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Zenturtle 07-14-2018 07:31 AM

swimtraining with TI like stuff in it
 
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJKhOLpv0Oo

Looks a bit oldschool to me now. Dont like the overrolling hips relative to the smaller shoulder roll, that sets up the core at he low side line too litle in my opinion, but for the rest, pretty decent swimming.

paul2121 07-14-2018 09:43 AM

Thanks zen

It has our old favourites, Unco, Closed Fist and Longdog.

What was new to me was Catch and Throw but using a big paddle.

Something for us to try tomorrow.

Mushroomfloat 07-14-2018 02:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66033)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJKhOLpv0Oo

Looks a bit oldschool to me now. Dont like the overrolling hips relative to the smaller shoulder roll, that sets up the core at he low side line too litle in my opinion, but for the rest, pretty decent swimming.

This is great, something i was figuring out last week is the hip moving down in time for entry so your not reaching across your body in a twist,
you need to be beginning to ride the right hip as the right arm is heading for entry otherwise you are reaching across your body in a twist this stunts fwd momentum.

Mushroomfloat 07-14-2018 02:30 PM

Its subtle but wxplained well here by Cokie lepinski

https://youtu.be/O-TygMAyvtg

Zenturtle 07-14-2018 10:31 PM

Right, I showed that video a few times also. indeed the differnce is subtle from the outside, but when you know the differnce, the diffeence in swim perception is substantial.
When I started swimming I was intrigued by the power from the hips mantra and rolled my hips a lot to extract that mystical power from it.
Simply rolling the hips is useless and even counterproductive.
The hips are part of a kinetic chain and need to be controlled in amplitude to extract the optimal amount of power following that kinetic chain.
Just when throwing a ball or boxing or throwing a spear or golfing; swinging your hips without proper connection to the rest of the motions of the body is just silly.

you might focus on the roll of your low side hip when swimming slow. Mostly the hip overrolls and has to be rolled back all the way to the other side every stroke. Like a big mass is attached to your hips that keeps on rolling when it has gained momentum. females suffer more from it than males usually, which makes sense.
Now control that hips roll and transfer the rol of the hip to the shoulder , so that the shoulder is taken along with the hip rotation, while you lenghten and reach with the low side of the body.
Now the roll of the hips decreases and the roll of the shoulder increases a bit.
That takes some muscle tension and tone to accomplish, but you will get rid of the overshoot and feel that your body tracks more straight and forward.
You simply eliminate superfluous and unneeded extra motion from your stroke.

Zenturtle 08-05-2018 08:41 PM

And this was Quick before Boomer influenced him

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3YE2JjJpRA

A lot of kicking....

CoachJamesEwart 08-06-2018 05:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by paul2121 (Post 66036)
Thanks zen

It has our old favourites, Unco, Closed Fist and Longdog.

What was new to me was Catch and Throw but using a big paddle.

Something for us to try tomorrow.

Th Unco drill?

CoachJamesEwart 08-06-2018 05:27 PM

I can't see anyything remotely "TI like" here ... what have I missed please?

Zenturtle 08-06-2018 06:06 PM

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kJKhOLpv0Oo

Quite some talk about being streamlined, balanced, efficiency,using the whole body etc.
Where do you not agree? (except the use of a 6bk)

By the way, I see you are a technique interested coach, with a lot of genuinly satisfied customers it seems.
As an engineer, I am also quite interested in solving and analyzing the whole swimming puzzle. Any feedback on my thoughts of optimal swimming which I post here and there is apreciated, if its based on sound arguments.

CoachJamesEwart 08-06-2018 07:33 PM

"TI Like"
 
Who said I did not like the 6 beat kick? Depends on the distance. But when I see replies from people on this thread a talking aboiut "unco" drills I question the integrity of the thread. I see you have been a contributor for a long time and that's great and thank you for that. But we know nothing about your credentials as a TI swimmer and it would be great if you coud share those to give your posts some context. Perhaps you did post them before and I missed them in which case I apologise but please do take the opportunity to share now.
For sure TI does seem to always appeal to people seeking to understand the phsysics like yourself. AS TI coaches we like to try and be the interface for people like yourself who undertand there is physics at work here.

and nice to meet you Zen Turtle ... great name by the way.

best regards

James

Zenturtle 08-06-2018 10:23 PM

I am not a TI swimmer or a swimsmooth swimmer or whatever.
Just a guy who started swimming 6 years ago already, and trying all the dishes available on his own.
That means, trying differnt swimming styles to see what makes them tick as far thats possible for a middle aged guy with an avarage engine size.
Still havent found my personal style by all this messing around, but its converging to a certain stroke. Luckily the very raw basics for a good stroke are the same for any style.

