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  #51  
Old 08-01-2011
Rhoda Rhoda is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
...Sun Yang is the new TI poster boy. (No we are not claiming him as a TI swimmer, only as a demonstration that longer strokes ARE the way to superior swimming.
I was thinking as I watched this race that he looked very TI-like. Of course, on other online swim forums, people are saying things like "Imagine how much faster he could go if he kicked more." That the other swimmers were doing a lot more kicking and not coming close to him seems to have escaped their notice.
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  #52  
Old 08-01-2011
aerogramma aerogramma is offline
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Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
Of course there is nothing revolutionary about Sun's stroke. He just does it extremely well and has a near ideal physique for it. I'm not sure how close a stocky septuagenarian can get to that style. ;-)
according to the tv commentator Sun and Hackett share the same coach
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  #53  
Old 08-01-2011
dshen dshen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
Sun Yang is the new TI poster boy. (No we are not claiming him as a TI swimmer, only as a demonstration that longer strokes ARE the way to superior swimming.
Terry,

I have been working towards a race and using the TT to prepare. My goal has been to gradually raise the tempo and practice relaxing and maintaining proper form. So far, I've made it to 1.08s where I find my 50s are still getting faster. However, once I move past 1.08s I find that my 50s are slowing down quite a bit, and even slower than 1.08s. So faster SR doesn't necessarily mean faster times!

But your statement intrigues me above, that longer strokes are the way to superior swimming. It would seem that when my TT goes faster, a few things happen:

1. My ability to recover between left and right arm strokes reduces exponentially. It's amazing how sensitive that is to minute drops in tempo.

However, training with the TT means I can change that week over week which is pretty amazing.

2. In order to achieve speed, I find the limiting factors are:

a. My hip connection to the spear is diminished, as I'm trying to keep up with the TT but I can't seem to generate the same authority in the spear with the hip.

b. My hip rotation is diminished in order to keep up with the TT. I find that a tiny bit more hip rotation means I can get a little more oomph in a spear. But hip rotation is lowered as the TT interval is diminished.

c. In reference to 1. above, each stroke has less force pulling since I'm tiring faster. With less pulling force, I diminish my speed when compared to pulling with more force.

d. My pull also shortens in an attempt to keep up with the TT, while I get tired and can't pull back fast enough to maintain a SL from earlier when I am less tired.

e. The recovering arm must also move very quickly forward. Getting tired can make this slow down.

Is the goal to then train such that at higher tempos:

1. maintain SL, which means a faster pull to make the tempo interval.

2. As I maintain SL, I must also train to maintain the force of the pull. Simply swishing my arm fast through the water doesn't have enough effect.

3. I also have to work on maintaining the authority of the hip's contribution to the spear/pull.

Thoughts? Any other insight you could share about training at higher tempos and actually getting faster versus just getting tired faster?

Also, my goal to reach higher tempos is driven by the fact that my next race is in OW and in choppy waters, I am challenged to swim at lower tempos as the waves batter my body...

Thanks in advance!
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  #54  
Old 08-01-2011
terry terry is offline
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Originally Posted by Lawrence View Post
Faced with admitting your life's work will not produce glory, perhaps the only alternative is denial.

Cochrane will have to swim the 1500m ten seconds faster next year <snip> it is clear that Cochrane's only hope of winning in London 2012 is that Sun gets ill or injured.
I think this misses the real point of competitive athletics, which is not to win but to give the very best of which you are capable. When you live this ideal, you can only be inspired, not discouraged, to see a peer expand the sense of what is possible.

I was never a dominant athlete, so I have had countless opportunities to be gobsmacked by the performances of those who do have the gift to achieve dominance. At Masters Nationals this year, some performances by people in my 60-64 age group were so impressive, I immediately revised upward my sense of what is possible personally.

I know there's no chance I'll ever swim as fast as they did -- I couldn't do so 40 years ago as a highly trained college swimmer. But their swims did cause me to set my own goals for next season beyond what I did this year, despite that I'll be a year older. And I'm excited about the new sense of purpose those goals have brought. I've already lost 10 lbs and gotten stronger as a result.

