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-   -   Holding a ball of water molecule (catch) and shoulder strain (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9641)

bujanglokal 07-08-2018 05:21 PM

Holding a ball of water molecule (catch) and shoulder strain
 
How to minimize shoulder strain when trying to hold the ball of water molecule evf catch?
Should you feel the strain or it is due to doing it wrong?

I've also tried to do it the more simple way as instructed in one of coach DShen's youtube, by just rolling the thumb (and palm) downward, hence it will automatically roll the elbow outward, but I'm not sure it's effective, so I want to do the hold the ball things properly.

Thanks

Thanks

Mushroomfloat 07-08-2018 05:29 PM

Take it with the counter rotation
ie extend & glide and tip you fingers down slighty and wait until you start rolling to the other side to make the high elbow catch
you have to wait until something is rolling you off ie recovery arm / counter rotation

trying to swan arm it on the extention is asking for shoulder strain

no you shouldnt be coming away from swimming in pain, if you are your tecnique is wrong as you must very quickly analyse where

Mushroomfloat 07-08-2018 05:49 PM

Here:

https://youtu.be/tDmQiHQ8mW8

CoachDavidShen 07-08-2018 07:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by bujanglokal (Post 65977)
How to minimize shoulder strain when trying to hold the ball of water molecule evf catch?
Should you feel the strain or it is due to doing it wrong?

I've also tried to do it the more simple way as instructed in one of coach DShen's youtube, by just rolling the thumb (and palm) downward, hence it will automatically roll the elbow outward, but I'm not sure it's effective, so I want to do the hold the ball things properly.

Thanks

Thanks

Hey CoachDShen here - thanks for watching my video!

Can you tell me when in the stroke you are forming the catch? The earlier you form the catch prior to body rotation to the other side, the higher the pressure will be on the shoulder joint.

As mushroomfloat mentions with Coach Dave Cameron's video, we have found that forming a true EVF catch is better during the switch and as you are spearing, and rotating to the other side. It puts your shoulder in a more optimal position for creating an EVF shape without putting so much stress on the shoulder.

Having said the above, good shoulder mobility and stability is essential for doing things like the EVF. If you are limited in either, then note that EVF isn't really necessary for swimming, nor swimming pretty fast. EVF is really about optimizing swimming for that last bit of speed after you've maxed out everything else. I wouldn't worry about it so much if you're still in the learning stages.

So forming a good catch isn't necessarily about true EVF - are you feeling pressure even forming a non-true EVF catch?

bujanglokal 07-08-2018 10:12 PM

Thanks for the reply mushroomfloat and coach DShen.

Most probably I've tried to form the catch too early as I'm still has to think and 'prepare' to form it. I will try to postpone it a little bit and timed it with the spearing/body roll.

Mushroomfloat 07-09-2018 01:33 AM

if you can feel the weight of the recovery arm as it comes over on the underwater spearing arm you can use it to time your catch.

borate 07-09-2018 02:33 AM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OZXX9XHx0mM

fooboo 07-10-2018 07:10 AM

Early Vertical Forarm is opposite to Total Immersion very idea. Quite popular
among elite swimmers, but if you're not, you loose nothing.
One has to do an anchor, or catch or vertical forearm, sooner or later.
I do it later. In previous life, with EVF, I had shoulder pain. Nowadays,
I anchor when I already rotated, no stress on shoulder included. Yep,
that Cameron video shows everything.
Good thing is to anchor with whole body, not just arm. It takes time to
develop.
Best regards.

liolio 07-10-2018 04:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by fooboo (Post 65993)
Early Vertical Forarm is opposite to Total Immersion very idea. Quite popular
among elite swimmers, but if you're not, you loose nothing.
One has to do an anchor, or catch or vertical forearm, sooner or later.
I do it later. In previous life, with EVF, I had shoulder pain. Nowadays,
I anchor when I already rotated, no stress on shoulder included. Yep,
that Cameron video shows everything.
Good thing is to anchor with whole body, not just arm. It takes time to
develop.
Best regards.

Something is pretty clear to me EVF means a lot of humerus internal rotation. I'm trying to move away from that temptation => as much as possible arm external rotation and forearm rotation it is a weird reference but the cinetic chain is really "nazi" like ...

Mushroomfloat 07-10-2018 06:18 PM

yes it is internal roation and it comes down to what you can stand,
for a safer relaxed swim taking the catch with the counter rotation is less stressfull on the shoulder.