But whats wrong with unco? One of the best drills around if you execute it properly I think.

Mushroomfloat 08-06-2018 11:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66050)
Right, I showed that video a few times also. indeed the differnce is subtle from the outside, but when you know the differnce, the diffeence in swim perception is substantial.
When I started swimming I was intrigued by the power from the hips mantra and rolled my hips a lot to extract that mystical power from it.
Simply rolling the hips is useless and even counterproductive.
The hips are part of a kinetic chain and need to be controlled in amplitude to extract the optimal amount of power following that kinetic chain.
Just when throwing a ball or boxing or throwing a spear or golfing; swinging your hips without proper connection to the rest of the motions of the body is just silly.

you might focus on the roll of your low side hip when swimming slow. Mostly the hip overrolls and has to be rolled back all the way to the other side every stroke. Like a big mass is attached to your hips that keeps on rolling when it has gained momentum. females suffer more from it than males usually, which makes sense.
Now control that hips roll and transfer the rol of the hip to the shoulder , so that the shoulder is taken along with the hip rotation, while you lenghten and reach with the low side of the body.
Now the roll of the hips decreases and the roll of the shoulder increases a bit.
That takes some muscle tension and tone to accomplish, but you will get rid of the overshoot and feel that your body tracks more straight and forward.
You simply eliminate superfluous and unneeded extra motion from your stroke.

Yes, tone on the skate edge, i went to the pool tonight with that in mind and i opened up with that fingertips to toes then relaxed through the transition and firmed up again on the other skate edge, that is how you get the fast skate on egde, without tone it's very lacklustre, i must have had the apperance of doing virtually nothing but rocketing along :-)

daveblt 08-07-2018 01:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66208)
Yes, tone on the skate edge, i went to the pool tonight with that in mind and i opened up with that fingertips to toes then relaxed through the transition and firmed up again on the other skate edge, that is how you get the fast skate on egde, without tone it's very lacklustre, i must have had the apperance of doing virtually nothing but rocketing along :-)


So, you roll to one side , extend from the shoulder while keeping the arm relaxed with pinky down and at the exact same time the leg on the same side is poised in the upbeat position ,the whole body is long stretched and balanced like you are on your tippy toes then repeat to the other side .

Dave

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-07-2018 04:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66207)
I am not a TI swimmer or a swimsmooth swimmer or whatever.
Just a guy who started swimming 6 years ago already, and trying all the dishes available on his own.
That means, trying differnt swimming styles to see what makes them tick as far thats possible for a middle aged guy with an avarage engine size.
Still havent found my personal style by all this messing around, but its converging to a certain stroke. Luckily the very raw basics for a good stroke are the same for any style.

But whats wrong with unco? One of the best drills around if you execute it properly I think.

ZT, six years? Triathlon, open water or pool comp? Where are your from, what pools do you swim, open water, ocean or lake - both?

Re: Unco. This is what SS has named the single arm drill - short for uncoordinated or something? Single arm free drill has been around forever. I would hope a swimmer could coordinate one arm in freestyle if they're swimming with two and if they have two functioning arms. Some of us in TI use single arm drill and some don't - Terry used for specific reasons too. I prefer single arm fly as opposed to single arm free. Being "one of the best drills" what specifically do you use it to improve where two arms just get in the way? What is the point of the drill other than to feel a lack of coordination or being unco'd?

Stu
mindbodyandswim.com

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 05:58 AM

Just swimming a bit up and down in the pool a few times a week.

Unco is good for:

Timing
Roll from the core
Balancing and staying aligned while being thrown off course by the recovering arm, or the pulling arm
Connection your catch and pull with your body twist/roll
Breathing while not disturbing the process.

Because you are more concentrated one one side of the body you can focus on whats happening better.
Unco or one arm swimming is a very difficult action to do perfect. Even the olympic swimmer cant keep perfectly aligned and struggles a bit if you watch her in slowmo.
The beauty is that its very close to the starting point of swimming, that is being in balance rotationally and between front and rear.
Now you add disturbing actions and you have to stay balanced and also make sure you are making forward progress while staying aligned.
With every action you can focus on the effect of that action.
How does lifting of the arm out the water effects my rotational balance and where does the body sink during that action? How does the body react on a fast recovery, on a slow recovery? How does the lifting of the non working arm help rotation? Can I use more core and legs or a smoother recovery to do that work in the water?
What part of the body is bending a bit instead of only rotating around the axis? In what sequence connect all the bodyparts if I imagine them to be seperate parts, only allowed to rotate around a spit? Can I add abit of that bending and twisting to my advantage without creating too much drag, or loosing the rotation around a spit idea too much?
How do I make the whole cycle smooth? How can my legs help rotation a bit?
At what time do I add a bit of shoulder twist and reach, and how do i set up the arm in the water so that the following actions dont cause the body to be steered off line or the body starts to bounce?
Because there is only one arm thats anchoring, its more important to get the connection with the water and all the following actions in the body timed just right. You are having a one cilinder engine that you are trying to operate as vibration free as a 2 cilinder engine.
If you can do that, your 2 cilinder engine will run as smooth as a 4 cilinder engine.

