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-   -   Weight on catch in a long stroke (http://www.totalimmersion.net/forum/showthread.php?t=9652)

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 07:28 PM

First 2 fingers lead the recovery
Like a pistol (hand shaped like a pistol)
v

Mushroomfloat 08-01-2018 07:29 PM

https://youtu.be/yIGFKbCKXzw

Mushroomfloat 08-03-2018 03:22 PM

I was watching the European championships today and nearly all the freestylers are using the karate chop exit / recovery and none were pushing all the way back.

With the exception of a few straight arm swimmers most strokes looked similar to what we are discussing here.

the difference between sprinters and distance was simply that the sprinters went in and hooked earlier.

Mushroomfloat 08-03-2018 03:23 PM

Lots of enter and sweep wide too.

Zenturtle 08-03-2018 10:40 PM

Maybe the evolution of the freestylestroke has finished. Everybody is taught a certain style and is swimming that way.

Even Oceanwalker who sort of claims to have come up with his own style, is simply swimming TI style as far as I can see. Looks damn close to the previous swimmer, with the same underwater `problems`.

Owalker 1
plaatje uploaden


Owalker 1a
upload foto

Owalker 2
ref nl

Mushroomfloat 08-03-2018 11:02 PM

yes

and they all seme to be taking their cues from KPN karlym pipes

this is all basically her stroke

now maybe she didnt invemt it as she site the aussie waterman stroke of thorpe etc

& Marc Evans seems to be the forerunner (good vids from him BTW)

KPN cites dave scott as sayimg breaststroke is the best way to learn how to set up the freestyle catch

i found i really is too

in a nutshell: forget about hand and forearm leave it loose
its all in the upper arm catch with the backside of the upperarm and karate chop out before you get stuck

Mushroomfloat 08-03-2018 11:07 PM

the elbow traces a teardrop pattern

just swap one for the other in a 3/4 catch up timing

(increase timing to sprint)

Mushroomfloat 08-03-2018 11:15 PM

"extend to the elbow and not the hand"

"keeping the hand & forearm loose in fromt of the elbow gives a nice high body position as the balse whips through"

v

Mushroomfloat 08-03-2018 11:16 PM

https://youtu.be/z59s13BVDrE

Zenturtle 08-03-2018 11:19 PM

What i find interesting is the typical dropped elbow and the broken wrist you see a lot, but not always with the almost catchup timing.

Here a TI swimmer who loads the low side just like in a more standard swimstroke, but dont sinks the arm into a catch shape with it, she just holds the arm firnly pointing forward, while still rolling that high shoulder on top of it. The arm only sinks a tiny tiny bit before power is fed in, but less than usual. ( The loading is most obvious in the front view.)
The rhytm is there, looks like sheilas loading and lengtening too, only not a super high elbow, more straight, but looks pretty smooth underwater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpxruDf3ld0

I liked her style before, but now i can see better why. Still think she will be more efficient if she goes to catch a few tenths of a second earlier.

contrast that with this swimmer, who has zero load on catch I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA2YtVdKiZI

It seems to me a large difference is the differnce in tone of the lower body from knees to elbow.(and not setting up catch etc bla bla)
This swimmrs low side is too relaxed. It looks sloppy. Also again that tendency for dropped elbow and broken wrist, when he snaps out his relaxation.
Cant be too relaxed in body tone sadly. There is no ground foundation, so the core has to be built as a foundation. That takes some semi static muscle tone and certain actions on top of that semi static toned vessel.
Wish it was differnt, but sorry, thats required. Just like you need tone to walk with good posture, Cant totally relax all those muscles....
When the timing is perfect you need les tension, but some is always required, only swimmers dont feel it anymore, just like you dont feel anymore the muscle action thats needed to be able to walk.
But watch 80 plus year olds walk, doesnt work so well anymore. Muscle action starts to drop below minimum effort level required.

daveblt 08-04-2018 01:29 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66180)
"extend to the elbow and not the hand"

"keeping the hand & forearm loose in fromt of the elbow gives a nice high body position as the balse whips through"

v


Yep, and as I always say enter pinky down will also help keep the arm free of tension.

Dave

daveblt 08-04-2018 01:57 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66182)
What i find interesting is the typical dropped elbow and the broken wrist you see a lot, but not always with the almost catchup timing.

