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-   -   straight arm traction (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9686)

Zenturtle 09-16-2018 12:54 AM

straight arm traction
 
This girl has exceptional good traction.
Slipfactor = amount of handslip/ amount of head forward movement= 10/17.5=0.57.
The avarage swimmer in your local pool has a slipfactor of about 1.5-2 at half the speed.
slipfactor is minimised by low drag, high traction, little speedvariation.


straight 1r


straight 2r


straight 3r


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=auO0L9hmP0E

to be more precise, starting point is where hand is definetely is starting to move backwards. Thats ok here, hand is even blurred by faster movement.

the newer, more prcis slip factor becomes:
handslip 12.5 -1= 11.5
head movement 20.5 -4.5 = 16
slipfactor =11.5/16= 0.72
So, worse than 0,57, differnce 0.15, but still..who does it better at this pace?

sclim 09-16-2018 02:56 AM

OK, so how does she do it??


"slipfactor is minimised by low drag, high traction, little speedvariation."


That's it??

Zenturtle 09-16-2018 08:00 AM

haha,well yes. Thats what it comes down to for an outside observer.
I keep it smple this time haha. How you achieve that is another question...

sclim 09-16-2018 07:23 PM

Reading between the lines, I think to myself, you mean, all my obsessive taking notes, trying to micromanage all the exacting details of how to grab that extra millimetre of length on each stroke, by keeping that exact elbow flexion angle that is the average of all those elite swimmers out there...turns out to be wasted intellectual exercise, because the efficiency actually has got nothing to do with that elbow angle or any other easily measured external detail that the obsessive video analyser can glean. It's actually due to some mystical hidden secret sauce that can't be transmitted. At least not easily transmitted, with some simple rule that the beginner can easily follow. Sigh. Again.

Actually I'm only half joking. Perhaps a useful working rule might be the 3rd factor you enumerated -- the "little speed variation" factor. One can actually take that and try to make use of that idea. Don't pull hard, increase the stroke force gradually, and spread the stroke force over a greater percentage of the stroke cycle.

Zenturtle 09-16-2018 08:01 PM

cant you send me some footage (pm ) of your stroke to make talking easier?

constant speed is an important one.
Imagine walking slowly 3km/h and dragging a 100 kg treetrunk through the water.
If you keep that trunk at a constant 3 km/h, you can imagine you dont need so much force to keep it floating forward. A bit of water flowing around it, walking very slow....
Now vary the speed of that treetrunc between 1 and 5 km/h in an alternating manner, whilke keeping the avarage speed the same 3km/h.
You can almost feel your arms getting tired already from pulling that thing forward and releasing it all the time instead of just dragging it forward calmly.

sclim 09-16-2018 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66580)
cant you send me some footage (pm ) of your stroke to make talking easier?

constant speed is an important one.
Imagine walking slowly 3km/h and dragging a 100 kg treetrunk through the water.
If you keep that trunk at a constant 3 km/h, you can imagine you dont need so much force to keep it floating forward. A bit of water flowing around it, walking very slow....
Now vary the speed of that treetrunc between 1 and 5 km/h in an alternating manner, whilke keeping the avarage speed the same 3km/h.
You can almost feel your arms getting tired already from pulling that thing forward and releasing it all the time instead of just dragging it forward calmly.

No, you don't need to convince me further -- I fully agree with your logic. In fact, use the infinitesimal calculus approach and imagine the swimmer undergoing variations of, say, + and - 1/4 mph. He may well enjoy the rest while he slows 1/4 mph and benefit from the lack of needing to put out as much power when he decelerates and coasts at his new speed of 2.75 mph. But then he has to accelerate to 3.25mph again (to keep his mean speed at 3.0 mph). This acceleration costs him more power than he saves during his deceleration. Equally dismaying, his energy cost overcoming drag at 3.25 mph (which is proportional to the cube of his velocity in the water), despite the saving at 2.75 mph, will always add up to more than that of the swimmer who doesn't vary his velocity and keeps precisely at 3.0 mph all the time.

Now, to develop the skill and the co-ordination to keep at 3.0 mph all the time without thinking so hard about it that something else screws up...as you say, that's another thing again.

The video thing is particularly awkward in the pool where I spend almost all my time. They have a thing about cameras due to an incident a few years ago. I may try and work something out, maybe. Or at another pool.