Well, I hope you can see what I try to say..I hardly have time to relax in the pool haha.

IngeA 08-07-2018 06:26 AM

Terry has also a one side drill: Single side swimming.

- I also tried the commonly used single side swimming with one hand outstretched. I didn't like it. At first, this was very easy to perform, but it didn't give me any benefits either. But it hinders a bit the rotation because to do a correct rotation you had to rotate the outstretched arm to the top side. In single fly that's different, because there is no need of rotation.

- Terry's single side swimming is different. You must have a very stable core to perform it because all correcting and stabilising movements of the second arm you can't do. The entire rotation you have to do with the core muscles, you cant initiate it with the arms. I can do this drill now (with 2-beat kick), but not always it's easy to breathe in this drill for me. I will have do practice some more :o)

- As I see in videos, the UNCO-drill very much like Terry's single side swimming. But the breathe is on the back arm side. On the videos I've seen most swimmers use the back arme to initiate the back rotation, but it may be that's because of that is what someone does who does not rally master the drill. I don't know. It looks like me to be the "easier form" of Terry's drill.I think the drill can teach better core control, but breathing on the stroke side is much more challenging than on the other side because the support of the outstretched hand is missing.

Everyone has his own drills he likes or he doesn't like. I like Terry's drill very much even if i felt drowning the first times i did it. And the other two drills may have their point too for other people.

Best regards

Inge

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 06:49 AM

Here you can see how difficult it is to do it right and how revealing it can be.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QhlsLosj15g

Terrys pulling nechanics can be improved. It causes massive up and down bobbing by pushing water down underwater pushing the body up, together with the weight of the recovering arm pushing the body down a moment later, setting up an up and down bobbing rhythm. He even has to wait until his body floats up again to take a breath. He could also have chosen a strokerate that amplifies that natural rhythm and become a loper, but it seems the rhytm is to low frequency for that in his case.
Terry just didnt have the flexibility to have better underwater mechanics probably, and here it shows up much more than in normal stroke.

Even with those limitations its possible to swim well, as Terry proved, but its interesting to become aware of your limitations, and try if you can limit the negative effect they are causing. Unco certainly can help with that.

if you do unco like this, its indeed useless
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gq3Uf5asWJg

cant find a good unco example anymore.
Whell, this is a good one
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z6PtNd9Z4Hg
this is a very good one, but with fins
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aYagyjgpzFQ
but looking for a good one with a 2BK...
A good one with a pull buoy
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L1Oc20LbOA8
This proves that the kick is not the only mean to establish rotation.

a beautifull single arm fly
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cdsYAO2eI4g

well, dont know , but seems more about undulation instead of rotation.

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-07-2018 08:04 AM

ZT,

Terry sinks in the one arm drill since he’s not wearing fins like the swimmer doing the “SS unco drill” wearing fins. So you’re putting a right and wrong context, one wearing fins and one not which itself is misleading at minimum. If you have to wear fins to perform a drill, only masks an imbalance issue created by the drill - and then what’s the point of the drill? So again, what is one becoming aware of using this drill other than creating the impulse to pull?

The single arm fly you posted too creates the impulse to pull with the opposite arm floating below the surface next to hip, may as well be single arm free with some fly undulation. The single arm fly I use with my swimmers, opposite arm remains in front to maintain balance as the high side arm swings forward from the pelvis accessing external forces of the weight and momentum as it swings forward and thus minimizing and being aware of primal impulses to pull to stabilize the vessel.

You noted you are an engineer. Curious, what type of engineering do you practice?

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 08:14 AM

Just Like Inge, I think the one arm always in front variaty limits the rotation and the possibiliy to feel the proper connection from catch to core. rolling all the way from left to right.