Ryan Cochrane did not get to where he is, nor go as fast as 14:40 without having an extraordinary level of self-confidence and determination. I don't doubt for a second his sincerity in saying Sun Yang is beatable. And he would never wish for SY to be injured to make it easier.
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Last edited by terry : 08-01-2011 at 04:18 PM.
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  #55  
Old 08-01-2011
terry terry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshen View Post
It would seem that when my TT goes faster, a few things happen:
David
As a tech guy, you'll appreciate the following:
1) Your Tempo is a Data Point
2) Your SPL at any given Tempo is a Data Point.
2) Every sensation you experience when you approach or cross your current threshold of 1.08 is also a Data Point.

The more data points you have the better your information and the more targeted your efforts can be.

Key tenets of Mastery, Deliberate Practice and Flow are
i) Be error-focused. Constantly practice in ways calculated to expose weak points.
ii) When you find an error or weak point, develop strategies to strengthen them.

All those sensations you experience at or below 1.08 are things to focus on improving as you patiently work your Tempo Threshold to 1.07, 1.06, . . .

As you improve them, you'll reduce then eliminate the extra strokes, and your times will continue improving as you continue increasing Tempo.

Just a month ago I was hitting a point of diminishing returns above 1.00. Since then I've improved my tempo threshold down to .95. I feel as if .90 by Labor Day is not out of the question.

PS: The process you are describing will produce intuition that will be invaluable to your clients when you earn your Coach Certification.
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  #56  
Old 08-01-2011
dobarton dobarton is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by dshen View Post
Terry,

I have been working towards a race and using the TT to prepare. My goal has been to gradually raise the tempo and practice relaxing and maintaining proper form. So far, I've made it to 1.08s where I find my 50s are still getting faster. However, once I move past 1.08s I find that my 50s are slowing down quite a bit, and even slower than 1.08s. So faster SR doesn't necessarily mean faster times!

I could not agree more with all your observations. The trick seems to be to use the TT to do exactly the same thing at 1.07 as you do at 1.08 secs. Synchronizing hip drive and spear, setting the catch perfectly, timing the re-entry of the spearing arm, shaping the recovering arm perfectly, kicking at the perfect time to assist the spearing arm to move forward... The faster your stroke, the more perfectly timed all these components must be while still doing so with grace, balance and streamline!!
Your observations are spot on!!
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  #57  
Old 08-01-2011
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RobM77 View Post
So whilst TI has been great at teaching me to swim properly, now that I want to be competitive over sub 1500 metre distances I would be better off abandoning TI and seeking more conventional coaching methods?
I personally think TI is very conventional.

There might be some minor variations in the depth of the head position, 2 beat vs 6 beat kicking styles, amount of rotation etc, but overall I think any successfull swimming teaching methodology focuses on the same basic principles like balance, streamlining, catch, rotation etc... and TI is no different.
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  #58  
Old 08-01-2011
Lawrence Lawrence is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by terry View Post
I think this misses the real point of competitive athletics, which is not to win but to give the very best of which you are capable. When you live this ideal, you can only be inspired, not discouraged, to see a peer expand the sense of what is possible.
I suppose the real point of competitive athletics depends on who you ask. In my experience, athletes almost always say winning is more important than breaking records. And Grant Hackett himself seemed somewhat less than inspired by what Sun Yang did this weekend:

In Hackett's mind it was a foregone conclusion that Yang would one day break his long-standing 1500m mark.

"I am personally not disappointed but it's sad for Australia to lose any record," Hackett said last night. "It's a great swim by Sun Yang. It's a hard race."


(http://www.heraldsun.com.au/sport/su...-1226105609282)
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  #59  
Old 08-01-2011
Richardsk Richardsk is offline
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In my opinion nationalism is silly and even sillier in sport. Naturally Australians are proud of their swimming history and like to see Australians win medals and set records, and other nations are the same, but isn't it better to just rejoice in a wonderful performance and if you are capable of it aspire to emulate it?
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  #60  
Old 08-01-2011
Rincewind Rincewind is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richardsk View Post
In my opinion nationalism is silly and even sillier in sport. Naturally Australians are proud of their swimming history and like to see Australians win medals and set records, and other nations are the same, but isn't it better to just rejoice in a wonderful performance and if you are capable of it aspire to emulate it?
Not really, its that same as rooting for your college or high school team. You would rather they won or set some record than another team.

By the same token I am sure Hackett would be the 1st to congratulate Sun on breaking his record, but naturally he would've been happier if it was his team mate who broke it.
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