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-   -   Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9585)

Mushroomfloat 05-11-2018 09:57 AM

I think i can see Shelly opening up and closing in for entry here

https://youtu.be/rCga-UiIjSA

Mushroomfloat 05-11-2018 09:59 AM

i think if you stay "open" all the way you end up with a negative angle between the arms relative to the back plane
Closing up for entry / catch puts the arms in a positive angle

Mushroomfloat 05-11-2018 10:19 AM

Marc Evans back & shoulders seem to open & close here from 2:10
https://youtu.be/tPRs-CXf2ao

Tom Pamperin 05-12-2018 05:33 AM

You lost me with the "opening and closing" idea and "positive and negative angles"--I'm not really seeing that as a useful visualization for me personally. I guess I'm not sure what you mean, or why it's better than standard TI terms.

I did find the Shaw stuff potentially interesting. I've heard good things about the Alexander technique for finding proper relaxation and biomechanics.

Tom Pamperin 05-13-2018 12:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65413)
Tom, when you noticed

1) More hip rotation

what exactly do you mean? In the context of what CoachStuart was talking about did you mean that the rotating power seemed to come from a hip drive?

Yes--I felt the hips were driving some of the rotation. Although I'm sure I am doing some things right, and my stroke is working well, I've never been able to feel much awareness that the hips were a CAUSE of rotation before. As I put all my attention into maintaining the momentum of the high-side arm, and trying to feel the spearing motion pulling me forward, and connected to the pelvis--that's when I started to feel an awareness of moving my hips, and the rest of the body following along.

Partly this may have happened because I was also directing attention to my thighs, rather than the lower leg or foot, during my 2BK--feeling the thigh of the kicking leg brush the other thigh. This seemed to lead to a smaller, more streamlined kick, and one more closely connected to the hip.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65413)
And this momentum was transmitted to the outwardly swinging recovering arm and eventually to the whole forward recovery of the arm and mail-slot entry and spear.

Well, my kick timing is now later than it was. So the rotation and kick is happening AFTER the wrist of the spearing arm enters the water. By the time the hips are driving the body through the rotation, they are being aided by the weight of the spearing arm and the kick all at once. It seems to be three forces added together and applied with good timing and coordination--which of course makes it much more effective. The new piece for me is that I am now starting to be aware that the hips THEMSELVES are adding force to the rotation, and working in synergy with the spearing arm and the kick.

I think the momentum of the recovery comes not so much from the hips, but more from having a proper exit at the end of the pressing motion. The arm does not move back to press, then forward to recover. It's more of a circular path, involving big muscles in the back/shoulder (and relaxed arms)--the Shaw Technique video posted above does a pretty good job of showing that in dry-land rehearsal movements. That, I think, is what keeps the recovery momentum up, which is then transferred into the spearing motion on the next stroke, with no hitch or pause. For that, the two things that have helped me most are being sure to have a palm-up exit at the end of the stroke, and to begin moving the arm/shoulder forward into the recovery while the recovering hand is still in the water.

It may be that my hips have been doing this all along to some degree, and I am only now developing the capacity to be aware of it. That progression from unawareness to awareness seems to be a regular part of my progress. for example, I remember how difficult it was at first even to perceive the timing of my kick when I was learning the 2BK--it took all my attention. But by continual efforts to direct attention in that direction, my capacity to be aware without needing to try hard to be aware has developed a LONG way.

So, one important benefit of mindful practice is that by TRYING to be aware, we develop the CAPACITY needed for that awareness. Eventually that level of awareness becomes almost automatic, and it becomes fairly easy to make conscious adjustments to timing and movement paths.

I think I am barely beginning to develop the capacity to be aware of what my hips are actually doing.

sclim 05-13-2018 02:25 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65428)

Well, my kick timing is now later than it was. So the rotation and kick is happening AFTER the wrist of the spearing arm enters the water. By the time the hips are driving the body through the rotation, they are being aided by the weight of the spearing arm and the kick all at once.

If the kick is happening after the spearing wrist passes the water line, at which point the upper (spearing) side of the trunk must be just passing the neutral zero degree angle, or maybe just before that zero angle, then the initiation of the rotation is totally independent of the kick. If the kick is happening a little later, overlapping with the other arm catching then anchoring, then the added rotational component from the kick is only being added in the second half of the rotation, when the kicking side has already rotated to the high side. Obviously not too late to cause over-rotation, but still later than I would have expected.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65428)

It seems to be three forces added together and applied with good timing and coordination--which of course makes it much more effective. The new piece for me is that I am now starting to be aware that the hips THEMSELVES are adding force to the rotation, and working in synergy with the spearing arm and the kick.