Even with fins, you will get up and down bounce if you dont do it right. The disturbance is at shoulder height, not at the rear of the vessel.
You always get some bounce, but it shouldnt be excessive, or it should be deliberate, in an undulating manner.
There is a lot happening between hips and elbows that can be managed one way or the other, wearing fins or not.
From all these actions only a part is directly related to front-rear balance, what is always your main concern in your reactions.
The rest is concerned with finding an optimal dynamic compromise between propulslon and streamline.
If your basic balance is good, thats not your only purpose anymore. Balance is the platform to work from. Not the main action on itself.

mechanical engineer offcourse :-)

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-07-2018 08:20 AM

ZT,

If you’re an engineer of any discipline, you know to compare tests in the same scenario or environment to get valid results, otherwise inconclusive. Using inconclusive testing to support an argument, well is meaningless, but good marketing maybe. So what’s the point of the “unco” single arm drill if one is to use the drill?

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 08:34 AM

how many words to use?

Unco is good for:

Timing
Roll from the core
Balancing and staying aligned while being thrown off course by the recovering arm, or the pulling arm
Connection your catch and pull with your body twist/roll
Breathing while not disturbing the process.

Because you are more concentrated one one side of the body you can focus on whats happening better.
Unco or one arm swimming is a very difficult action to do perfect. Even the olympic swimmer cant keep perfectly aligned and struggles a bit if you watch her in slowmo.
The beauty is that its very close to the starting point of swimming, that is being in balance rotationally and between front and rear.
Now you add disturbing actions and you have to stay balanced and also make sure you are making forward progress while staying aligned.
With every action you can focus on the effect of that action.
How does lifting of the arm out the water effects my rotational balance and where does the body sink during that action? How does the body react on a fast recovery, on a slow recovery? How does the lifting of the non working arm help rotation? Can I use more core and legs or a smoother recovery to do that work in the water?
What part of the body is bending a bit instead of only rotating around the axis? In what sequence connect all the bodyparts if I imagine them to be seperate parts, only allowed to rotate around a spit? Can I add abit of that bending and twisting to my advantage without creating too much drag, or loosing the rotation around a spit idea too much?
How do I make the whole cycle smooth? How can my legs help rotation a bit?
At what time do I add a bit of shoulder twist and reach, and how do i set up the arm in the water so that the following actions dont cause the body to be steered off line or the body starts to bounce?
Because there is only one arm thats anchoring, its more important to get the connection with the water and all the following actions in the body timed just right. You are having a one cilinder engine that you are trying to operate as vibration free as a 2 cilinder engine.
If you can do that, your 2 cilinder engine will run as smooth as a 4 cilinder engine.

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 08:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66208)
Yes, tone on the skate edge, i went to the pool tonight with that in mind and i opened up with that fingertips to toes then relaxed through the transition and firmed up again on the other skate edge, that is how you get the fast skate on egde, without tone it's very lacklustre, i must have had the apperance of doing virtually nothing but rocketing along :-)

Terry has talked about the stable low side and the relaxed high shoulderblade, but the focus is always on the recovery in TI, not so much on the catch side of things.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eWzQc1XadHk (from 45 sec)

The movement done on the learners arm mimics the right recovery movement in the above water part, but also mimics the dropped elbow movement for the underwaterpart.... yeah, how to teach everything and not overwhelm the student with information overload?

By the way this is more on topic in another thread.

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 09:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 66216)
ZT,

Terry sinks in th.........other than creating the impulse to pull?

The single arm fly you posted too creates the impulse to pull ..... The single arm fly I use with my swimmers, opposite arm remains in front to maintain balance
Mindbodyandswim.com

OK. one arm always in front makes front- rear balance easier I agree. But more or less blocks rotation, and teaches 100% catchup timing which is not optimal normal swimtiming.
OK. It does force the swimmer to use the core/hip/leg region to use as a foundation for throwing that arm forward.
There is nothing else left to help that movement. Is that what you want to achieve?

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 66216)
ZT,
...as the high side arm swings forward from the pelvis accessing external forces of the weight and momentum as it swings forward and thus minimizing and being aware of primal impulses to pull to stabilize the vessel.

Mindbodyandswim.com


External forces of the weight and momentum?... Where do you think that weight gets its momentum from?
You alway talk about primal instincts to pull. So what place does the pull have in the stroke besides being primal and intinctive? (instinctive being to balance and get to air I suppose)

CoachJamesEwart 08-07-2018 11:46 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66207)
I am not a TI swimmer or a swimsmooth swimmer or whatever.
Just a guy who started swimming 6 years ago already, and trying all the dishes available on his own.
That means, trying differnt swimming styles to see what makes them tick as far thats possible for a middle aged guy with an avarage engine size.
Still havent found my personal style by all this messing around, but its converging to a certain stroke. Luckily the very raw basics for a good stroke are the same for any style.