Here a TI swimmer who loads the low side just like in a more standard swimstroke, but dont sinks the arm into a catch shape with it, she just holds the arm firnly pointing forward, while still rolling that high shoulder on top of it. The arm only sinks a tiny tiny bit before power is fed in, but less than usual. ( The loading is most obvious in the front view.)
The rhytm is there, looks like sheilas loading and lengtening too, only not a super high elbow, more straight, but looks pretty smooth underwater.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpxruDf3ld0

I liked her style before, but now i can see better why. Still think she will be more efficient if she goes to catch a few tenths of a second earlier.

contrast that with this swimmer, who has zero load on catch I think.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NA2YtVdKiZI

It seems to me a large difference is the differnce in tone of the lower body from knees to elbow.(and not setting up catch etc bla bla)
This swimmrs low side is too relaxed. It looks sloppy. Also again that tendency for dropped elbow and broken wrist, when he snaps out his relaxation.
Cant be too relaxed in body tone sadly. There is no ground foundation, so the core has to be built as a foundation. That takes some semi static muscle tone and certain actions on top of that semi static toned vessel.
Wish it was differnt, but sorry, thats required. Just like you need tone to walk with good posture, Cant totally relax all those muscles....
When the timing is perfect you need les tension, but some is always required, only swimmers dont feel it anymore, just like you dont feel anymore the muscle action thats needed to be able to walk.
But watch 80 plus year olds walk, doesnt work so well anymore. Muscle action starts to drop below minimum effort level required.





The second video looks a little like Shinji's stroke ?

Dave

Zenturtle 08-04-2018 07:15 AM

Yeah, I think he could be if he was more precise and mentally/physically active/ ontime.
His recovery and easy balance line looks like Shinji. A bit the same physical makeup I guess. Shinjis brother who smoked pot before his swim?

Maybe its just 2 differnt styles. Traci makes a rigid underwater extension,This is not a totally weightless arm on entering and extension. I think there is a little pressure under that arm, (weight on catch) also to feel the transition to catch better and forcing yourself to be right on top of the game.
Her balance is a bit on the edge front to back, she has to kick a bit energetic. Comes from a swimming background probably.

The other approach is to have a totally weightless arm,or even weight of the oncoming water on the arms top side, and that is triggering more the relax attitude, which maybe also gives a bit too much relaxation. That approach is TI I believe, so its also a matter of preference to a point, depending how fast you want to swim eventually. That is, you have to keep yourself pretty taut and precise if you want to swim fast.

Looks to me Shinji is a bit inbetween these 2 examples. He is precise, but less toned than most competetive swimmers, or in a positive way, more relaxed. I find his core a bit too relaxed. Legs dangle a bit behind the trunk too much for my liking. That starts to work against you if you want to swim faster with the same catchup timing.
Then more tone and smoother (and even more precise) timing becomes more critical.

Zenturtle 08-04-2018 07:58 PM

So how does weight on catch looks like in an avarage timed stroke, that is a stroke thats still front quadrant, but barely.
Here is an experienced swimmer, against a beginner with a catchup stroke.
The beginner has again a severely dropped elbow offcourse, but also notice the lack of total body connection when comparing the experienced swimmer with the beginner.

nc 1


nc 2


nc 3

Zenturtle 08-04-2018 07:59 PM

nc 4


nc 5


and here in real live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQi6U7FqtA

The beginner has a pretty good recovery, and it looks like he uses it with the underwaterside, but no, its all dissipated in a sloppy noodlelike something.
Should beginners try to swim with horizontal arm extension and catchup timing? Seems not the best idea.
TI solves this with a deeper spear, but that solution also has its drawbacks.
Yeah, finding the right timing for you. Takes time.

Mushroomfloat 08-08-2018 11:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66194)
nc 4


nc 5


and here in real live:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIQi6U7FqtA

The beginner has a pretty good recovery, and it looks like he uses it with the underwaterside, but no, its all dissipated in a sloppy noodlelike something.
Should beginners try to swim with horizontal arm extension and catchup timing? Seems not the best idea.
TI solves this with a deeper spear, but that solution also has its drawbacks.
Yeah, finding the right timing for you. Takes time.