WFEGb 09-17-2018 01:49 AM

Hello ZT,
Quote:

This girl has exceptional good traction.
Slipfactor = amount of handslip/ amount of head forward movement= 10/17.5=0.57.
The avarage swimmer in your local pool has a slipfactor of about 1.5-2 at half the speed.
slipfactor is minimised by low drag, high traction, little speedvariation.
:-) ... yes, and now let's all swim that way, and we will be elites at once...

You're near to Rued's(?) researches and his results with it. Doubtless your points are important, but they can't be the whole story (too much oversimplification this time?). Emerging questions (to myself?):

- How can she move the arm from your screen1 to screen2 without initiating bopping? Her kick won't help, it's too late for it. Must be an extemely fine-tuned movement.
- How can she hold her streamlined lateral balance with so minimal (nearly no) FQ? Though it looks as if she holds an upward spear (it isn't with her straight arms) a litlle longer than I suspected.
- Is her different recovery (right more relaxed than left) necessary for any part of her stroke?

Though the Slipfactor can't be the salvation solution. Rough calculation of my own with armlength and SPL led to 0.47 with half collarbone included to 0.77. Seems not bad, but I'm one of the average swimmers needing doubled time...

Best regards,
Werner

Mushroomfloat 09-17-2018 07:31 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 66588)
Hello ZT,

- How can she hold her streamlined lateral balance with so minimal (nearly no) FQ? Though it looks as if she holds an upward spear (it isn't with her straight arms) a litlle longer than I suspected.
- Is her different recovery (right more relaxed than left) necessary for any part of her stroke?

Though the Slipfactor can't be the salvation solution. Rough calculation of my own with armlength and SPL led to 0.47 with half collarbone included to 0.77. Seems not bad, but I'm one of the average swimmers needing doubled time...

Best regards,
Werner

you arc forward and down on the extention whilst using core to drive the extention
this mantains the streamlining effect of fqs without going full 3/4 catch up

but to get here you have to spend alot of time doing 3/4 catchup and become attuned to streamlining glide effect
then you can slowly move to a more continious arm cycle and maintain the fwd gliding streamline of the FQS
with enough practice you can achive the same streamline glide within a more continious stroke and know the point when you start losing it

Mushroomfloat 09-17-2018 07:34 AM

Re original question

someone posted a video by coachsuzzane the other day showing "overpulling"
Or overpowering the pull

the answer is to maintian a steady constant pressure rather than overmuscle it

WFEGb 09-17-2018 08:20 AM

Hello MF,

sorry, can't get the relation to ZT's example. That's a really different kind of stroke than the one in Suzanne's pulling-hints. (Straight arm recovery, straigth arm pull (does she?), straight arm catch(is it?), straight arm push... Can we find these phases in a Mississippi Steamer... don't take that question serious(!))...

BTW, as Sclim posted, you have to build up the force from front to end as soft as possible. Otherwise you'll get an unwanted edge in movement when you start. And to get that, what Terry told:"Nevertheless how fast I swim, I never press hard..." seems to be a miracle.

Pressing firm but so softly, that water just wants to start moving away but doesn't, seems to be a skill being learned only with extreme patience and loooong time if not gifted as the highperformers seems to be. (In my case I have to think in decades, but I've to learn everything in somewhat hard work, because I can't find any wished talent presented from nature... hard, but very interesting. Learning FS is mirroring that..)

Best regards,
Werner

novaswimmer 09-17-2018 12:14 PM

Low slipfactor and little speed-variation seem to be results of just really good technique, good streamline, low drag, good (natural or induced) body fore-aft balance, good propulsion, etc. All the things that I've been struggling with all these years, LOL! So they are not really focal points per se. I don't think you necessarily strive for 'low slipfactor' (maybe some can intuitively), but it is the big payoff or the big end goal, when you get all those other pesky details under control.

Mushroomfloat 09-17-2018 05:09 PM

Had a closer look here, and some observations, there is quite a bit of KPN in the stroke.

The intermitant funny arm recovery is likely on breathing strokes
the pulling arm doesnt go back as far in order not to sabotage the front arm when breathing,
"in order for the lead arm to support the breath the pulling arm cant go back too far"

&
Its likely she putting the "umph at the front" and using a brief power tap and releasing the pull early, letting the arm wash back and flowing into the straight arm recovery pinkle out around waistband area.

Mushroomfloat 09-17-2018 05:15 PM

from 50secs v

https://youtu.be/MzOYJon47HE

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:13 PM



almost straight arm at finish. Maybe she hasnt much umph at the rear, but she surely has a normal finish.