But whats wrong with unco? One of the best drills around if you execute it properly I think.

Thanks. Can you post a link to clip of yourself executing it properly? Of course some people find different drills beneficial so if you find it helps you then that's great. My experience of these kind of drills is that they do not help create natural stability or flow. 'Hip with your hips' is one thing but using them independently of the core is quite another and I find people get themseves in quite a muddle when they start trying to jerk their hips from one side to another.

CoachJamesEwart 08-07-2018 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66221)
OK. one arm always in front makes front- rear balance easier I agree. But more or less blocks rotation, and teaches 100% catchup timing which is not optimal normal swimtiming.
OK. It does force the swimmer to use the core/hip/leg region to use as a foundation for throwing that arm forward.
There is nothing else left to help that movement. Is that what you want to achieve?


External forces of the weight and momentum?... Where do you think that weight gets its momentum from?
You alway talk about primal instincts to pull. So what place does the pull have in the stroke besides being primal and intinctive? (instinctive being to balance and get to air I suppose)


The Pull works best when timed with rotation. We exert pressure to drive forwards from high side to low side past that anchoring low side hand. Pull too soon and you have lost the coupling motion of shifting and catching and holding at the same time. That's another thng that's unhelpful about the Unco drill - it messes up your timing.

Danny 08-07-2018 12:02 PM

There are two forms of this one-armed freestyle, depending on which side you breath on. Supposedly each one highlights some aspect of balance and timing, but I won't try to get in to that, because I'm only familiar with the version I use, where I breath on the side of the stroking arm. I also like to swim this way with my hand closed in a fist. I can slow the stroke way down when I do this, which allows me to focus on my timing of hips and shoulders. The other thing this seems to help is precisely the bobbing that ZT was referring to. A slow one armed recovery means that your recovering arm is spending more time out of the water, which pushes your body down. This can help you to time your breathing with the natural bobbing of your body induced by the heavy arm outside the water. At more realistic swimming rates, this effect becomes smaller, so it is harder to teach yourself how to exploit it and coordinate it with your breathing.

Some years ago there was a long thread on this forum about one-armed breathing, which I can't find now, but others with better web skills might be able to put up a link to it. Two coaches who saw some virtue in this drill were Charles Couterier and Suzanne Atkinson.

CoachJamesEwart 08-07-2018 12:08 PM

[quote=Danny;66226]There are two forms of this one-armed freestyle, depending on which side you breath on. Supposedly each one highlights some aspect of balance and timing, but I won't try to get in to that, because I'm only familiar with the version I use, where I breath on the side of the stroking arm. I also like to swim this way with my hand closed in a fist. I can slow the stroke way down when I do this, which allows me to focus on my timing of hips and shoulders. The other thing this seems to help is precisely the bobbing that ZT was referring to. A slow one armed recovery means that your recovering arm is spending more time out of the water, which pushes your body down. This can help you to time your breathing with the natural bobbing of your body induced by the heavy arm outside the water. At more realistic swimming rates, this effect becomes smaller, so it is harder to teach yourself how to exploit it and coordinate it with your breathing.


The recovering arm should not push the body down, it should help stability. You are most likely over rotating and recovering the arm too high if that's happening. You should definitely not be "bobbing". That is not how to breathe efficiently when swimming freestyle.

Mushroomfloat 08-07-2018 12:33 PM

Wheneer ive seen single arm drill done well there is a rythmical bobbing to the stroke
it comes from the boyancy in the chest pressing & rolling from side to side through flat

Danny 08-07-2018 12:40 PM

[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66227]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66226)
There are two forms of this one-armed freestyle, depending on which side you breath on. Supposedly each one highlights some aspect of balance and timing, but I won't try to get in to that, because I'm only familiar with the version I use, where I breath on the side of the stroking arm. I also like to swim this way with my hand closed in a fist. I can slow the stroke way down when I do this, which allows me to focus on my timing of hips and shoulders. The other thing this seems to help is precisely the bobbing that ZT was referring to. A slow one armed recovery means that your recovering arm is spending more time out of the water, which pushes your body down. This can help you to time your breathing with the natural bobbing of your body induced by the heavy arm outside the water. At more realistic swimming rates, this effect becomes smaller, so it is harder to teach yourself how to exploit it and coordinate it with your breathing.


The recovering arm should not push the body down, it should help stability. You are most likely over rotating and recovering the arm too high if that's happening. You should definitely not be "bobbing". That is not how to breathe efficiently when swimming freestyle.

