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-   -   straight arm traction (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9686)

novaswimmer 09-17-2018 12:14 PM

Low slipfactor and little speed-variation seem to be results of just really good technique, good streamline, low drag, good (natural or induced) body fore-aft balance, good propulsion, etc. All the things that I've been struggling with all these years, LOL! So they are not really focal points per se. I don't think you necessarily strive for 'low slipfactor' (maybe some can intuitively), but it is the big payoff or the big end goal, when you get all those other pesky details under control.

Mushroomfloat 09-17-2018 05:09 PM

Had a closer look here, and some observations, there is quite a bit of KPN in the stroke.

The intermitant funny arm recovery is likely on breathing strokes
the pulling arm doesnt go back as far in order not to sabotage the front arm when breathing,
"in order for the lead arm to support the breath the pulling arm cant go back too far"

&
Its likely she putting the "umph at the front" and using a brief power tap and releasing the pull early, letting the arm wash back and flowing into the straight arm recovery pinkle out around waistband area.

Mushroomfloat 09-17-2018 05:15 PM

from 50secs v

https://youtu.be/MzOYJon47HE

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:13 PM



almost straight arm at finish. Maybe she hasnt much umph at the rear, but she surely has a normal finish.

"in order for the lead arm to support the breath the pulling arm cant go back too far"

how musdt I interpret this if she is almost extended at the rear? She contrasdicts her own swimming.

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:19 PM

there is not much specisal KPN in her stroke.
KPN has 6BK and is far more of the swimming on your edge with long high elbow pulls style of swimming.Timing is also more front quadrant.

The shown swimmer is more of the typical female rotary style with 2BK, although a pretty powerfull version.

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by WFEGb (Post 66588)
Hello ZT,

:-) ... yes, and now let's all swim that way, and we will be elites at once...

You're near to Rued's(?) researches and his results with it. Doubtless your points are important, but they can't be the whole story (too much oversimplification this time?). Emerging questions (to myself?):

- How can she move the arm from your screen1 to screen2 without initiating bopping? Her kick won't help, it's too late for it. Must be an extemely fine-tuned movement.
- How can she hold her streamlined lateral balance with so minimal (nearly no) FQ? Though it looks as if she holds an upward spear (it isn't with her straight arms) a litlle longer than I suspected.
- Is her different recovery (right more relaxed than left) necessary for any part of her stroke?

Though the Slipfactor can't be the salvation solution. Rough calculation of my own with armlength and SPL led to 0.47 with half collarbone included to 0.77. Seems not bad, but I'm one of the average swimmers needing doubled time...

Best regards,
Werner

. No bobbing. She probably doenst pull like an animal in the first part of her armstroke.had a look again. indeed the power starts just before the arm is almost vertical. little downpushing.
Strokerate is high, so maybe she doesntst exite the bobing frequency.
And maybe sge counteracts it swomwhere else, have to take a look at that.

good balance with rotary style.
- Good kick technique
- naturally good body balance?
- speed helps
-probably good force feed on the arms during the pull/push
- good core control, good arms leg connection through core.

- differnt recovery.

She is a bit asymetrical. a bit like loping on the non breathing side, like Paltrinieru, Ledecky etc-
Not much , but visable. bigger kick also to power out of the breathing side and power that recoveryarm forward as a counterweight.

You misunderstood the slipfactors definition.
Its about the slippage of the arm in the part thats pressing water back, from catch to finish. You cant calculate slipfactor from DPS and armlength.
You have to measure it aginst the water, or a good background.

Zenturtle 09-17-2018 06:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by novaswimmer (Post 66593)
Low slipfactor and little speed-variation seem to be results of just really good technique, good streamline, low drag, good (natural or induced) body fore-aft balance, good propulsion, etc. All the things that I've been struggling with all these years, LOL! So they are not really focal points per se. I don't think you necessarily strive for 'low slipfactor' (maybe some can intuitively), but it is the big payoff or the big end goal, when you get all those other pesky details under control.

yeah, but that means that slipfactor is an indication of general swim efficincy, especially if you can achive low slipfactor with a small paddle.(non optimal angled arms/small arms)

WFEGb 09-17-2018 08:28 PM

Hello ZT,

Quote:

...You cant calculate slipfactor from DPS and armlength...
Not for a single stroke but as estimated average:

SF = [SPL x (SW-Sh)-(PL-PO)]/(PL-PO)

SF: SlipFactor
SPL: Strokes Per Length
SW: SpanWidth
Sh: Shoulderwidth
PL: PoolLength
PO: PushOff

OK, uncertain is the amount of shoulder-shrugg (influences as Sh as from 0 [from left/right collarbone in swim direction] to 1*Sh [collarbone always rectangular to swim direction], think half Shoulderwidth is an acceptable approximation), and you have to include the length for catch-setting from front to full traction (in your example it is)... but even an "overgliding" is considered, because you have to pay it with acceleration and there the slip is included again...

Best regards,
Werner

WFEGb 09-18-2018 10:10 AM

3 Attachment(s)
Hello ZT,

just a remark. Shinji's Slipfactor in his MGFS-Video is around 0.29. Yes, it's not a competetion-stroke. What astonished me most: Seems he sets his catch- and first press-phase slower than his velocitiy is...

Best regards,
Werner

Zenturtle 09-19-2018 12:05 AM

when his hands moves forward in the water he isnt pressing back yet, so the starting point lies later/deeper, but Shinji could well have a good slipfactor.
He is super streamlined, he doesnt decelerate much between propulsive phases, so he can glide some time between strokes without too much speed variation.
He also has a good paddle shape, so the basics for good traction are there.


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