move or "windmill" to prevent or reduce deceleration.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65327)
If this is correct, I acknowledge it is difficult to exactly define what would "sufficient pressure", and what would be "pulling", but it is a distinction that can be worked on/worked towards in real time during the stroke. i.e., it is the conceptual idea that is important and that will eventually determine the difference in execution.

The level of pressure on forearm (low-side arm) will be different from swimmer to swimmer and their experience and developed awareness through repetition. Your feather light pressure could be my most firm pressure (imagine what my light pressure might be).

The word "Pull" has its own filters, at least in English. Pull implies grabbing with hand (bending wrist) and pulling (with hand), not holding or "vaulting" with the whole arm. This goes back to the freestyle's coined name of the "front crawl" which is language used to describe those movements based on our terrestrial and human perceptions at that time, and these perceptions still exists to this day.

Stu

fooboo 05-03-2018 05:43 AM

Eventually, after long time, I found the way to bend an elbow down in a
natural way, hold the water and use it as an "anchor". It all depends on
shoulder flexibility. In my case, shoulder should be high as an extension to
the body, me on an armpit and sealing head to that armpit. Rotating well
enough, some might say overrotating. From there I recover, enter the
water, start rotation, keeping lower arm still and high, in inner rotation.
When on counter flank, I naturally bend an elbow and hold the water.
Personaly, I feel quiet confident in keeping balance in this manner. Head
position helps.
Best regards all.


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