This bobbing motion is more pronounced in the one arm drill because the opposing arm is down at your side and not extended. When the opposing arm is extended, it supports the weight of the recovering arm and damps the bobbing. If you look at the film of Terry doing the one armed drill you will also see a pronounced bobbing, as ZT has already pointed out.

In real freestyle, the opposing arm is extended and this effect is more subtle, but it is still there.

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 02:07 PM

Agree 100% with you here on the damping of the outstretched arm.
If you would make your body rigid and long from toe to fingertip with an outstretched arm like a long plank,than that shape will damped the temporary disturbances of the pull and the recovering weight more.
I find that the pull is mostly responsible for the bobbing, depending how hard you pull offcourse.
You really have to shape and accelerate your pull in a certain way to move forward in a more or less straight line with minimal bobbing.
It tells you often that your normal stroke has quite some sideways or up and down force components.


I have no footage of myself executing it properly. Still cant do it 100% properly also.
Sometimes its nearly there and feels wonderfull and smooth. Its getting better and better though. Feels more and more like normal swimming, but just with one arm less.
I like to do the easier version that is swimming 75% with one side and let the other side go along for the ride, help do the other 25 %
Than you still are close to normal swimming, with the recovering weight keeping you in the same rhythm, but only using the weight of the arm on the non working side in the recovery, also hardly any pulling on the non working side.
Its a bit like loping then, big pull and hip action on one side, limp fillup action at the other side.
Gives most of the benefits, buts easier to stay aligned and keep the rhythm going.
If you then try to go from 75 % one side to 90 % one side for instance, you can feel where it starts to break down and work on that part.

she also has a great one arm freestyle.(and normal)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vkt31KITQro (4 min20)

Danny 08-07-2018 02:17 PM

So I suppose that one way to explain the virtue of the one-armed drills is to note that your extended arm can be used to cover a lot of balance and stroking problems by compensating for them. When you put that arm down by your side, you no longer have that crutch and you can all of a sudden see all of the things you are doing wrong. Once you see them, you can work on correcting them.

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 02:24 PM

[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66227]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66226)
There are two forms of this one-armed freestyle, depending on which side you breath on. Supposedly each one highlights some aspect of balance and timing, but I won't try to get in to that, because I'm only familiar with the version I use, where I breath on the side of the stroking arm. I also like to swim this way with my hand closed in a fist. I can slow the stroke way down when I do this, which allows me to focus on my timing of hips and shoulders. The other thing this seems to help is precisely the bobbing that ZT was referring to. A slow one armed recovery means that your recovering arm is spending more time out of the water, which pushes your body down. This can help you to time your breathing with the natural bobbing of your body induced by the heavy arm outside the water. At more realistic swimming rates, this effect becomes smaller, so it is harder to teach yourself how to exploit it and coordinate it with your breathing.


The recovering arm should not push the body down, it should help stability. You are most likely over rotating and recovering the arm too high if that's happening. You should definitely not be "bobbing". That is not how to breathe efficiently when swimming freestyle.

The recovery arm is alway going to push the body down. Its only less when its done fairly smooth and fast and more on the side than over the top.

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 02:31 PM

My experience of these kind of drills is that they do not help create natural stability or flow. My experience of these kind of drills is that they do not help create natural stability or flow. 'Hip with your hips' is one thing but using them independently of the core is quite another and I find people get themseves in quite a muddle when they start trying to jerk their hips from one side to another.


what do you mean by ... these kind of drills?

'Hip with your hips' is one thing but using them independently of the core is quite another and I find people get themseves in quite a muddle when they start trying to jerk their hips from one side to another

what is the ´them´using them independently of the core?

so you agree with the message of the getting hips with your hips clip?So not rolling the hips for the sake of rolling the hips?

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 02:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachJamesEwart (Post 66225)
The Pull works best when timed with rotation. We exert pressure to drive forwards from high side to low side past that anchoring low side hand. Pull too soon and you have lost the coupling motion of shifting and catching and holding at the same time. That's another thng that's unhelpful about the Unco drill - it messes up your timing.


We exert pressure to drive forwards
where do we exert pressure?

Pull too soon
when is it too soon? Lets say you still use front quadrant timing. Is it too soon if you are still at the edge of front quadrant timing?

it messes up your timing
I have to think about this one. There are differnt ways to talk about timing.
One is the timing of one arm relative to the other when shifting from one side to the other. The weightshift.(with the kick etc)
The other is the timing of the the whole entering of the arm, setting up catch, connecting with core and kick, followed by recovery and back to entering and making that cycle as smooth and effective as possible.<
In my view the weight shift is a part of the whole sequence, but only a part of the whole stroke.
By taking away this part you can focus more on the other parts.
I have heard plenty times, and also from personal experience, that it improves your timing. Especially your smoothness and connection from all bodyparts that are still available.