Big realisation moment for me in the pool tonight,
Terry came into my head with that video you posted of "strong & stable shoulder blade on the lowside arm / relaxed & mobile shoulderblade on the high side arm"

and it worked a treat!

in the pics above the foreground swimmer has "coupled" his arms which means his lowside sweeps wide as the high side comes over

this is what i was working on for the last few weeks but now i think no,

forget the anchor leave that lead arm out and let it sit about 4-5 inches below the surface with a tensed stable shoulderblade (line from wrist to toes on that edge) & forget about it

switch focus to the highside & whip the recovery over with a relaxed shouldeblade

start rumning on the other edge

no need to lead with hip let them follow

Mushroomfloat 08-08-2018 11:24 PM

face down relaxed neck

(it works with face forward but restricts shoulder mobility somewhat)

Mushroomfloat 08-09-2018 12:46 AM

Arm coupling only works with high stroke rate shoulder driven or hybrid / true straight arm

the kinetic energy of coupling arms is reduced to near zero with hip driven freestyle

Zenturtle 08-09-2018 03:12 AM

yeah, you could be on to something,
HIgher strokerates makes you come in another territory. I dont know exactly.
Mostly swim with a pretty low strokerate.
pace 1.20- 1.30min /100m, 14-17 strokes/ 25 m. mostly interval 100m.Hardly ever reach 60 strokes/min and thats low for the other style to work I guess.
Flipping the arms over and right into catch at a higher strokerate is a style I always want to try more, but am a little addicted to reaching long.
So, what are you doing in the pool, to get a rough idea of your stroke.

Mushroomfloat 08-09-2018 02:21 PM

Some reading on coupling re shoulder driven & hip driven

http://www.triathlete.com/2015/04/tr...m-speed_115471

Mushroomfloat 08-09-2018 02:30 PM

And here:

http://lavamagazine.com/swimming-fas...ands-and-feet/

Basically coupling requires strike rates of 70-80 or above to work

Below that it makes more sense to expend the least ammount of energy on recovery and bend the arm.

Zenturtle 08-24-2018 10:59 PM

Watched this clip another dozen times to really understand what he is doing, and its very simple in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3ah7VNiUw

Its just what Stuart and other Ti coaches are saying all the time. the focus is not on the low side arm thats already in the water, but on transferring the roll into a forward spear and following that spearing line for a moment.
The low side arm is more or less without any pressure on it during that focus on spear.
In fact, its the opposite of the weight on catch technique.
Result is that the start of the actual pulling force is delayed until the body is almost flat.
From there the pulling force rises pretty steeply, using mostly the rear end of the underwater arm stroke for propulsion.
The steep rise in force causes the often seen tendency of the dropped elbow elbow/broken wrist at that point.
Its a roll-weight into spear style, instead of a weight on catch feeling, where the focus is more on transferring the weight into pressure under the low arm as soon as possible.
This roll into spear/no catch pressure style works better on relative low speeds is my opinion. At higher speeds you cant afford to not keep your finger on the trigger for more continuous traction taking over from one side to the other without too much gaps.
This weight on catch style needs more postural setting up tension and forward shoulder stabilisation effort, but its worth the effort in the end for a more powerfull smooth stroke for sustainable speeds above 1.30 min/100m.
Its a bit like Dan Empfield wrote earlier.
You have to put in a certain minimal effort level to be able to reach a certain efficiency at higher speeds.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/...Form_3273.html

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 12:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66388)
Watched this clip another dozen times to really understand what he is doing, and its very simple in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3ah7VNiUw

Its just what Stuart and other Ti coaches are saying all the time. the focus is not on the low side arm thats already in the water, but on transferring the roll into a forward spear and following that spearing line for a moment.
The low side arm is more or less without any pressure on it during that focus on spear.
In fact, its the opposite of the weight on catch technique.
Result is that the start of the actual pulling force is delayed until the body is almost flat.
From there the pulling force rises pretty steeply, using mostly the rear end of the underwater arm stroke for propulsion.
The steep rise in force causes the often seen tendency of the dropped elbow elbow/broken wrist at that point.
Its a roll-weight into spear style, instead of a weight on catch feeling, where the focus is more on transferring the weight into pressure under the low arm as soon as possible.
This roll into spear/no catch pressure style works better on relative low speeds is my opinion. At higher speeds you cant afford to not keep your finger on the trigger for more continuous traction taking over from one side to the other without too much gaps.
This weight on catch style needs more postural setting up tension and forward shoulder stabilisation effort, but its worth the effort in the end for a more powerfull smooth stroke for sustainable speeds above 1.30 min/100m.
Its a bit like Dan Empfield wrote earlier.
You have to put in a certain minimal effort level to be able to reach a certain efficiency at higher speeds.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/...Form_3273.html