EVF can be done and i have purposely extended into a glide ending in internal rotation to set the EVF and it was fast! but after a few swims and doing the same on breaststroke i could feel that it wasnt something i wanted to continue doing.

Dave Camerons "10 degree trick" works well and minimises internal rotation by just a small adduction / thumb pitch down 10 degrees.

Mushroomfloat 07-10-2018 06:24 PM

You can internally rotate both recovery and spear and stay like this throughout the stroke cycles ie entering thumbs down
making 2 internally rotated triangles one above and one below the water
it was fast when i tried it for while but not that comfortable.

Shelia Taormina swims like this

Mushroomfloat 07-10-2018 06:26 PM

here:
https://youtu.be/a7p0esInFs0

daveblt 07-11-2018 02:27 AM

I don't really understand what the purpose of this drill is and how it can benefit your swimming.They are entering too narrow and with the thumbs slightly down. This would serve no purpose to me . Enter in front of the shoulder or slightly outside and enter with the pinky pitched down at least just slightly.

Dave

Mushroomfloat 07-11-2018 12:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveblt (Post 66006)
I don't really understand what the purpose of this drill is and how it can benefit your swimming.They are entering too narrow and with the thumbs slightly down. This would serve no purpose to me . Enter in front of the shoulder or slightly outside and enter with the pinky pitched down at least just slightly.

Dave

Its Shelia Toarmina's style, she seems to enter and stay internally rotated for the catch what h her underwater arm here:
https://youtu.be/NXCw9t6bV8c

liolio 07-11-2018 01:50 PM

May be you should try doing the "steam machine" type of motion with your shoulder and work on how your arm movements blend into that pattern.
The catch start with you arm straight and it may be better for that to happen when you scapula is in a more neutral position.
I'm not sure if it is clear but what I say is to try to have arm lagging the "steam machine" motion of the shoulder or the shoulder being ahead of the arm motion.

daveblt 07-11-2018 08:45 PM

I have learned to NOT do that type of recovery,and I don't think TI would recommend this recovery ? I think this would eventually cause shoulder impingement and with the weight of the arm out of the water cause balance issues .Maybe for her it works though .

Dave

liolio 07-11-2018 09:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by daveblt (Post 66010)
I have learned to NOT do that type of recovery,and I don't think TI would recommend this recovery ? I think this would eventually cause shoulder impingement and with the weight of the arm out of the water cause balance issues .Maybe for her it works though .

Dave

TI looking at Terry when he swam did not but I guess some leel is ok for a healthy person wth otherwise healthy posture, etc. more and more our daily life promote position where the elbow pops out, the forearm is under pronated (max pronation is not reachable by many people), rounded shoulders; etc
=> many issues shoulder impingement but also thoracic syndroms (from the scalene to the pectoralis minor to various wrist nerves and vascular issues).
It is tempting to engage the big powerful muscles that rotates the humerus and moves the arm closer to the front of the torso when nowadays weaker back muscles is the basic (I got told by a teacher that it is safe to assume that most people lower trapezius are way to weak).

It is quite complicate but if you don't rely on internal rotation you have to move you scapula around and it is a pretty solid articulation (no real joint /serratus). As the scapula moves and you extend your arm and fore arm you hae to use the long head triceps more extensively (you keep you elbow closer to your body). It is significantly different kinetic chain, you have to feel it for your self I'm not sure if trained properly it is less efficient actually I would think Phelps does that (though he engage internal rotator for extra juice or not pull too deep).

sclim 07-12-2018 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by liolio (Post 66011)
TI looking at Terry when he swam did not but I guess some leel is ok for a healthy person wth otherwise healthy posture, etc. more and more our daily life promote position where the elbow pops out, the forearm is under pronated (max pronation is not reachable by many people), rounded shoulders; etc
=> many issues shoulder impingement but also thoracic syndroms (from the scalene to the pectoralis minor to various wrist nerves and vascular issues).
It is tempting to engage the big powerful muscles that rotates the humerus and moves the arm closer to the front of the torso when nowadays weaker back muscles is the basic (I got told by a teacher that it is safe to assume that most people lower trapezius are way to weak).

It is quite complicate but if you don't rely on internal rotation you have to move you scapula around and it is a pretty solid articulation (no real joint /serratus). As the scapula moves and you extend your arm and fore arm you hae to use the long head triceps more extensively (you keep you elbow closer to your body). It is significantly different kinetic chain, you have to feel it for your self I'm not sure if trained properly it is less efficient actually I would think Phelps does that (though he engage internal rotator for extra juice or not pull too deep).