CoachStuartMcDougal 08-07-2018 03:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66219)
how many words to use?

Unco is good for:

Timing
Roll from the core
Balancing and staying aligned while being thrown off course by the recovering arm, or the pulling arm
Connection your catch and pull with your body twist/roll
Breathing while not disturbing the process.

Because you are more concentrated one one side of the body you can focus on whats happening better.
Unco or one arm swimming is a very difficult action to do perfect. Even the olympic swimmer cant keep perfectly aligned and struggles a bit if you watch her in slowmo.
The beauty is that its very close to the starting point of swimming, that is being in balance rotationally and between front and rear.
Now you add disturbing actions and you have to stay balanced and also make sure you are making forward progress while staying aligned.
With every action you can focus on the effect of that action.
How does lifting of the arm out the water effects my rotational balance and where does the body sink during that action? How does the body react on a fast recovery, on a slow recovery? How does the lifting of the non working arm help rotation? Can I use more core and legs or a smoother recovery to do that work in the water?
What part of the body is bending a bit instead of only rotating around the axis? In what sequence connect all the bodyparts if I imagine them to be seperate parts, only allowed to rotate around a spit? Can I add abit of that bending and twisting to my advantage without creating too much drag, or loosing the rotation around a spit idea too much?
How do I make the whole cycle smooth? How can my legs help rotation a bit?
At what time do I add a bit of shoulder twist and reach, and how do i set up the arm in the water so that the following actions dont cause the body to be steered off line or the body starts to bounce?
Because there is only one arm thats anchoring, its more important to get the connection with the water and all the following actions in the body timed just right. You are having a one cilinder engine that you are trying to operate as vibration free as a 2 cilinder engine.
If you can do that, your 2 cilinder engine will run as smooth as a 4 cilinder engine.

Zt, I have to giggle on this one, and your response is why I avoid this drill. If you need to use this many words to describe what it does, there’s really no point to the drill. I would suggest change the name from UNCO to SAP, “single arm pull”, that’s what it is. This is what we want to avoid treating high and low side arms as independent departments, it’s all connected. The UNCO/SAP is like a one legged elephant (OLE?), if there were any benefit at all it’s removed with the problems, confusion, frustration it creates, especially for the novice. It may look cool to do with fins, but if cool has no specific point, it’s not cool and is counterproductive. I do kinda like OLE’ though, it’s catchy (pun intended) and describes it much better the UNCO :-). I suggest trying the TI “Slot to Skate”, this is the whole body connected move you are seeking, high and low side arms connected with hips, using weight of high side arm to rotate body and not pulling to rotate. Swimmers discover the complexities of the “catch” happens naturally too. Simple, effective, easy to execute, and is rehearsing the most important whole body movment and switch that quickly integrates into freestyle.

Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side. This is aimed at experienced swimmers that have no idea they’ve relied on the pulling arm for stability and human terrestrial movements triggering imbalance.

Maybe I missed it in the noise, but still didn’t catch what type of engineering you are in, where you from (Perth?), where you coach, your favorite swimming pool or areas, films of you swimming/drilling, etc. A little bio helps give us context of your background and love of swimming and coaching.

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com

Mushroomfloat 08-07-2018 03:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachStuartMcDougal (Post 66236)
Zt, I have to giggle on this one, and your response is why I avoid this drill. If you need to use this many words to describe what it does, there’s really no point to the drill. I would suggest change the name from UNCO to SAP, “single arm pull”, that’s what it is. This is what we want to avoid treating high and low side arms as independent departments, it’s all connected. The UNCO/SAP is like a one legged elephant (OLE?), if there were any benefit at all it’s removed with the problems, confusion, frustration it creates, especially for the novice. It may look cool to do with fins, but if cool has no specific point, it’s not cool and is counterproductive. I do kinda like OLE’ though, it’s catchy (pun intended) and describes it much better the UNCO :-). I suggest trying the TI “Slot to Skate”, this is the whole body connected move you are seeking, high and low side arms connected with hips, using weight of high side arm to rotate body and not pulling to rotate. Swimmers discover the complexities of the “catch” happens naturally too. Simple, effective, easy to execute, and is rehearsing the most important whole body movment and switch that quickly integrates into freestyle.

Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side. This is aimed at experienced swimmers that have no idea they’ve relied on the pulling arm for stability and human terrestrial movements triggering imbalance.