(and by my analysis, kinda late in the rotation cycle)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65428)
I think the momentum of the recovery comes not so much from the hips, but more from having a proper exit at the end of the pressing motion. The arm does not move back to press, then forward to recover. It's more of a circular path, involving big muscles in the back/shoulder (and relaxed arms)--the Shaw Technique video posted above does a pretty good job of showing that in dry-land rehearsal movements. That, I think, is what keeps the recovery momentum up, which is then transferred into the spearing motion on the next stroke, with no hitch or pause. For that, the two things that have helped me most are being sure to have a palm-up exit at the end of the stroke, and to begin moving the arm/shoulder forward into the recovery while the recovering hand is still in the water.

This sounds a little like it could be imitated by visualizing the recovery a little like a whipping action, like snapping the handle of a whip at the shoulder whiie the hand is still in the water having the "ripple" of the whip-snap travel down to the finger tips to whip the fingertips out of the water and immediately laterally in their recovery arc. Does that fit in with what you think you are doing?

borate 05-13-2018 02:44 AM

Analysis

Shinji

Tom Pamperin 05-13-2018 08:19 AM

1 Attachment(s)
I'm glad much of my thinking and awareness during practice doesn't have to be put into words--these discussions get complicated! So a disclaimer:the analysis I am offering is based on memory of what it felt like while swimming. I am certainly NOT trying to think about all of this stuff at once while swimming. It's only by thinking about it afterwards that I get into these complicated descriptions--which I find interesting and helpful in clarifying my own perceptions. So:

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65429)
If the kick is happening after the spearing wrist passes the water line, at which point the upper (spearing) side of the trunk must be just passing the neutral zero degree angle, or maybe just before that zero angle, then the initiation of the rotation is totally independent of the kick.

I think we have a disagreement here about what is happening with the timing of rotation, so I'll clarify what I think is happening in my own stroke when I feel like I'm getting things right.

What I feel is that no rotation happens at all until the spearing arm (let's say a left-side arm, as in the attached photo of Terry) is wrist-deep. Up until that point, the body remains solidly in right-side skate position. You can see that in Terry's demo from Freestyle Mastery (photo attached here). You can also see it pretty well at 0:49 in THIS DEMO VIDEO, although there he is spearing with the right arm while in left-side skate.

Then, continuing from 0:49 in the video link above, as the right arm continues to push toward full extension, AND the left arm is passing the shoulder and beginning the propulsive pressing motion, AND the left leg is kicking down--during that window, all of the rotation happens. There is no exact "moment" of rotation, because it takes time for all of these movements (spear, kick, press, rotation) to be completed, but they all happen simultaneously as far as I can feel and see in Terry's videos. The rotation itself is MUCH later in the stroke cycle than I had been doing before, but I think that unified late timing is the key to a really solid connection through core and hips and kick and spear.

Do you see something different when you look at those videos, sclim? It seems pretty clear to me (though that may be my bias creeping in and seeing what I expect to see). Watch it at .25 speed on Youtube and tell me what you think.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65429)
This sounds a little like it could be imitated by visualizing the recovery a little like a whipping action, like snapping the handle of a whip at the shoulder whiie the hand is still in the water having the "ripple" of the whip-snap travel down to the finger tips to whip the fingertips out of the water and immediately laterally in their recovery arc. Does that fit in with what you think you are doing?

I haven't used a whip visualization--for me, the transition from pressing motion to recovery is more like the feeling you get when you stand up and quickly move your arm (straight but relaxed) in a big circle (the kind of quick big circling motion you see people do as a warm-up sometimes), where momentum helps the whole arm move quickly while it's still very relaxed, and you can feel the centrifugal force pulling the blood to your hands and fingertips.

(Who knew I was smart enough to do all this complicated stuff every time I swim? :)

Tom Pamperin 05-13-2018 08:33 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by borate (Post 65430)
Analysis

Shinji

Shinji also appears to remain solidly in skate position with no rotation until the wrist of the spearing arm is in the water. You can see it at 1:07 where he is spearing with the left arm while in right-side skate.

Mushroomfloat 05-13-2018 11:07 AM

Check this clip of shinji with the better timing

https://youtu.be/Henk1lF74QY


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