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-   -   Weight on catch in a long stroke (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9652)

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 09:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66148)
this is how the sinking swimmer looks underwater.

weight above low arm
picture hosting


Arm has landed in the water. (so wide, that it causes drag by the way)
photo hosting

Totally under water, arm starts to pull, elbow starts to drop


At full anchor, partly dropped elbow
fotos delen

This guy is strong and a pretty good swimmer, but you can see the tendency of a dropped elbow is there. in his case he is holding everything still reasonably together.
Beginning swimmers wont be able to hold the elbow up if they want to swim faster than very relaxed with this timing.
And where has the potential energy gone? I dont know.

Swimming with this timing and lack of paddle setup is missing efficiency in 4 manners:

1 Not transferring weight into propulsion
2 Not setting up an optimal propulsive maximal drag shape for anchoring properly, therefore creating extra slippage of water around the anchor.
3 Not setting up a proper time envelope for increasing the pressure on the anchor. Optimal traction is generated when the pressure is build up gradually toward the maximal leverage point and held or increased from there on.
4 Increase of velocity variation during the cycle, which leads to extra energy expenditure compared to swimming with constant forward velocity.

The posiible positive influence is that the body is slightly longer in a long streamlined shape, but as can be seen, the difference with Kirby is very minimal.
Even though the timing and setup differences are subtle, seen from the outside, the resulting effect on the total stroke is quite significant. This transition at the front influences the whole following underwater phase of the low side, and that has also an effect how your core and the rest of the body reacts on this different force on the underwater side.
A differnt anchor on the low side also effects the effectiveness of the possible forward throwing action of the high side,
because this forward throwing also finds a partial foundation in the low side anchor.

So you think it's naff then?

I've been practising all morning
the wider arm keeps the upperarm higher which seems to reduce drag i found?

I think the main benefit is that both arms are out over the front which greatly aids in keeping the hips and legs up

i watch the other swimmers doing classic high elbow recovery with a full finish and the all were dragging lowish legs

whereas i was relativley cruising along pretty much on the surface

i did focus on keeping the elbow up at catch and i could tell when i let it slip.

it's like classic TI keeping that lead arm out but letting it drop like a slowly sinking surfboard.

I pretty much had what lezak was talking about, early catch connected to the core (hips)

There is a point where the anchor starts to control the recovery arm, but once it punches in your running on the other edge nicely.

I found the key is in the transition of the hips thru flat to the other edge, get this smooth and timed right and you can really ramp it up.

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 09:45 AM

I was getting some envious looks off the other freestylers and was by far the fastest there this morning

Its quite easy to morph into shoulder driven from this stroke too so you can turn that on & off at will, i was doing one length of each using the long hip driven stroke for recovery.

Zenturtle 08-01-2018 12:47 PM

I dont know how you swim. I dont know how well you are physically able to make a high elbow at the front of your stroke , your shoulder flexibility and your risk for shoulder injuries.
This determines at what angle you want to have the leading arm and how soon you have to start preparing for catch.
Also the natural balance varies between persons, which also shifts priorities in the execution.
If you have stiff weak shoulders, tight hipflexors, tight ankles and sinky legs, pff, makes it all more difficult.
If not, lucky you.

Its hard to discuss personal perceptions without pictures.

the wider arm keeps the upperarm higher which seems to reduce drag i found? No idea what you mean.

I think the main benefit is that both arms are out over the front which greatly aids in keeping the hips and legs up
yeah, that is a benefit

i watch the other swimmers doing classic high elbow recovery with a full finish and the all were dragging lowish legs
You mean you are against finishing the stroke? dragging legs can have lots of causes

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 01:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66153)
I dont know how you swim. I dont know how well you are physically able to make a high elbow at the front of your stroke , your shoulder flexibility and your risk for shoulder injuries.
This determines at what angle you want to have the leading arm and how soon you have to start preparing for catch.
Also the natural balance varies between persons, which also shifts priorities in the execution.
If you have stiff weak shoulders, tight hipflexors, tight ankles and sinky legs, pff, makes it all more difficult.
If not, lucky you.

Its hard to discuss personal perceptions without pictures.

the wider arm keeps the upperarm higher which seems to reduce drag i found? No idea what you mean.

I think the main benefit is that both arms are out over the front which greatly aids in keeping the hips and legs up
yeah, that is a benefit

i watch the other swimmers doing classic high elbow recovery with a full finish and the all were dragging lowish legs
You mean you are against finishing the stroke? dragging legs can have lots of causes

Yes, i feather out before the finish and back to the front, this keeps both arms out over the front.
i find if i fully finish it delays the return to the front, couple that with a high elbow recovery and you dont get the level position of the body, the legs sit lower.

re drag from upper arm, this is a big issue, the deeper the upperarm goes the more drag, so by entering shoulder width and sweeping out wide it minimises the depth of the upper arm keeping it nearer the surface. (wider makes it a bit easier to get a high elbow catch too i find.
i'll post a vid on upper arm below.

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 01:08 PM

v
https://youtu.be/yOVRbVxLktw

Zenturtle 08-01-2018 01:14 PM

havent seen this one. like this guy. Have seen other good descriptions from him.
Agree with his descriptions.

Going wider makes it easier to catch properly I agree. Dont want to go to wide though. Its all a bit personal within certain OK limits.

Zenturtle 08-01-2018 01:25 PM

so you try to have this kind of exit?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFsgNSDYzks

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 05:47 PM

Yes! the "karate chop" exit

it's actually a butterfly exit with butterfly like arm recovery

"all 4 strokes will teach you about the others" this is very true

breaststroke is the best way to learn how to set up the catch, i swim half breast then morph into freestyle
the back & underside of the upper arm is key (catch with it, keep upper arm high to minimise drag.

Sheila taormina stroke exit, this really works
v

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 05:51 PM

https://youtu.be/OdaP6DdrQIw

This is great, hand pitch is everything to blend smoothly into the recovery

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 05:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66157)
havent seen this one. like this guy. Have seen other good descriptions from him.
Agree with his descriptions.

Going wider makes it easier to catch properly I agree. Dont want to go to wide though. Its all a bit personal within certain OK limits.

KPN says go wide to "V" narrow ie sweep wide but retract pull towards torso


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