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-   -   Should Early VERTICAL be Early PERPENDICULAR Forearm? (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9585)

Mushroomfloat 05-13-2018 11:10 AM

By the way i think you do start heading over to the entry side towards the end of the recovery, if you dont your shoulders wont like it unless your skating at near 90 ddgrees

bujanglokal 05-13-2018 11:40 AM

What is the point of kicking?
(1) To push more the body forward when we are at the beginning of our most streamlined position (the skate). If this is the case then kicking when hand start the skate position after entering water should be the most effective.
or
(2) to aid the rotation, ultimately giving more oomph to the hip rotation and the pressing hand , for this kicking earlier make more sense.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't know which one is better :-).

Tom Pamperin 05-13-2018 12:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65435)
Check this clip of shinji with the better timing

https://youtu.be/Henk1lF74QY

I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me in this post (or maybe neither), but here's a couple of questions/observations:

1. What makes this timing "better?" The first 0:21 seems like maybe rotation is starting a little earlier than I describe, but after that, it matches pretty well with what I described seeing in the other videos on this thread.

2. At 0:22, and again at 0:38, and at 0:40, and again at 0:42, and 0:47, he is spearing with the right arm while still pretty much in left-side skate. At 0:39 and 0:41, and 0:49, he is spearing with left arm while in right-side skate. Watch it at .25 speed and this becomes easier to see. It seems to be pretty consistent.

3. The timing on when the underwater arm starts to drift down and back after spearing is pretty much as I have been describing--the underwater arm is set in the catch and ready to begin the pressing movement by the time the spearing arm is entering the water. This is still front quadrant timing, but there is not MUCH overlap where both hands are in front of the head. It is VERY far away from catch-up timing.

4. His kick is happening pretty much as I described, when the pressing arm passes the shoulder. I do notice his kick begins before the spearing arm reaches full extension.

Tom Pamperin 05-13-2018 12:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bujanglokal (Post 65437)
What is the point of kicking?
(1) To push more the body forward when we are at the beginning of our most streamlined position (the skate). If this is the case then kicking when hand start the skate position after entering water should be the most effective.
or
(2) to aid the rotation, ultimately giving more oomph to the hip rotation and the pressing hand , for this kicking earlier make more sense.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't know which one is better :-).

If the kick is to aid rotation of the lower body (which I think is the main function), then it has to happen as the rotation happens, at the same time. It's a simple Newton's Law application. As the right leg kicks down, the right hip is pushed UP, rotating the body onto the left side (left hip down, right hip up).

So, kicking happens at the same time as rotation, because the kick helps CAUSE the rotation. If the rotation happens late (as I am theorizing in this discussion, and as I see in the video demos from Terry and Shinji), then the kick has to happen late as well. The kick and rotation are two sides of the same coin. You can't really have one without the other.

Does anyone see something different in the videos? To me, the timing looks pretty clear. It also confirms what I am feeling in my own stroke.

Tom Pamperin 05-13-2018 12:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65436)
By the way i think you do start heading over to the entry side towards the end of the recovery, if you dont your shoulders wont like it unless your skating at near 90 ddgrees

But there are many many moments in the demo videos of Terry and Shinji that show very little rotation until the spearing arm is wrist-deep. How do you explain that?

That's an honest question, by the way, not a challenge. It's all too easy to see only the evidence that supports my own argument, I know, and I may well be missing something.

Mushroomfloat 05-13-2018 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65438)
I'm not sure if you are agreeing or disagreeing with me in this post (or maybe neither), but here's a couple of questions/observations:

1. What makes this timing "better?" The first 0:21 seems like maybe rotation is starting a little earlier than I describe, but after that, it matches pretty well with what I described seeing in the other videos on this thread.

2. At 0:22, and again at 0:38, and at 0:40, and again at 0:42, and 0:47, he is spearing with the right arm while still pretty much in left-side skate. At 0:39 and 0:41, and 0:49, he is spearing with left arm while in right-side skate. Watch it at .25 speed and this becomes easier to see. It seems to be pretty consistent.

3. The timing on when the underwater arm starts to drift down and back after spearing is pretty much as I have been describing--the underwater arm is set in the catch and ready to begin the pressing movement by the time the spearing arm is entering the water. This is still front quadrant timing, but there is not MUCH overlap where both hands are in front of the head. It is VERY far away from catch-up timing.

4. His kick is happening pretty much as I described, when the pressing arm passes the shoulder. I do notice his kick begins before the spearing arm reaches full extension.

Yes i meant better timing as in more vaulting stroke timing than extreme catch up

Mushroomfloat 05-13-2018 01:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Pamperin (Post 65440)
But there are many many moments in the demo videos of Terry and Shinji that show very little rotation until the spearing arm is wrist-deep. How do you explain that?

That's an honest question, by the way, not a challenge. It's all too easy to see only the evidence that supports my own argument, I know, and I may well be missing something.

Ive watched many swimmers and i see a slight roll towards the entering arm at the end of recovery.
if you look at the shinji video i posted his hips go almost flat at entry they dont stay up on edge more a transition towards the about to enter arm

Mushroomfloat 05-13-2018 01:47 PM

Swimming stroke is a rolling twisting 3 dimentional thing

There are rolls towards and rolls away from with rises and falls throughout the stroke cycle

Otherwise it is an edge swapping skate drill no?

Tom Pamperin 05-13-2018 02:17 PM

1 Attachment(s)
Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 65442)
if you look at the shinji video i posted his hips go almost flat at entry they dont stay up on edge more a transition towards the about to enter arm

I disagree; that is not what I see in the video. If there is hip (or upper body) rotation happening before the spearing arm is wrist-deep, it is very very minimal.

Look at 1:32, for example (photo is attached). Here Shinji is spearing with his right arm, and his hips have not begun to rotate. His right hip is still high, near the surface, even as his right wrist is in the water. His hips are definitely NOT "almost flat at entry" as you posted. And there are many moments like this in the video--the timing seems consistent.

Mushroomfloat 05-13-2018 03:36 PM

Whats happening here then Tom........ v

https://youtu.be/e24vIP-3b3w


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