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-   -   Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9585)

sclim 05-16-2018 08:57 PM

Tom:

Just to address a little detail on the low (catching) side -- now that we have established that the mail-slot entry up to the wrist-level or so is accomplished prior to any rotation downward of the high shoulder.

I believe you had mentioned that in your stroke experimentation you had started to initiate the low side catch earlier, and that the whole sequence schedule had been moved ahead in time compared to how you had been doing it before, so that it started to look more like a kayak pattern (even if the anchoring arm didn't actually reach the 180 degree separation angle, the separation angle did increase compared to your old style).

Is it possible not to change this low-side "advancement" and yet still do the high-side mail-slot entry with delayed rotation of the high side? What I'm thinking of is the mantra of the patient lead hand (which at this point is the low side), and not acting on the impulse to initiate the catch until the mail-slotting fingertips have passed the mid-forearm of the patient lead hand. I'm thinking that perhaps this might prolong the free glide for a slightly longer distance (and thus achieve a longer stroke length).

I'm also not certain of what happens exactly when one is feeling for thick water. I had thought that perhaps one can feel the thick water without necessarily catching it. Perhaps my imagination is too fanciful, but during my spear, if I really concentrate, I think I can "feel" the thickness of water with my fingers and maybe with my palm, even though my spear is still going forward and not yet catching, and that this feel of thickness of water is a useful setup prior to actual initiation of the catch and anchor. Or am I imagining things, and to "feel thickness" is synonymous with some change in finger and hand movement that is at least part of initiation of catching?

Mushroomfloat 05-16-2018 10:54 PM

Nobody is going to anchor and vault over anything staying up on edge until their highside wrist is in the water.

It's just nuggetry to think that momemtum from the high side arm can be harnessed this way.

Mushroomfloat 05-16-2018 11:03 PM

It's a corkscrew transition.

Your edge starts changing with a nudge down of the highside hip to engage a hook under the water
It goes from say 45deg hip to 30deg hip spear enters water and hip drives on down and through.

You wont get any fancy high elbow recovery with this it's a high swinger start to a low over water entry with a small bend in the elbow.

Mushroomfloat 05-16-2018 11:12 PM

Here is a coach
https://youtu.be/3K1vfana92c

Mushroomfloat 05-16-2018 11:20 PM

The highside arm is connected to the pelvis it has to go with it

Mushroomfloat 05-17-2018 01:19 AM

As a side note:

The key to Sharkfin & sailboat drills is:

45 deg hip rotation sharkfin

transitioning to....

30 deg hip rotation sailboat

you take your catch on the transition

Mushroomfloat 05-17-2018 01:22 AM

"opening & closing"

"Tigers & Eagles"

"The shaw method"

Tom Pamperin 05-17-2018 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65486)
I believe you had mentioned that in your stroke experimentation you had started to initiate the low side catch earlier, and that the whole sequence schedule had been moved ahead in time compared to how you had been doing it before, so that it started to look more like a kayak pattern (even if the anchoring arm didn't actually reach the 180 degree separation angle, the separation angle did increase compared to your old style).

Yes, that's what I've been doing--beginning the catch earlier so that there is much less overlap between arms. It's still front quadrant timing, but the underwater arm is already getting near to leaving the front quadrant as the spearing arm reaches full extension. That leads to a naturally higher SR and tempo without really trying or struggling to be faster.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65486)
Is it possible not to change this low-side "advancement" and yet still do the high-side mail-slot entry with delayed rotation of the high side? What I'm thinking of is the mantra of the patient lead hand (which at this point is the low side), and not acting on the impulse to initiate the catch until the mail-slotting fingertips have passed the mid-forearm of the patient lead hand. I'm thinking that perhaps this might prolong the free glide for a slightly longer distance (and thus achieve a longer stroke length).

Yes, I think that's perfectly possible. Now that I have been focusing so much on timing, I'm starting to believe that adjusting the amount of overlap between arms (i.e. adjusting the extent of the front quadrant timing) is an effective way to manipulate SPL and SR. I think it will work just as you say, and then it's a matter of choosing the right amount of delay in the catch to work at the speed and distance you are swimming. Longer stroke = more glide and lower SPL, but also more acceleration and deceleration. I'm enjoying the less glide-ish stroke right now, feels like much more continuous propulsion. But yesterday I took it easy and allowed a later catch and more glide--that works, too.

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65486)
I'm also not certain of what happens exactly when one is feeling for thick water. I had thought that perhaps one can feel the thick water without necessarily catching it. Perhaps my imagination is too fanciful, but during my spear, if I really concentrate, I think I can "feel" the thickness of water with my fingers and maybe with my palm, even though my spear is still going forward and not yet catching, and that this feel of thickness of water is a useful setup prior to actual initiation of the catch and anchor. Or am I imagining things, and to "feel thickness" is synonymous with some change in finger and hand movement that is at least part of initiation of catching?

I typically don't try to feel thick water during the spearing motion, but only afterward, as the arm drifts slowly down and back (no pressure) into the catch. One thing that seems to help me perceive thick water is that as soon as my arm enters, I try to have my fingertips pointing down toward the bottom of the pool (another idea I got from Terry's Youtube videos). That means a slight relaxation/arc in the wrist. I also slightly squeeze my hand and fingers (SLIGHTLY), as if I am gently grabbing onto a large grapefruit. That all happens during the arm drifting down and back into the catch. Then I have a good grip by the time the spear/kick/rotation/pressing motion all happens.

But by all means, I think it's exactly the right thing to direct awareness to how, exactly, the water feels on your hands/arms/skin. Terry used to talk about "separating the water molecules" on hand entry--that was his focal point to avoid splashing. I think he might have meant an intense focus on the sensations of his fingers contacting the water, kind of like what you described above. I think if you keep trying to feel or even imagine those sensations, you will be developing the capacity to be aware and feel the thick water.

It'd be interesting to hear what other experienced swimmers and coaches think about all this.

Tom Pamperin 05-17-2018 06:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65487)
Nobody is going to anchor and vault over anything staying up on edge until their highside wrist is in the water.

It's just nuggetry to think that momemtum from the high side arm can be harnessed this way.

So are Shinji and Terry doing it wrong?

Tom Pamperin 05-17-2018 06:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65489)

Yes, Coach Mandy--but the clip you showed doesn't have anything to do with the question of the timing of the body rotation. It's all about how to swing the elbow wide on recovery.

You can swing your elbow wide on recovery and still use Terry and Shinji's timing. Did I miss why you posted this clip? Thanks!


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