Comments on: Dropping Elbow at Forward Extension

By: Max

Max — Thu, 11 Dec 2014 16:22:00 +0000

Hi,
I’m a beginner swimmer struggling with a dropped elbow problem. I have a question regarding the “Spearing to 3 o’clock target”. Are you referring to the target for the elbow pointing to the side of the pool? What about the target for the hand (depth, etc.) Thanks for the advice!
–Max

By: CoachMatHudson

CoachMatHudson — Mon, 12 Aug 2013 08:24:16 +0000

Great discussion. We could (and should) write volumes more on this!

During a workshop or lesson, sometimes I stand on deck and demonstrate the stroke cycle with one arm and have the students keep an eye on my elbow – we can observe that the elbow stays pointed out during the entire stroke cycle – the angle is constant and therefore the shoulder remains stable. The angle of the elbow is controlled at the shoulder joint and held steady. I point out that one of the great risks for shoulder injury is to load the shoulder and then twist it (as in the catch with a dropped elbow), or to whip and twist (as in a straight arm recovery, where the palm changes orientation on its way forward) – only lucky shoulders survive those patterns.

This is the beauty of all the TI drill pieces fitting together – the correct spear entry position has the elbow already facing out. Spear the hand to target with that ‘slide the arm over the VW hood’ (or as I say, to coincide with the Catch concepts ‘hug the top hemisphere of a pilates ball of water molecules’) and the elbow remains pointing outward even as the arm is extended fully and straight (I need to make a short video of this). At the chosen moment, the elbow stays high and slides outward, the hand stays on track and drops down to perfect catch position with forearm and palm gripping the pilates ball of water molecules. All the way through the catch and hold phase (rather than the ‘pull and push’ phase) the elbow remains pointed outward, and at the hip, lifts and quietly pulls the hand out of the water. There is minimal twisting in the shoulder joint in the entire stroke cycle when the elbow is trained to stay pointing outward the entire time.

To a swimmer with old habits it can feel a bit awkward at first, but to a formerly shoulder-injured competitive swimmer (like me and so many others) it is marvelous, injury-free stroke cycle pattern.

By: Carlos

Carlos — Fri, 09 Aug 2013 16:15:04 +0000

Todd, my misconception about the form came from reading the old TI book which emphasized the streamlining or lengthening the vessel without detailing the elbow angle. My source of TI learning was this book for ling time until I started searching TI web site, new DVDS and attending a workshop. I get this way: there is no really straight line: the hands bend downward, the elbow “bend toward the side of the pool” and they are a consequence of correcting the three issues pointed by coach Stuart.
Summer is still here…

By: CoachStuartMcDougal

CoachStuartMcDougal — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 23:35:05 +0000

Hi Carlos, Great to hear you have minimized the sources of dropping elbow! And good question. Yes, fwd spearing arm wide and deep to 3 o’clock (or as Coach Todd noted sliding hand down VW Bug hood is great visual), you’ve taken pressure off of the smaller shoulder muscles and rotator, and engaged the large muscle groups in the core/back, the lats and traps (mostly lats). I wouldn’t focus too much on muscle groups, although it’s great to feel and validating when the big muscles are engaged. Primarily focus on the three main points to resolve the dropped elbow, flatten rotation swinging recovery elbow wide, land on wide shoulder width tracks, spear deep to 3 o’clock. The large muscle groups will engage as a consequence of correct position. Having said that, if you have shoulder pain while swimming, most likely you’re putting too much pressure on rotator from incorrect body and spearing arm position (scooping toward or laying recovery arm flat on surface). I have a torn rotator cuff shoulder injury 15 years ago or so (not swimming related, but ice hockey), my right shoulder reminds me in an instant when I’m entering in narrow and out of postion :-). Hope that makes sense and answers your question.

Happy Swimming!

Stuart

By: Carlos

Carlos — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 23:20:46 +0000

Todd, I may not be getting the fine details. It may be due to my broken English. I get this way: If the arms are fully extended (even with the fingers pointed downward), the elbow is locked and from there, the tendency (usually)is to drop. When you say that the arms are supposed to be fully extended, you mean all the time or just before place the elbow in the VW position? Your analogy of reaching for an object in the back of the top shelf puts the elbow in a higher position in relation to the hand. So, I go back to my point: should this position be achieved after the entry, when the elbow is fully extended or should the elbow not be fully extended or locked at all?
Thanks again Carlos

By: CoachToddE

CoachToddE — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 22:26:39 +0000

Carlos,
Good question. In your question I think you mean “weren’t the arms supposed to be full extended” and the answer is yes. The dropped elbow occurs more often than not in my opinion because of the hand led recovery as previously stated. I’ve also observed that reaching with the hand for full extension of the arm tends to lock out the elbow, rotating the humerus in an abduction action, making the pointy part of the elbow or “eyeball” point downwards. At this position the forearm and hand tend to rise back up towards the surface creating the scoop or stop sign with the hand. The hand does enter and lead the spearing arm to this extension. However, the final extension and reach occurs through extending the shoulder girdle/axillary forward to achieve that length. Try reaching for an object on the back of top shelf by locking out your arm by reaching with the hand and then again by reaching up and then extending the arm through the axillary. You can reach approx 2-4 inches more by extending through the axillary. This does lengthen the vessel but keeps the elbow up in the VW Hood position. The hands are extended and relaxed in a natural cup position where reaching with the hands tends to put tension in the hand through the fingers as well. Hope this answers your question.

By: Carlos

Carlos — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 22:22:37 +0000

Stuart, this is for you: Somehow when I got my stroke at good form, thus minimizing the three major sources of elbow dropping as you describes I feel that my trapezius and lats are doing a good work. Why is that? Should I focus on this muscles or focus on something else that is causing the form the hit right?
Thanks, Carlos

By: Carlos

Carlos — Thu, 08 Aug 2013 07:50:12 +0000

Todd, Can you detail more about the point of reaching with hands versus through axillary? Wasn’t the hands suppose to be fulled extended at the initial stages of entering water? to “lengthen the vessel”?

By: CoachToddE

CoachToddE — Mon, 05 Aug 2013 21:55:47 +0000

I didn’t take Dave’s comment as slower tempo or overgliding as the root cause but that the overreaching that is sometimes strived for causes the elbow to drop which it does if you make of reaching with the hands versus through the axillary. The position of the VW Hood puts the elbow (eyeball) at the side of the pool. I just pointed this out as another analogy to use when some can’t get the VW Hood analogy to have in your tool box for teaching.

By: CoachStuartMcDougal

CoachStuartMcDougal — Mon, 05 Aug 2013 18:52:40 +0000

Thanks CoachTodd! It was enjoyable to write about since I see this error daily, and more often than not – is misdiagnosed. I do like Dave Scott’s visual of the ‘eyeball’, but it leads the swimmer to focus on wrong part of their body – the elbow. The elbow will be in the right position as a consequence of correct rotation & recovery arm position. I was a little disappointed that Dave’s remedy was also to increase turnover suggesting a slower tempo or “over gliding” was the root cause of a dropping elbow. In his defence I think Dave just missed this one – the source is not so obvious and easy to miss from the deck. And YES – if we just leave the elbow alone, the elbow remains pointed to the side of the pool above the hand throughout the entire stroke cycle as a result of correct recovery arm (above and below surface) and body rotation/position – what we teach in TI.

Happy Swimming!

Stuart