Yes, i was doing this the other day in the pool and very quickly realised it is pretty lacklustre
im a fan of giving up the back end early & karate chopping out to get back to the front
"keeping the finger on the trigger"

This is too much decelerate & re accelerate "stop go" IMO

I find it better to keep the same wide stroke but keep a more continious arm action, still FQS and 3/4 catch up timing but just let go mid torso and get out

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 12:30 PM

Requires a good EVF set up though earlier in the stroke

Putting the emphasis on tge back end blows the triceps out pretty quick too

Zenturtle 08-25-2018 02:41 PM

what do you think of this backend of the stroke mush?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm755AF1w7o

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 03:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66397)
what do you think of this backend of the stroke mush?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hm755AF1w7o

Yeah i think the main thing is to blend the finish into the recovery in one smooth action, rather than the stop go action of a full pushback and restart fwd

Zenturtle 08-25-2018 05:01 PM

free image hosting

His hand is still vertical (hmm about 30 degrees tilted already) and pushing at hip height, so he has a pretty strong backend.
Transition to recovery smooth enough I guess, so I think this is a good compromise. Not too little, not too much backend push.
When relaxing the wrist hinge at the rear you can even push the water a bit down with the hand surface at the end instead of up, giving a tiny upward push at hip height relative to the shown action.
Dont know why nobody does that. Everybody is pushing water up, and the hips down, at the end.
I think focus lies more on the frontend generally. Dont focus on it myself either, but when you totally focus on the backend and forget the frontend for a while, you can feel a difference doing it one way or the other.

Danny 08-25-2018 06:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66388)
Watched this clip another dozen times to really understand what he is doing, and its very simple in the end.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_m3ah7VNiUw

Its just what Stuart and other Ti coaches are saying all the time. the focus is not on the low side arm thats already in the water, but on transferring the roll into a forward spear and following that spearing line for a moment.
The low side arm is more or less without any pressure on it during that focus on spear.
In fact, its the opposite of the weight on catch technique.
Result is that the start of the actual pulling force is delayed until the body is almost flat.
From there the pulling force rises pretty steeply, using mostly the rear end of the underwater arm stroke for propulsion.
The steep rise in force causes the often seen tendency of the dropped elbow elbow/broken wrist at that point.
Its a roll-weight into spear style, instead of a weight on catch feeling, where the focus is more on transferring the weight into pressure under the low arm as soon as possible.
This roll into spear/no catch pressure style works better on relative low speeds is my opinion. At higher speeds you cant afford to not keep your finger on the trigger for more continuous traction taking over from one side to the other without too much gaps.
This weight on catch style needs more postural setting up tension and forward shoulder stabilisation effort, but its worth the effort in the end for a more powerfull smooth stroke for sustainable speeds above 1.30 min/100m.
Its a bit like Dan Empfield wrote earlier.
You have to put in a certain minimal effort level to be able to reach a certain efficiency at higher speeds.

https://www.slowtwitch.com/Training/...Form_3273.html

OK ZT, which of these two styles would you say Terry is swimming in the underwater shots of his stroke? His forward hand is almost beneath his shoulder when the upside hand first enters the water. Is he putting weight on the forward arm? Is Terry's style different from what Stuart is recommending in your opinion?

I think what Terry is doing is moving his forward arm down before the upside hand enters, but I suspect he does it at a slow enough rate so that he is not putting any pressure on the low side arm until his up side arm is entering the water. That said, I haven't really been able to copy this style. Lately I've been focusing on what Stuart recommends and I really like it because it allows me to swim distance in a relaxed fashion. One might argue that to eliminate slowing down between strokes one must simply increase the stroke rate. If Stuart is reading this, I would be interested in his thoughts on this.

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 07:04 PM

If you want to eliminate slowing down between strokes give up the back end
(karate chop out like butterfly and get back to tee front)

Also dont rotate too much as it takes longer to go from one side all the way to the other.

Zenturtle 08-25-2018 07:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66401)
OK ZT, which of these two styles would you say Terry is swimming in the underwater shots of his stroke? His forward hand is almost beneath his shoulder when the upside hand first enters the water. Is he putting weight on the forward arm? Is Terry's style different from what Stuart is recommending in your opinion?

I think what Terry is doing is moving his forward arm down before the upside hand enters, but I suspect he does it at a slow enough rate so that he is not putting any pressure on the low side arm until his up side arm is entering the water. That said, I haven't really been able to copy this style. Lately I've been focusing on what Stuart recommends and I really like it because it allows me to swim distance in a relaxed fashion. One might argue that to eliminate slowing down between strokes one must simply increase the stroke rate. If Stuart is reading this, I would be interested in his thoughts on this.