I stepped slowly through your description, and from what I understand, you are saying that you can get the similar effect of arm pronation (internal rotation of the humerus on the glenoid fossa, i.e. the "joint" of the scapula) by rotating the whole scapula and sliding it up the posterior rib cage as you reach your mail-slot spearing arm along the line of the swimming direction, thus avoiding potential shoulder rotation repetitive strain injury.

This is a whole new idea for me, and I have never heard of it before. As you say, it involves a whole new kinetic chain. I would have no idea where and how to start training for this motion. Is there any existing literature out there that you know of that deals with this?

liolio 07-12-2018 10:03 AM

I may post a longer answer later but pronation/supination is about that foream only. It is the complex movement of the radius around the (not completely) still ulna it also involves the wrist.

Sucky ref but try the Nazi salute, max external rotation of the humerus and in the opposite direction max pronation of the forearm. You should feel tension. On the outer side of the forearm up into the pinky. Try keeping the scapula and try to reach/ push forward.

liolio 07-12-2018 10:18 AM

I've some extra time, I'm trying to print that whenever we speak about internal external shoulder rotation for most neutral might already be internally rotated and if one gets into issue it may be a good idea to experience (and discover) the full range of motion of the arm in those opposed rotations ( external arm probation for the forearm). It felt weird to me but got me realize I never did a GOOD push-up. Then clearly the scapula can move a lot and internal rotation is necessary ( but most do not start from neutral and there is a lot of strength to be found by forcing external rotation).
I believe Phelps does it right thought at racing pace one does not have the time for perfect motions so he short cut to increase his spl. Phelps shoulders , flexibility aside which is linked, are not rounded at all and it back is relatively flat too. Many swimmer have rounded shoulders and back, he might do something different so his back muscles are not overwhelmed by his pectoral/front muscles.

sclim 07-12-2018 09:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by sclim (Post 66013)
I stepped slowly through your description, and from what I understand, you are saying that you can get the similar effect of arm pronation (internal rotation of the humerus on the glenoid fossa, i.e. the "joint" of the scapula)...

Oops, I said it wrong. I meant internal rotation of the humerus. Pronation, of course occurs below the elbow, and would not help to achieve a vertical or near vertical forearm, which would require the axis of the elbow "hinge" to be rotated to as close to the horizontal line (when in swimming position) as possible.

Zenturtle 07-14-2018 08:49 AM

This recovery drill isnt so much about the precise catch details, but making a mental picture of solidifying and stretching the low side while the upperside of the body stays flexible and loose.
This way you ride on the ramrod stright lowside and hav this as a foundation for a short while before setting up your catch, but at the same time you free up the high side of your upperbody to throw the upper shoulder forward as you throw froward a roll of rope from a boat to the shore.
With the loose uppershoulder you can also ROTATE that shoulder and upperbodypart a bit up-WHILE KEEPING THE LOW PART STRETCHED OUT AND STRAIGHT-, so its not just rotating the whole core, but the left and right body part have different tone and move differently.
This relaxing and upward roling of the high side als frees the shoulder joint itself from stress, the upper arm isnt pressed back towards the shoulderjoint so much as without this movement.
Elite swimmers take this opportunity to take the arm even higher and closer to the centerline, and shoulder very close to the head, but there is no need to this as an amateur if you are too stif. The basic idea can be copied though.

The above described be seen clearly in sec 33 to 37 in Pellegrinis relaxed stroke.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXEbJKQKXw0

Her low side is a perfectly streamlined straight vessel. On that vessel she moves her shoulder and arm very loosely forward, almost independantly.
When you look at the stroke from this prespective, you see Toarmina has the same basic idea in her recovery drill stroke. A lot of elite swimmers practice this style too. Its pretty fundamental in the total setup of the rhythm of the stroke.

Try to swim this way some time exagerating the idea. It can give a big aha erlebnis moment in your swim development.

Right after the riding on the outretched edge, the outstretched edge is formed into a solid paddle at the low side, the transition gains momentum and the the loose high side is throw in the water etc etc

Hayden Wooley also has some of this idea in his stroke
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Y5OVXuHGys

And this guys above water upper body halfs action
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EGRT0zyQ0wY

sclim 07-14-2018 02:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66034)
This recovery drill isnt so much about the precise catch details, but making a mental picture of solidifying and stretching the low side while the upperside of the body stays flexible and loose.
This way you ride on the ramrod stright lowside and hav this as a foundation for a short while before setting up your catch, but at the same time you free up the high side of your upperbody to throw the upper shoulder forward as you throw froward a roll of rope from a boat to the shore.

