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-   -   Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9585)

Tom Pamperin 05-14-2018 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fooboo (Post 65459)
Contrary leg kicks to help recovery.

fooboo,

I don't understand this. The kick actually happens after the recovery, and during the spearing motion (at least in Terry and Shinji's videos)--so how can it help recovery? The recovery has already happened. What are you seeing differently?

Mainly, I think, the kick is rotational--as you kick the leg down, that same hip is pushed upward (Newton's Law). That rotates the hips and legs. I'm not seeing a direct connection to the recovery motion.

sclim 05-14-2018 04:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65433)
Do you see something different when you look at those videos, sclim? It seems pretty clear to me (though that may be my bias creeping in and seeing what I expect to see). Watch it at .25 speed on Youtube and tell me what you think.

No, I had forgotten (in my visual memory) the specifics of sequences seen in the video, and was following the sequence in my mind as you described your stroke, and had, for some loose-brained reason, visualized (wrongly) that when the finger-tips did the mail slot entry, it meant that (to reach the water) the mail-slotting high side required to have rotated down to get to the waterline by the time the finger-tip entry happened.

Your description actually explains it very well:

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65433)
What I feel is that no rotation happens at all until the spearing arm (let's say a left-side arm, as in the attached photo of Terry) is wrist-deep. Up until that point, the body remains solidly in right-side skate position.

Actually the reference back to the Shinji video was very useful -- the slo-mo breakdown of the various micro components of the stroke was instructive, much more so than when I had seen it before, maybe, but had not learned the other balance and other details to make the information useful.

And I hadn't realized that the Boomer demo video was a completely different style, and rhythm, and only a drill anyway, to demonstrate a different point.

fooboo 05-15-2018 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65460)
I don't understand this. The kick actually happens after the recovery, and during the spearing motion (at least in Terry and Shinji's videos)--so how can it help recovery? The recovery has already happened. What are you seeing differently?

It was so obvious to me, I never gave it second taught.
I'm not in a pool, so have to rethink the issue. On left flank, right arm starts
to recover. When starting to break the water surface, left leg kicks from the
hip. To me it is all the same step. I will pay attention very first time I come to
the pool.
Regarding videos, seems I start to differ from them. When I find something,
that suits me better, I follow. Like head sealed to armpit, high leading arm...
Best regards.

Tom Pamperin 05-15-2018 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fooboo (Post 65465)
It was so obvious to me, I never gave it second taught.
I'm not in a pool, so have to rethink the issue. On left flank, right arm starts
to recover. When starting to break the water surface, left leg kicks from the
hip. To me it is all the same step. I will pay attention very first time I come to
the pool.
Regarding videos, seems I start to differ from them. When I find something,
that suits me better, I follow. Like head sealed to armpit, high leading arm...
Best regards.

Ah, that makes sense. These days I think of my kick connected to my underwater arm--right leg kicks as right arm begins pressing motion.

You are choosing to feel the kicking leg connected to the spearing arm--the right leg kicks as left arm spears.

I may try connecting that way again and see how it feels. That is how I started when I was learning the 2BK, but I now feel a much stronger connection between same-side arm and kicking leg. It may be time to re-visit my perceptions and see what happens.

In other words, I think we are saying the same thing in different ways.

sclim 05-15-2018 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65433)

What I feel is that no rotation happens at all until the spearing arm (let's say a left-side arm, as in the attached photo of Terry) is wrist-deep.

Yesss!

I finally did it.

The spearing hand does the finger-tip mail-slot entry, while the same side shoulder is held back somewhat, still on high side.

I'm not sure exactly how I held back the high side, maybe it was merely letting the hand entry "get ahead" a little. But it wasn't enough to cause stalling. Just enough of a slowing so the rotation got held back a little, then as the spearing arm got deeper, the (top-side) hip drive kicked in, and other side delayed kick finally happened as the catch became a hold and rotation all happened at once.

The slight holding back of the rotation had a little of a sensation of pulling back on a slingshot then letting go. Very subtle, but it had the net effect of the trunk tending to spend more time on the high side delaying a bit, then sort of speeding through the rotation through the middle (zero degrees) portion to get to the other high side quickly. If this "flat" middle position is the phase of greatest drag, then I can see that this strategy would generate the least total drag summation throughout out all the time increments of the cycle. Of course, there are likely to be other benefits, stretching the core oblique rotator muscles before releasing like a sling-shot probably enhances the efficiency of the core rotation mechanism.

It's still early days, so I have yet to get used to the new rhythm and balance and all.

Tom Pamperin 05-16-2018 06:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 65473)
Yesss!

I finally did it.

Ha! I know that feeling from my own TI practice--something suddenly clicks and is working differently--better--than before. Working with this timing has certainly changed the way I swim for the better. Congrats, sclim, and good luck as you continue your explorations.

Tom Pamperin 05-16-2018 06:20 AM

Lately I've been watching a bunch of Terry's videos on Youtube--talks he gave at various events, etc. One of the things that caught my attention was his description of always having a very specific point in space where he aims his spearing motion--some of the videos showed this as an X and Y axis coordinate system. At one point, Terry mentioned that when he speared, he always wanted his spearing hand to drive right through the target point--all the way through it, not just to it.

I swam for about an hour continuous open water last night with that thought in mind, and found it really helpful to keep my attention on the high side arm and avoid any urge to pull with the low arm. Spearing THROUGH the target point.

All the other arm has to do is make a good shape and hold the shape (another thing I got from the videos), no pulling.

I'll keep on with this for a while--a very simple specific focus that seems to do a lot of important stuff almost automatically.

Another reminder that I shouldn't have needed: there is a HUGE goldmine of swimming wisdom in all of the TI materials on Youtube, even the older stuff (I think the video where I found this was from 2011).

Mushroomfloat 05-16-2018 01:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65476)
Lately I've been watching a bunch of Terry's videos on Youtube--talks he gave at various events, etc. One of the things that caught my attention was his description of always having a very specific point in space where he aims his spearing motion--some of the videos showed this as an X and Y axis coordinate system. At one point, Terry mentioned that when he speared, he always wanted his spearing hand to drive right through the target point--all the way through it, not just to it.

I swam for about an hour continuous open water last night with that thought in mind, and found it really helpful to keep my attention on the high side arm and avoid any urge to pull with the low arm. Spearing THROUGH the target point.

All the other arm has to do is make a good shape and hold the shape (another thing I got from the videos), no pulling.

I'll keep on with this for a while--a very simple specific focus that seems to do a lot of important stuff almost automatically.

Another reminder that I shouldn't have needed: there is a HUGE goldmine of swimming wisdom in all of the TI materials on Youtube, even the older stuff (I think the video where I found this was from 2011).

Put some weight on it as it heads towards the XY point
(it'll pull you through rotation and lock you up onto an edge

Mushroomfloat 05-16-2018 01:21 PM

Pinkie down.

Glide the rail whilst the high side arm comes over

Should be about 45 deg shoulder rotation / 30 deg hip rotation

Water slipping out from under the highside hip

sclim 05-16-2018 08:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65476)
At one point, Terry mentioned that when he speared, he always wanted his spearing hand to drive right through the target point--all the way through it, not just to it.

Apart from the fact that this focus points helps to distract from and prevent the urge to pull on the catching side (which you have alluded to), the focus point is a nice encapsulation of 2 things -- an exquisitely precise target to keep in mind during spearing and even after that -- as well as an easily achieved visualization that really helps to keep on reaching with a long stretch, rather than merely thinking of "reaching long"


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