Danny,
I have said this before, Terry is the most non TI like TI swimmerI can find in all the youtube TI footage on internet.
When looking at that pace footage he could almost sell SS stuff.
At the edge of front quadrant and a pretty rotary and fluient style.

ok where was that footage? Yep here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbZlw55Fes

what is Terry doing here?
Looks to me he has a little weight on catch here, but it seems most of his pressure is coming form catching his rotational inertia with his arms. He doesnt moves his shoulder so much forward together with his arm and doesnt have as much core loading/tension as a lot of elite swimmers use, which makes the weight transfer less obvious. He is also bobbing a bit from the straightish arm mechanics at the higher speeds.
His patient arm is not a motionless dead arm. Its just moving slowly to a better angle to grab water after entry with a little bit pressure under it, and increasing the pressure relatively gradually compared to other more catchup style TI swimmers.
On the whole it looks very much standard swimming style with a 2BK.


Regarding pressure under the arm, it looks to me Terry is doing his personal version of active glide, perhaps a little more weightless at his lower speeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE

Do you agree with my description of the difference between the shown TI kraulstroke and the weight on catch stroke?

Zenturtle 08-25-2018 08:36 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66402)
If you want to eliminate slowing down between strokes give up the back end
(karate chop out like butterfly and get back to tee front)

Also dont rotate too much as it takes longer to go from one side all the way to the other.


HMM. And if you dont have a strong anchor at the front (like most, not being Karlyn Pipes etc), and no backend, what do you have left?

Danny 08-25-2018 09:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66403)
Danny,
I have said this before, Terry is the most non TI like TI swimmerI can find in all the youtube TI footage on internet.
When looking at that pace footage he could almost sell SS stuff.
At the edge of front quadrant and a pretty rotary and fluient style.

ok where was that footage? Yep here it is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fqbZlw55Fes

what is Terry doing here?
Looks to me he has a little weight on catch here, but it seems most of his pressure is coming form catching his rotational inertia with his arms. He doesnt moves his shoulder so much forward together with his arm and doesnt have as much core loading/tension as a lot of elite swimmers use, which makes the weight transfer less obvious. He is also bobbing a bit from the straightish arm mechanics at the higher speeds.
His patient arm is not a motionless dead arm. Its just moving slowly to a better angle to grab water after entry with a little bit pressure under it, and increasing the pressure relatively gradually compared to other more catchup style TI swimmers.
On the whole it looks very much standard swimming style with a 2BK.


Regarding pressure under the arm, it looks to me Terry is doing his personal version of active glide, perhaps a little more weightless at his lower speeds.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KILRRbCzwUE

Do you agree with my description of the difference between the shown TI kraulstroke and the weight on catch stroke?

ZT, I prefer this film of Terry, because it shows his stroke from underwater.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
That said, it appears to me in the link you gave above that he starts his catch earlier as his spl increases which isn't surprising.

I agree with you that Terry's stroke looks a lot like the film referred to as active glide in the link you gave above. The skill for doing this seems very difficult to me. Right now, I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch, because if I don't do this I find I am dropping my elbow. The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow. One thing at a time. I still need to work on the stroke as I understand Stuart to be describing it. Once I feel I have internalized that (which will take some time) I may start working on the subtleties that Terry seems to add on top of this, if I can figure out how he really does it.

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 10:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66406)
HMM. And if you dont have a strong anchor at the front (like most, not being Karlyn Pipes etc), and no backend, what do you have left?

I'am a big KPN / Marc Evans fan hence working on the fromt end, V line / wingline etc

You dont need super flexible shoulders its a tiny adduction just enough to get the elbow sort of on top, the hand and forearm articulate around the elbow inwards & outwards

inwards for the catch, outwards for the recovery

If you want i can show you a 1hr long private training session she did with an ironman triathlete where its all explained.

Zenturtle 08-25-2018 11:01 PM

yeah, show me that footage...

Marc Evans isnt so popular anymore,(talks too much haha), but he has some good stuff.

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 11:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66411)
yeah, show me that footage...

Marc Evans isnt so popular anymore,(talks too much haha), but he has some good stuff.