Wow, Zenturtle, I've been following multiple threads and intricate descriptions of mechanics of rotation, recovery and catch setup for years, but this is the first time I've understood such a succinct description of the profound difference one should make in the tone of the low side and high side upper body quadrants.

It really makes a whole lot of sense to me the way you describe it -- I wonder why I didn't see this earlier. Or was this a sort of between the lines thing that one innately understood when doing it, so it didn't need to be explicitly stated?

Mushroomfloat 07-14-2018 03:25 PM

yes shelia taormina explains it pretty well in the recovery video, "if you wanna load your core on a lengthened serape plane, you gotta have big air under there"

"what we want you to feel is your core lengthening and loading"

Zenturtle 07-14-2018 11:09 PM

Try it mushroomfloat, I am pretty sure you will like it. Its in the statue of liberty style of swimming.
Its funny how you can watch different videos so many times but still not understand fully whats being said. Until you have done it more or less yourself you fail to understand the words. You only absorb what you already know from the words, or they just pass unnoticed.
That makes it interesting to watch the same videos a few years later.
Now you see different things again in the same videos after you discovered new things.
It still amazes me there is so little talk/video about what muscles in the core do what at what time.
There is a lot thats happening inside that translates to the style of swimming, and how the arms and legs react to the sequence of core muscles fired.

That big air under there, hmm thats more to exagerate the flying arm in the air and feel the balance of that on your low lenghtened underwater side.
Its a bit like balancing on a bike while swinging with an arm. exagerating it makes you aware of your balance and if you can hold balance with big disturbtions from the swinging arm you have improved your balance on that edge.
Next step is going from that balance to your anchor in a smooth way, and loading that catch for a moment with the weight of the recovering arm and high side of the body.
Thats also a sort of balance, but now more on your anchor point.

Mushroomfloat 07-15-2018 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66048)
Try it mushroomfloat, I am pretty sure you will like it. Its in the statue of liberty style of swimming.
Its funny how you can watch different videos so many times but still not understand fully whats being said. Until you have done it more or less yourself you fail to understand the words. You only absorb what you already know from the words, or they just pass unnoticed.
That makes it interesting to watch the same videos a few years later.
Now you see different things again in the same videos after you discovered new things.
It still amazes me there is so little talk/video about what muscles in the core do what at what time.
There is a lot thats happening inside that translates to the style of swimming, and how the arms and legs react to the sequence of core muscles fired.

That big air under there, hmm thats more to exagerate the flying arm in the air and feel the balance of that on your low lenghtened underwater side.
Its a bit like balancing on a bike while swinging with an arm. exagerating it makes you aware of your balance and if you can hold balance with big disturbtions from the swinging arm you have improved your balance on that edge.
Next step is going from that balance to your anchor in a smooth way, and loading that catch for a moment with the weight of the recovering arm and high side of the body.
Thats also a sort of balance, but now more on your anchor point.

Yes i have been on it for 2 yrs now, i studied kpn & marc evans both advocate holding the V line whilst you recover
similar to what taormina is saying.
you hold the glide out whilst you recover but around shoulder height the underwater arm takes over and anchors whipping the last bit of recovery to entry

my problem has been hip timing and retardation which i am approaching fixing by making sure im riding the top edge of the hip on the same side as the entering arm and not reaching across my body (I posted in another thread)

Mushroomfloat 07-15-2018 03:38 AM

I think ther is also an element of highside arm held above head weighing on a fixed underwater glide line that can add momentum to the glide just by hanging up there over the front

Zenturtle 07-15-2018 06:30 AM

Sclim, watch Shinjis recovery at 1 min 36 and compare with Pellegrini from 34 tp 37 sec.
The same fundamentals. Stable low line, loose upper shoulder/upper body half.

Shinji 1min 35- 1 min 40
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ORQoXa4ntqU

Pellegrini 33 to 37 sec.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hXEbJKQKXw0

Not bad for Shinji to reach the same technical level at this subject as an olympic that started swimming at the age of 1.

Zenturtle 07-15-2018 06:40 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66052)
I think ther is also an element of highside arm held above head weighing on a fixed underwater glide line that can add momentum to the glide just by hanging up there over the front

yeah, sure. I call this `surfing the recovery weight`.
Your low outstretched shoulder to your elbow to your hand is the slow sinking surfboard.

still one of my favorites to bridge the gap between extension and getting into the catch smoothly. A must master drill for most TI swimmers on youtube (and in real live probably)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE

rami999 08-01-2018 09:40 PM

the replys are perfect


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