Maybe I missed it in the noise, but still didn’t catch what type of engineering you are in, where you from (Perth?), where you coach, your favorite swimming pool or areas, films of you swimming/drilling, etc. A little bio helps give us context of your background and love of swimming and coaching.

Stu
Mindbodyandswim.com

This is butterfly exit & recovery?

Also known at the "karate chop" recovery used by alot of pro freestylers.

Single arm fly drill that i have seen is an undulatiing body dolphin just using the one arm

CoachJamesEwart 08-07-2018 04:24 PM

[quote=Danny;66229]
Quote:

Originally Posted by CoachJamesEwart (Post 66227)

This bobbing motion is more pronounced in the one arm drill because the opposing arm is down at your side and not extended. When the opposing arm is extended, it supports the weight of the recovering arm and damps the bobbing. If you look at the film of Terry doing the one armed drill you will also see a pronounced bobbing, as ZT has already pointed out.

In real freestyle, the opposing arm is extended and this effect is more subtle, but it is still there.

You should not be bobbing and certainly not be using the aforementioned Bob to help you breathe.

I don't like the one armed drills for freetstyle in any of its form actually but if you find benefit in it then of course use it.

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 04:57 PM

So, if you are not supposed to bob, why is Terry bobbing so much during his one arm freestyle?
How could he stop the bobbing?

Zenturtle 08-07-2018 05:04 PM

for Coach Stuart


Re: Single arm fly. It’s not about rotation, it’s about releasing the arm away from body with relaxed shoulder and slicing in naturally while still holding your edge. Simple, precise and effective. You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward *without* the impulse to pull from low side

You’ll never see the body sink since the weight and momentum of the swinging arm is rebalancing the vessel and pulling the body forward

Maybe you dont need many words, but can somebody explain what is meant here?
How is the weight of the recovering arm pulling the body forward?
And where exactly does that forward pulling starts and stops?
Single arm fly where the body doesnt sink?
Do you have an example video from that drill?

You seem to assume I have some connection with swimsmooth?
I have not a single connection to any swimschool. I am not a coach. I am just someone who is interested in swimming.
I dont sell books. I dont have a single swimstyle bias. Contrary to TI or swimsmooth coaches, who are biased to one style or the other. Work in R&D as a mechanical engineer, in the Netherlands.

Danny 08-07-2018 05:08 PM

[quote=CoachJamesEwart;66238]
Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66229)

You should not be bobbing and certainly not be using the aforementioned Bob to help you breathe.

I don't like the one armed drills for freetstyle in any of its form actually but if you find benefit in it then of course use it.

James, if you mean that you should not introduce a Bob into your stroke for the purposes of facilitating breathing, then I agree with you totally.

I think the one armed drill is useful in the same way that skating is useful. Both drills remove the use of arms and hands to cover up stroke problems. The idea is that you should correct your problems rather than cover them up. So what does the one armed drill offer that skating does not? For me, a lot of problems can arise in the catch and anchor that may throw off my balance and torque me in a direction that I shouldn't be going in. Skating doesn't practice catch and anchor, but the one armed drill does, and without the extended hand on the other side, I get to see some of the problems I might otherwise not notice. Your objection that the catch and anchor should be a whole body movement, which is hindered in the one-armed drill also does not seem to hold to me. The part of the recovery that influences your catch and anchor is done with your recovering shoulder and torso, and there is nothing in the one-armed drill to stop you from practicing the high side recovery motion with your shoulder. In fact, placing more emphasis on shoulder recovery gives a useful perspective to me when I do it.

No drill is the same as full stroke, and all drills can be criticized for this. A drill emphasizes certain aspects of full stroke and neglects other aspects. Sometimes this emphasis can be useful, but it depends on what problems you are dealing with.

As far as bobbing is concerned, as I said above, it is a bad idea to introduce bobbing into your stroke to facilitate breathing. That said, the one armed drill does make you aware of what impact the recovering arm has on your body position in water. As a matter of principle, I find it helpful to be aware of such things. In full stroke, the bobbing is greatly reduced because of the extended arm. It is also impacted by the timing and nature of the kick. So there are a lot of choices here about what to do with this effect. But the effect is there and being aware of it is (in my opinion) a good thing. Breathing technique is an area that probably deserves its own thread (or even forum), but I will only observe that I see vast differences in the breathing technique (for example) of Terry and Shinji. I think a lot of these differences are due to differences in body type and flexibility. That is where each of us has to find their own right choices. Being aware of the weight of the recovering arm and its impact on breathing is (again in my opinion) something that is useful. what you do with this knowledge is up to you.


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