"in order for the lead arm to support the breath the pulling arm cant go back too far"

how musdt I interpret this if she is almost extended at the rear? She contrasdicts her own swimming.

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:19 PM

there is not much specisal KPN in her stroke.
KPN has 6BK and is far more of the swimming on your edge with long high elbow pulls style of swimming.Timing is also more front quadrant.

The shown swimmer is more of the typical female rotary style with 2BK, although a pretty powerfull version.

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 66588)
Hello ZT,

:-) ... yes, and now let's all swim that way, and we will be elites at once...

You're near to Rued's(?) researches and his results with it. Doubtless your points are important, but they can't be the whole story (too much oversimplification this time?). Emerging questions (to myself?):

- How can she move the arm from your screen1 to screen2 without initiating bopping? Her kick won't help, it's too late for it. Must be an extemely fine-tuned movement.
- How can she hold her streamlined lateral balance with so minimal (nearly no) FQ? Though it looks as if she holds an upward spear (it isn't with her straight arms) a litlle longer than I suspected.
- Is her different recovery (right more relaxed than left) necessary for any part of her stroke?

Though the Slipfactor can't be the salvation solution. Rough calculation of my own with armlength and SPL led to 0.47 with half collarbone included to 0.77. Seems not bad, but I'm one of the average swimmers needing doubled time...

Best regards,
Werner

. No bobbing. She probably doenst pull like an animal in the first part of her armstroke.had a look again. indeed the power starts just before the arm is almost vertical. little downpushing.
Strokerate is high, so maybe she doesntst exite the bobing frequency.
And maybe sge counteracts it swomwhere else, have to take a look at that.

good balance with rotary style.
- Good kick technique
- naturally good body balance?
- speed helps
-probably good force feed on the arms during the pull/push
- good core control, good arms leg connection through core.

- differnt recovery.

She is a bit asymetrical. a bit like loping on the non breathing side, like Paltrinieru, Ledecky etc-
Not much , but visable. bigger kick also to power out of the breathing side and power that recoveryarm forward as a counterweight.

You misunderstood the slipfactors definition.
Its about the slippage of the arm in the part thats pressing water back, from catch to finish. You cant calculate slipfactor from DPS and armlength.
You have to measure it aginst the water, or a good background.

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novaswimmer (Post 66593)
Low slipfactor and little speed-variation seem to be results of just really good technique, good streamline, low drag, good (natural or induced) body fore-aft balance, good propulsion, etc. All the things that I've been struggling with all these years, LOL! So they are not really focal points per se. I don't think you necessarily strive for 'low slipfactor' (maybe some can intuitively), but it is the big payoff or the big end goal, when you get all those other pesky details under control.

yeah, but that means that slipfactor is an indication of general swim efficincy, especially if you can achive low slipfactor with a small paddle.(non optimal angled arms/small arms)

WFEGb 09-17-2018 08:28 PM

Hello ZT,

Quote:

...You cant calculate slipfactor from DPS and armlength...
Not for a single stroke but as estimated average:

SF = [SPL x (SW-Sh)-(PL-PO)]/(PL-PO)

SF: SlipFactor
SPL: Strokes Per Length
SW: SpanWidth
Sh: Shoulderwidth
PL: PoolLength
PO: PushOff

OK, uncertain is the amount of shoulder-shrugg (influences as Sh as from 0 [from left/right collarbone in swim direction] to 1*Sh [collarbone always rectangular to swim direction], think half Shoulderwidth is an acceptable approximation), and you have to include the length for catch-setting from front to full traction (in your example it is)... but even an "overgliding" is considered, because you have to pay it with acceleration and there the slip is included again...

Best regards,
Werner

WFEGb 09-18-2018 10:10 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Hello ZT,

just a remark. Shinji's Slipfactor in his MGFS-Video is around 0.29. Yes, it's not a competetion-stroke. What astonished me most: Seems he sets his catch- and first press-phase slower than his velocitiy is...

Best regards,
Werner

Zenturtle 09-19-2018 12:05 AM

when his hands moves forward in the water he isnt pressing back yet, so the starting point lies later/deeper, but Shinji could well have a good slipfactor.
He is super streamlined, he doesnt decelerate much between propulsive phases, so he can glide some time between strokes without too much speed variation.
He also has a good paddle shape, so the basics for good traction are there.


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