Haha he does rabbit on but he knows some stuff! i like his vids

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 11:13 PM

Heres the KPN vid
its 1hr 7mins long but worth watching
the bit im on about is at 47mins +

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 11:14 PM

Here v
https://youtu.be/DRb1QuIEH1E

Zenturtle 08-25-2018 11:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Danny (Post 66408)
ZT, I prefer this film of Terry, because it shows his stroke from underwater.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hC8ZZZhabp4
That said, it appears to me in the link you gave above that he starts his catch earlier as his spl increases which isn't surprising.

I agree with you that Terry's stroke looks a lot like the film referred to as active glide in the link you gave above. The skill for doing this seems very difficult to me. Right now, I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch, because if I don't do this I find I am dropping my elbow. The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow. One thing at a time. I still need to work on the stroke as I understand Stuart to be describing it. Once I feel I have internalized that (which will take some time) I may start working on the subtleties that Terry seems to add on top of this, if I can figure out how he really does it.

I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch

do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?

The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow

I think I know what you mean by that feeling. I remember going from a more catchup stroke to trying to putting more weight on the low side arm before the high arm entered the water.This was indeed hard to do without dropping the elbow. Surprisingly difficult in fact, even if i wanted to just get that arm just a little bit down and in shape before the other arm landed.
This was because the arm wasnt in the right setup to start with anyway.
It was extended, but not with a stable shoulder on top of it and already with a bit of a dropped elbow, but that wasnt not noticable in the weightless extension.
When putting pressure on this arm its bound to collapse into a dropped elbow,
and desperately bending the wrist to hold some pressure on the hand for gods sake.

The setup starts already with the recovery in fact.
Elbow lead recovery which is discussed so often helps, but also bringing the whole shoulder forward almost over the ears mentally, while rotating the elbow up into the extension. And extending more with that shoulder than stretching the arm.
That arm is best kept slightly bend in a slight clawing posture right into the inward rotated shoulder,lifted up and forward touching the jawline, with stretched out lat muscles and other muscle ties that want to pull that shoulder back into its normal place.
Now its possible to load that low side wing, releasing the shoulders lifting muscles and loading the muscles from shoulder to ribcage in a semi static manner. Just let the forearm sink a bit to start the downsweep, and let the muscles from shoulder to ribcage do the first work in the pull, taking that whole static paddle along.

You can already practice this procedure and the relative armtiming in front of a mirror.
In my case it was exactly this timing that was more difficult than pure catchup or pure windmilling.
It needs some time to get used to it, and also requires special shoulder flexibility and local strenght to make it feel natural, which it isnt offcourse.

Still working on it everytime in the pool, veeerrrry slooooowly going better and better

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Zenturtle (Post 66415)
I am just focusing on letting the shoulders rotate enough before I go into a catch

do you mean you go to a lower shoulder angle (more flat) before going to catch? Thats what I was describing as the TI way ?

The difficulty in Terry's stroke (to me) is how to start moving the down side arm downward before the up side hand goes in and not to drop my elbow

I think I know what you mean by that feeling. I remember going from a more catchup stroke to trying to putting more weight on the low side arm before the high arm entered the water.This was indeed hard to do without dropping the elbow. Surprisingly difficult in fact, even if i wanted to just get that arm just a little bit down and in shape before the other arm landed.
This was because the arm wasnt in the right setup to start with anyway.
It was extended, but not with a stable shoulder on top of it and already with a bit of a dropped elbow, but that wasnt not noticable in the weightless extension.
When putting pressure on this arm its bound to collapse into a dropped elbow,
and desperately bending the wrist to hold some pressure on the hand for gods sake.
The setup starts already with the recovery in fact.
Elbow lead recovery which is discussed so often helps, but also bringing the whole shoulder forward almost over the ears while rotating the elbow up into the extension. And extending more with that shoulder than stretching the arm.
That arm is best kept slightly bend in a slight clawing posture right into the inward rotated shoulder braced to ribcage and touching the jawline.
Now its possible to load that low side wing, or just let the forearm sink a bit to start the downsweep.

I knife out pinkie down and use the weight on catch to kick the elbow out (and retract the scapula nicely) then i can flip the forearm down into catch.
it goes deeper as you knife out pinkie down and deeper still when you kick the elbow out

Mushroomfloat 08-25-2018 11:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mushroomfloat (Post 66416)
I knife out pinkie down and use the weight on catch to kick the elbow out (and retract the scapula nicely) then i can flip the forearm down into catch.
it goes deeper as you knife out pinkie down and deeper still when you kick the elbow out

This is KPN


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